Unicorns season: Prince of Persia for the A8!

[_The Doctor__]

if the loader tries each divisor, and falls back on failure it will work for everyone as well.... false choices by you it would seem

[_The Doctor__]

Yes, as it would seem we can only have paper tape, and cassette versions, maybe 80something k or less disk, and my lord cartridge at 16k... better make that less than 48k max on memory usage well even less... and forget those GTIA colors...

Edited February 16, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[+Stephen]

Just now, _The Doctor__ said:

Yes, it would seem, we can only have paper tape, and cassette versions, maybe 80k or less disk, and my lord cartridge at 16k

It would seem Antonia with 4MB is OK though.  Also, non standard CPUs are also fine which is odd, given his penchant for using every un-documented opcode in existence just because he can.

[_The Doctor__]

I had to up available disk capacity because 'loaders'

 

hey wait....

    xbios is a soft based replacement of sorts in and of itself, isn't it?   irony!

Edited February 16, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, xxl said:

How to load OS for Atari 800? My friend (an American who wrote Atari programs many years ago) has such a computer and does not want to change it and for him it is the only real Atari.

Very true, in both counts: loading OS and 800 being the real McCoy, the "boss". My highest regards to your friend.

 

That brings us back to the cartridge-avenue... but even there, you should consider that there are oversized/overweight carts out-there that fail to meet 800 (and 1200XL) mech. specs... and that is a grave offense, in my retro-citizenship book. Subject to immediate termination from my list-of-vendors, says my inner-psychopath. I have those carts here, and it is just infuriating to see how easily they could have been designed to fit on the 800 and 1200XL, just as they fit on my 800XL's.

 

 

 

 

[Irgendwer]

54 minutes ago, xxl said:

It may work for you, but it does not work for me, while the standard ATR + CART will work 100% for everyone.

It might work for everyone technically, but a SIO solution can be more attractive (or even possible) regarding pricing.

[Mr Robot]

1 hour ago, xxl said:

do not be nervous, the conclusion is that I proved to you that the solution you proposed is unreliable. It may work for you, but it does not work for me, while the standard ATR + CART will work 100% for everyone.

The cart won't work on my 576NUC+, it doesn't have a cart slot. It can load Pokey0 from Fujinet though!

[ivop]

4 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Divisor 0 works consistently using Hias' driver and a geniune FTDI SIO2PC USB adapter on every single machine I have tested. You might have to snip some caps on the SIO data lines on some machines first, but sometimes not.

I should have been more clear. Anything below div6 is a lottery for real hardware computers connected to real hardware drives with upgrades, and drive emulators. There are so many combinations, and most don't work at div0. Here you name one device that works consistently on every single machine you have tested. And then you say you might have to snip some caps. Or sometimes not

 

I think Lotharek's SIO hub proves that the signal can be cleaned up outside the machine, and probably work across the whole line of 8-bit machines.

 

Fujinet was mentioned in this thread. I have not tested it yet, but hopefully it can cope with this without having to modify the computer. Might be that part of its circuitry and/or the ESP Rx/Tx lines mitigate this?

 

And then there's 8N2 at div0 that improves performance when 8N1 does not work at all and stutter at div0. But that's still a software "solution".

 

TL;DR New SIO devices should include the same signal "cleaning" Lotharek's SIO hub does

Edited February 16, 2021 by ivop

[ivop]

52 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

The cart won't work on my 576NUC+, it doesn't have a cart slot. It can load Pokey0 from Fujinet though!

In the end, it doesn't really matter at which divisor the game loads. When there's a disk version, the user and its hardware decide

 

But doesn't the 576NUC+ emulate a cart? I believe it does, with all sorts of banking schemes.

 

A banked cart version of PoP will obviously be the fastest, but that does not exclude a disk version.

 

Or tape?

[Mr Robot]

13 minutes ago, ivop said:

But doesn't the 576NUC+ emulate a cart? I believe it does, with all sorts of banking schemes.

No it's an SIO only machine (and the SIO is a 15pin dsub with an adapter)

A cart port is possible and something I'm looking at adding to it but presently, internal fujinet or anything you want to plug into SIO.

 

[Faicuai]

 

23 minutes ago, ivop said:

I think Lotharek's SIO hub proves that the signal can be cleaned up outside the machine, and probably work across the whole line of 8-bit machines.

 

This is correct!

 

I only believe in systemic upgrades, and this is exactly one of them... where 2+2=5, because it not only cleans up SIO's physical topology mess, but it also brings Div. 1 and/or 0 to almost ANYTHING connected to it, and without ANY changes or surgery on your computer, drives. etc... As soon as I settled it at the heart of my SIO network, all my host A8 machines and Nuxx Drive starting singing music to my ears, just like that. DIV 1/0 all day long, with absolutely no HW changes anywhere.

 

I have been using them for quite some time now, and I wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone reading. It is a MUST have piece, plug-and-play, peace-of-mind hardware.

 

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, ivop said:

I should have been more clear. Anything below div6 is a lottery for real hardware computers connected to real hardware drives with upgrades, and drive emulators. There are so many combinations, and most don't work at div0. Here you name one device that works consistently on every single machine you have tested. And then you say you might have to snip some caps. Or sometimes not

No serial floppy disk drive I am aware of supports anything near 127KB/s. I am asserting that SIO2PC (FTDI) works on every machine I have tested. Several 600XLs attain divisor 0 with SIO caps present, and many other machines don't have the caps in the first place. So the notion that hardware modifications are required or that results are inconsistent does not tally with my experience. Anyone capable of using cutters can remove caps. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by flashjazzcat

[rensoup]

I initially thought that xbios loaded slower than stock 1050 speed... but that's not the case. It would be nice if it supported Happy speed if the user has one... not sure if it does ?

 

[+Stephen]

32 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

No serial floppy disk drive I am aware of supports anything near 127KB/s. I am asserting that SIO2PC (FTDI) works on every machine I have tested. Several 600XLs attain divisor 0 with SIO caps present, and many other machines don't have the caps in the first place. So the notion that hardware modifications are required or that results are inconsistent does not tally with my experience. Anyone capable of using cutters can remove caps. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

Well now, don't forget.  There seems to be this issue at play:
1 - You or I say we have machines where something works - and we are basically told "fuck off - you are the exception".  We are also dirty heathens that modified our machines.  OMG - how dare we not conform to the original 1979 designs, as they were etched in stone, never to be changed.

2 - Other folks say something doesn't work, and whoa brother.  Full stop.  If they said it's broken, well then it's broken - they are meant to be hailed as gods, because their experience trumps all others.

 

Example #1 - this very thread.  More people demonstrated working hardware than did broken hardware.  BUT - the broken hardware "wins" the argument at all costs.  Change the argument, change the parameters, move the goalpost, etc.

[rensoup]

Regarding disk support:

 

The game is disk based because I wanted the port to match the original' specs: 128KB RAM + floppies as well as push the A8 (and I didn't know carts were such a big thing nowadays ?)

A cart version blurs the line and people unfamiliar with the tech might say that the A8 version is better because it uses ROM.

A ROM version would actually free up some RAM because xbios uses 1024 bytes + 256 bytes for the disk buffer. The way xxl did it, I suppose, was to replace xbios OpenFile/ReadFileData functions with the equivalent functions that read data from ROM instead of disk, based on a ROM directory instead of a disk one. I wouldn't be surprised if that saved 1KB overall.

 

I may release such a version because it's not a lot of work but it may not fit in a 128KB ROM. 

 

I recall that once you switch to 512KB/ 1MB ROMS, the bank switching scheme is non standard and not all are supported by every device. In theory though, because the data is streamed from ROM, it should be trivial to support a bunch of them... 

 

So my question: which 512KB/1MB banking schemes are worth supporting ?

 

[+Stephen]

1 minute ago, rensoup said:

I initially thought that xbios loaded slower than stock 1050 speed... but that's not the case. It would be nice if it supported Happy speed if the user has one... not sure if it does ?

 

Well, when Stunt Car Racer was released, the decision to use XBIOS was lamented because it only supported single speed SIO.  So, when I asked about this earlier, in an attempt to gaslight me and make me look like an idiot (I need no help BTW - I do this fine all by myself) - a video magically was posted showing XBIOS loading at single and US Doubler speeds.

 

Please - via show of hands.  How many of you were privy to the fact, before me asking about this (AND APOLOGIZING BTW - when I admitted to not being correct in a statement) - that XBOIS loaded at more than 1X SIO speeds?

[_The Doctor__]

I am over the moon happy that this is disk based and reportedly will run from Hard Drives as well as all other available media... Keep doing what your doing and pay no attention to any squabbles... they are a distraction and peeps will figure out what to do when it's all out and in our grubby little paws

[snicklin]

You will never appease everyone, just do what you think is right. 

[rensoup]

11 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Well, when Stunt Car Racer was released, the decision to use XBIOS was lamented because it only supported single speed SIO.  So, when I asked about this earlier, in an attempt to gaslight me and make me look like an idiot (I need no help BTW - I do this fine all by myself) - a video magically was posted showing XBIOS loading at single and US Doubler speeds.

I don't know under what conditions xbios supports higher speeds but I don't really know anything about all the devices mentioned in the last few pages. 

 

(I just remember Happy and its blazing loading speed from back in the day!)

 

But yeah it's a bit of a moot point since it's easy to stream from a cart (not sure why xxl didn't do it before!)

[flashjazzcat]

8 minutes ago, Stephen said:

You or I say we have machines where something works - and we are basically told "fuck off - you are the exception".  We are also dirty heathens that modified our machines.  OMG - how dare we not conform to the original 1979 designs, as they were etched in stone, never to be changed.

Yeah. I'm not gaslighting here. I just worked out (owing to the fact I recently exhausted a bag of 30 DIN13 connectors bought five years ago after I got sick of purchasing them piecemeal) that I have installed at least 30 VBXEs for other people, and thus something like fifty or more U1MBs. All U1MB machines assembled after 2015 had the FJC firmware flashed at divisor 0 with UFLASH. Because U1MB does nothing to affect POKEY, you could substitute U1MB for a Hias HSIO patched OS ROM or soft loaded patched OS and all of them would have run divisor 0 using the same FTDI/RespeQt/AspeQt setup.  The only failures I experienced were caused by a fake FTDI chip and more recently by the fact POKEYMAX doesn't like the SIO caps on some 600XLs.

[Mazzspeed]

I think people should have to type the game in from a basic listing in a magazine.

 

True purism right there. None of these polluting external 'peripherals'...

[+Stephen]

3 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yeah. I'm not gaslighting here. I just worked out (owing to the fact I recently exhausted a bag of 30 DIN13 connectors bought five years ago after I got sick of purchasing them piecemeal) that I have installed at least 30 VBXEs for other people, and thus something like fifty or more U1MBs. All U1MB machines assembled after 2015 had the FJC firmware flashed at divisor 0 with UFLASH. Because U1MB does nothing to affect POKEY, you could substitute U1MB for a Hias HSIO patched OS ROM or soft loaded patched OS and all of them would have run divisor 0 using the same FTDI/RespeQt/AspeQt setup.  The only failures I experienced were caused by a fake FTDI chip and more recently by the fact POKEYMAX doesn't like the SIO caps on some 600XLs.

Something is clearly amiss.  You must be part of the enemy, churning out those poxy machines with faulty mirrored addresses.  I tell you on these quiet nights I can honestly hear RainMan himself, banging his head against the wall because register $D3xx repeats.  Can you hear it - repeating over and over "yea, yeah, definitely a good coder, yeah, Dad let me drive the Buick.  16kB was enough, not gonna go to WalMart - yeah, yeah, yeah.  Let's throw in an LAX here, that will do."

[rensoup]

A few people have asked for a ROM based 64KB RAM version... (Like the C64 version basically)

 

That's a tad more tricky. Or perhaps a lot more... I don't really know. So if I ever attempted that, it would be after the final disk release.

 

Once you go that road though pretty much everything has to be left uncompressed in ROM, which also means it is possible to start cheating a little by preshifting/premirroring sprites for instance.

 

The main issue is that I sprinkled self modifying code all over the place (plus the original code has some too) so it's really about shuffling around all the code that does and doesn't require self modifying. The best tool to help me with that would be my virtual PoP which I neglected when the A8 port started working. So I'd have to get that working again first...

 

So I don't really have a final answer on that.

[_The Doctor__]

Please don't worry about all this other stuff, the core disk based game is definitely the way to go, all that cheating stuff can be later so people can have their apples for apples comparison stuff another day... Yes Rom banked stuff can cheat in a myriad of ways, greater speeds and all that you mentioned. But as you say, that's for later. Don't let us distract you...

 

[TheNameOfTheGame]

I agree, the core disk based version should take precedence.  Otherwise, who knows how the project would fragment.  It would suck if you lost focus and the project stalled.