Jacques Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Poison said: what is wrong with frame ? it looks weird Unfortunately that's the case. While I quite like the interlace "higher" resolution look of story book and the gold 1st letters, quite recently connected more modern (10 y/o or so ) LCD-TV 19", and it reduced flickering to zero, gave stable picture, which didn't look good. That said, there's no setting to change it, it just always does it. And as the time passes, with more and more displays we will face it, that the effect will be lost, while non-flickering version of storybook looks just bad. And watching the original/planned outlook only on emulator just doesn't cut it, so maybe reworking it to something else, without flickering, would be a sensible choice. I would really love to see TIX' Atari take on BBC Master's version storybook and title-screen, even if they'd have less colours in Atari version. But yeah, I remember rensoup's position on this good enough, so what to do... Edited July 22, 2021 by Jacques 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Yeah, those screens have a very Persian look and fit the game very well (imo) :). Too bad they won't get into the final version. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 2 hours ago, TheNameOfTheGame said: Yeah, those screens have a very Persian look and fit the game very well (imo) :). They surely do, except... the color-palette... A Rio-de-Janeiro Persian carnival... Bright / electrical-looking colors, notoriously weird. I am sure we could do clearly better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jacques said: That said, there's no setting to change it, it just always does it. ........ Not true, you can turn it on or off in the settings. Edited July 22, 2021 by Level42 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Level42 said: 3 hours ago, Jacques said: Not true, you can turn it on or off in the settings. What are you writing about? I thought I explicitly explained my 19" LCD-TV has NO OPTION in its settings to DISABLE picture-correction that removes flickering coming out of Atari. And after that correction, the storybook looks as poor as with "no flicker option" set in PoP settings. Edited July 22, 2021 by Jacques Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, Faicuai said: They surely do, except... the color-palette... A Rio-de-Janeiro Persian carnival... Bright / electrical-looking colors, notoriously weird. I am sure we could do clearly better. BBC's beautiful RGB teletext colors I'm so thankful for the A8's 256 colors... I do hope "we" can.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jacques said: What are you writing about? I thought I explicitly explained my 19" LCD-TV has NO OPTION in its settings to DISABLE picture-correction that removes flickering coming out of Atari. And after that correction, the storybook looks as poor as with "no flicker option" set in PoP settings. AH OK, thought you meant it wasn't possible to turn the setting off in the game.... It looks OK on my B&O MX8000 CRT..... when I turn it off I miss the effect.... But I don't stare at those screens for hours.... I just play the game 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 12 hours ago, Jacques said: 13 hours ago, Poison said: Unfortunately that's the case. While I quite like the interlace "higher" resolution look of story book and the gold 1st letters, quite recently connected more modern (10 y/o or so ) LCD-TV 19", and it reduced flickering to zero, gave stable picture, which didn't look good. That said, there's no setting to change it, it just always does it. And as the time passes, with more and more displays we will face it, that the effect will be lost, while non-flickering version of storybook looks just bad. And watching the original/planned outlook only on emulator just doesn't cut it, so maybe reworking it to something else, without flickering, would be a sensible choice. You bought a crap monitor so I should change the flicker effect ? If it looks like the picture above on your monitor, it means it can only output at 30hz, that's not exactly a smart move if you want to use it with an Atari... 2 1 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 11 hours ago, TheNameOfTheGame said: Yeah, those screens have a very Persian look and fit the game very well (imo) :). Too bad they won't get into the final version. Now we just need JP's rambling and the cycle will be complete ? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilheim Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Hi! I love how it’s looking the game now. @rensoup, is there anything you need I can help you with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 47 minutes ago, rensoup said: 12 hours ago, TheNameOfTheGame said: Yeah, those screens have a very Persian look and fit the game very well (imo) :). Too bad they won't get into the final version. Now we just need JP's rambling and the cycle will be complete ? Is there some way we can blame this on xBios? Then we really could come full circle (jerk). 2 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 hours ago, rensoup said: You bought a crap monitor so I should change the flicker effect ? Of course... The truth will set you free... ?? A multi-interface, multi-frequency video-path is not a luxury... but an actual need, not just in terms of the variety of our machines' legacy output, but in today's day-and-age of upgrades, digital interfaces and latest SW titles (like PoP, for instance)... plus also being the ONLY way to properly pave the way for upcoming PAL / NTSC convergence (which is no longer an "if", but a "when"...) Love the smooth-flickering effect! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Yeah.. Because all you need is Sophia 2 and any half decent LCD monitor. ? In fact, I got great results just using svideo out via separately shielded chroma/luma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Would not fit to the tank 800 a Sony Triniton CRT monster? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, rensoup said: You bought a crap monitor so I should change the flicker effect ? If it looks like the picture above on your monitor, it means it can only output at 30hz, that's not exactly a smart move if you want to use it with an Atari... That picture wasn't from my monitor, sigh, although was illustrating how the "no flicker" effect of something done with flicker in mind looks. As for the rest (monitor comment), it was as simple take on the things I could expect from you. I know geniuses can often be stubborn and eccentric, but come on! And no one can say you, or anyone of us is a genius, too You're doing great things, but your inability to take any argument except yours, very often radical opinion is a bit saddening. If you believe getting modern monitor/TV that doesn't do correction like that is a simple matter of "not buying crap one", and not the technology we have nowadays that wants to correct everything beyond user's control, that's not too smart, either. When older monitors finally die and we won't be able to repair them due to lack of parts, ROHS regulations, etc, etc, we'll end up seeing soft-interlace on PC emulator only. That's why it would be nice if intro with flickering switched-off or reduced by TV/monitor looked a bit better. Edited July 23, 2021 by Jacques 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, Jacques said: That picture wasn't from my monitor, sigh, although was illustrating how the "no flicker" effect of something done with flicker in mind looks. As for the rest (monitor comment), it was as simple take on the things I could expect from you. I know geniuses can often be stubborn and eccentric, but come on! And no one can say you, or anyone of us is a genius, too You're doing great things, but your inability to take any argument except yours, very often radical opinion is a bit saddening. If you believe getting modern monitor/TV that doesn't do correction like that is a matter of "not buying" crap one and not the technology we have nowadays that wants to correct everything, that's not too smart, either. As far as I'm aware, the effect is comprised of two interlaced graphics modes - I assume the intent is to produce a sharper image at the expense of flicker. From what I can see, the picture linked is a screenshot via Altirra or something similar? It looks like the PC took the screenshot just as one field was being rendered (two fields make one frame), emphasizing the issue. I agree, there is noticeable flicker, however it doesn't bother me personally as I rarely even pay attention to the screens using the effect. I just thought it would be worth attempting to explain what you're seeing, as opposed to those that just belittle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DjayBee Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jacques said: That picture wasn't from my monitor, sigh, although was illustrating how the "no flicker" effect of something done with flicker in mind looks. As for the rest (monitor comment), it was as simple take on the things I could expect from you. I know geniuses can often be stubborn and eccentric, but come on! And no one can say you, or anyone of us is a genius, too You're doing great things, but your inability to take any argument except yours, very often radical opinion is a bit saddening. People who know how to configure Altirra (frame blending) receive this picture: If you disable flicker it looks like that: (You cannot disable flickering with the non-playable test releases because pressing "ESC" is not caught by the program) Btw.: @rensoup is this double-p intentional? Edited July 23, 2021 by DjayBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, DjayBee said: People who know how to configure Altirra (frame blending) receive this picture: I know it, Altirra is great, but I'm using it mainly for quick testing new stuff, etc. with real Atari being default platform for me, which hopefully the emulator never get to be Edited July 23, 2021 by Jacques Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbyti Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jacques said: I know geniuses can often be stubborn and eccentric, but come on! And no one can say you, or anyone of us is a genius, too He definitely is not a genius! Geniuses don't release WIP version public because then you have to read a tons of shit instead of be productive. Not public tests are the best :] Edited July 23, 2021 by zbyti 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 11 hours ago, rensoup said: Now we just need JP's rambling and the cycle will be complete ? Pffft. Nah nah na nah na. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Jacques said: That picture wasn't from my monitor, sigh, although was illustrating how the "no flicker" effect of something done with flicker in mind looks. As for the rest (monitor comment), it was as simple take on the things I could expect from you. I know geniuses can often be stubborn and eccentric, but come on! And no one can say you, or anyone of us is a genius, too You're doing great things, but your inability to take any argument except yours, very often radical opinion is a bit saddening. If you believe getting modern monitor/TV that doesn't do correction like that is a simple matter of "not buying crap one", and not the technology we have nowadays that wants to correct everything beyond user's control, that's not too smart, either. When older monitors finally die and we won't be able to repair them due to lack of parts, ROHS regulations, etc, etc, we'll end up seeing soft-interlace on PC emulator only. That's why it would be nice if intro with flickering switched-off or reduced by TV/monitor looked a bit better. The very first problem I hit when I got back into Atari 8Bit was my display only showing monochrome images even though the Atari was putting out colour. And so began my journey of getting the right modern hardware to work with my old hardware. Turns out the signal put out by the Atari is not compatible with a lot of composite→vga converters and I had to go and buy a newer/better one even though the one I had works great with all my other retro hardware. I bitched about this quite a bit before I went and got a decent one and my problem went away. At no point was there any thought that my modern hardware was fine and I needed to 'fix' the Atari to work with it. If your monitor cannot display the flicker, you need to fix/change the monitor or the thing that sits between it and your Atari. I've since upgraded to UAV svideo and in one case a VBXE but I still use composite sometimes for NTSC artifacting. It's just a part of the retro hardware hobby that if you want to get it working 'right' you need really old hardware, really expensive modern hardware, or you live with the shortcomings that your modern hardware has. There is a whole bunch of stuff that makes use of flickering that you are missing out on if you can't display it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Jacques said: but your inability to take any argument except yours, very often radical opinion is a bit saddening. Checked the entire thread and... and found exactly the opposite. It sounds as if the flicker-effect (if not properly rendered) is simply a reminder of not having the right kind of gear for it... and it is in human nature not to like such a reminder, and therefore requesting to remove the effect, instead of getting the right gear (still affordable, and CRTs not strictly needed for it). Best thing to do if it does not show up right is to simply ignore it. It is just a transitory title screen, nothing else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Faicuai said: and it is in human nature not to like such a reminder, and therefore requesting to remove the effect, instead of getting the right gear It's getting too philosophical, methinks I think I pointed out I actually like the interlace "higher resolution" version of storybook, which is a bit like stereo - "where available". Still own another 17" LDC-TV monitor which does not reduce flickering, so I can watch it in nature, too. But I rather hoped - if possible - for more polishing of current non-flicker alternative (as per PoP settings), than removing flickering completely, because it IS the issue and will be even more. And yeah, it's just the intro, but it's the intro of the great PoP Edited July 23, 2021 by Jacques Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilheim Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Just playing around: 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I'm too busy enjoying it to nitpick it.... I remember when Sheddy got some flack for the flicker on Space Harrier....Seriously folks, you are playing bloody Space Harrier on the Atari with great music and samples, let alone amazing visuals, just ignore the blooming flicker or play it on Altirra with Frame Blending.. Do I see and issue with POP...Yes, I need MORE of it 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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