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rensoup

Unicorns season: Prince of Persia for the A8!

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Posted (edited)

So far the bathroom vs funeral style confrontation confirms initial worries - bathroom wins with healthy advantage😉

I think this contour letter "m" also doesn't cut it, it's like it's different just for the sake of it. Sorry 😇 I just wonder if there's a chance for retreat, or just full ahead to make the point. 

Edited by Jacques
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10 hours ago, rensoup said:

So I tend not to post stuff that's not fully done but I'd like to not leave everybody confused with that text thing so here's an updated version... still WIP of course

 

fntfl.png.d2247681142b8949c81517d2f2a6e000.png

 

 

fnt.obx 6.28 kB · 13 downloads

I just found another typo, a missing 's' off the end of the final word, dungeons.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, TheRaven81 said:

There's a typo. Missed the k in "know", in the last sentence. 

 

I'm gunna take a moment and apologize. I came to my senses, realizing things like this take time.  There's a thing programmers say. It goes something like "Make it work first. Make it look fancy later."  Baby steps, people. Baby steps. It looks like this now, sure. But it works. That's all that matters at the moment. And it already looks better than it did before. That big leading letter makes a big difference. Sure, José's screens do look a lot better than this. For now. But in the end this intro will probably end up way better than the original screens. The game is already looking like the best port made. I don't doubt the intro will have that same quality when it is finished.  And then when it does, we'll all drop our jaws and eat our words.

Thanks for the vote of confidence... I don't know about jaw dropping text screens though 😃 there's only so much that can be done in modeF...  just want to keep expectations realistic.

 

Damn... so many typos, glad I uploaded those screens!

Edited by rensoup
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20 hours ago, patjomki said:

MHO the font is also a little too big but that might be because I am used to all the other conversions. Like @TheRaven81 suggested @rensoup might have decided like he did because this way has advantages for the rest of the intro?

The font is a little bigger because it would flicker too much otherwise. I find it's a good compromise.

 

20 hours ago, patjomki said:

BTW, I tested the latest version on my crt/pal atari 800xl and flickering is noticeable so I'd still prefer the none flickering version.

It will be switchable in the option menu. Just curious what's your screen' size ?

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19 hours ago, Jacques said:

So far the bathroom vs funeral style confrontation confirms initial worries - bathroom wins with healthy advantage😉

How dare you criticize Karateka ?😃

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, rensoup said:

How dare you criticize Karateka ?😃

😉Actually I didn't criticize Karateka I just wrote what wins comparison when we discuss Prince of Persia.

If it's about PoP style and climate, it's honestly no brainer🙄


742498107_Screenshot_2020-05-31UnicornsseasonPrinceofPersiafortheA8.png.42b76622edfbdce36d9058c2900d9b2c.png

 

282819893_Screenshot_2020-05-31UnicornsseasonPrinceofPersiafortheA8(1).png.00f22aad4ce97f7673ebddf3bfe75da7.png

 

And I really hope you at least abandon contoured first letter, (fill it! ;-) ) as it's totally inconsistent with the rest of text, it's natural to be a bigger font of the same kind, not contour vs filled.
I also hope you won't overdo it stamping your authority (own style) on conversion, doing changes just for the sake of them 😉

While dungeons and TIX's player/enemies turned out great, here's a reason for serious concern.

Edited by Jacques
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rensoup said:

The font is a little bigger because it would flicker too much otherwise. I find it's a good compromise.

 

It will be switchable in the option menu. Just curious what's your screen' size ?

But why flicker? 

:?

 

:arrow:

1 hour ago, rensoup said:

How dare you criticize Karateka ?😃

:-o

Trying to be funny yeah? That only shows what's your sense of community and the others opinion...

 

:arrow:

56 minutes ago, Jacques said:

😉Actually I didn't criticize Karateka I just wrote what wins comparison when we discuss Prince of Persia.

If it's about PoP style and climate, it's honestly no brainer🙄


742498107_Screenshot_2020-05-31UnicornsseasonPrinceofPersiafortheA8.png.42b76622edfbdce36d9058c2900d9b2c.png

 

282819893_Screenshot_2020-05-31UnicornsseasonPrinceofPersiafortheA8(1).png.00f22aad4ce97f7673ebddf3bfe75da7.png

 

And I really hope you at least abandon contoured first letter, (fill it! ;-) ) as it's totally inconsistent with the rest of text, it's natural to be a bigger font of the same kind, not contour vs filled.
I also hope you won't overdo it stamping your authority (own style) on conversion, doing changes just for the sake of them 😉

While dungeons and TIX's player/enemies turned out great, here's a reason for serious concern.

Of course he knows what and understanded it totally well.

Karateka was first Jordan's game, I think, and he did those letters but then he really done a great job on the PoP intros screens gfxs and text.

I think no one is really happy now seeing lost the beautifully coloured text and is still to come the big letters logo with palace and stars screen more the girl/sand watch with Jaffar or Prince.

So we all have really have reason to be concerned.

No one, I think, other than them, can say that the top black white 'funeral type' :lolblue: (and with flicker is even worse) is any better looking or wahtever than that called by 'bathroom style'.

That's different ways of seeing and react to things but I couldn't be quiet seeing what at first promise and was going well suddenly turned into this.

In the end maybe people 'get out of the box' and post their feels...

 

And as a side note Saberman posted PoP on his YouTube channel:

And there's the @emkay comment. Not many times agreeing but please guys, is all said there:

Quote
This "work in progress" of PoP is really weird. There is now something available that points toward a lot misplaced games in the past. It works well as it is. The ambient that the colors make possible is really great, and the coder really did the needed trickery to get things graphically very impressive. Some of the Audio needs rework. While the "end of level" tune sounds POKEY-perfect, the tunes where the Prince is reaching something, still sound like a dying cat. Then still the flat FX in the video? And now we have the problem that the coder has some weird ideas with the prologue screens. Even more funny, while he gets the game that far, he seems not able to write one sentence in english without a typo ;) . Well, let'S wait and see, if the game will be released finally, and including the necessary fixes.

:thumbsup:

Edited by José Pereira

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, rensoup said:

The font is a little bigger because it would flicker too much otherwise. I find it's a good compromise.

 

It will be switchable in the option menu. Just curious what's your screen' size ?

I tested it on an old Grundig color TV P40-345 CTI which I bought in 1987. It has a screen size (diagonal) of approx. 40cm/15 inch.

 

Great that you decided to make it switchable because due to the testing that I've already done I have been testing it now with my 600XL on a 55inch plasma TV (both normal video and vbxe output) and with both interfaces the screen doesn't flicker at all but has a very strange font appearance.

fnt4.jpg

Edited by patjomki

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, patjomki said:

I tested it on an old Grundig color TV P40-345 CTI which I bought in 1987. It has a screen size (diagonal) of approx. 40cm/15 inch.

On smaller TVs it's quite possible that the non flickery font looks ok. On a big screen it looks like lego. On my cheap 32 LCD TV with Altirra (No frame blending) there's flickering but it's still noticeably better than no flicker.

 

1 hour ago, patjomki said:

Great that you decided to make it switchable because due to the testing that I've already done I have been testing it now with my 600XL on a 55inch plasma TV (both normal video and vbxe output) and with both interfaces the screen doesn't flicker at all but has a very strange font appearance.

hmm... it looks like your TV is only showing one of the two frame buffers, or maybe it's just the photo...

 

If you see permanent fringes on the side of the M, that's just a single frame so your TV may be doing some weird postprocessing.

 

You can see it in Altirra too if you hit pause

Edited by rensoup

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Posted (edited)

Lego 😂

 

Seems like the postprocessing of my plasma tv in fact decides that it should only show one of the two frame buffers (although I disabled any processing options in the tv's menu). The picture itself doesn't show any flickering but the weird font, so the photo shows the current output of the tv. There is no movement at all.

 

Apart from that I don't consider the vintage 15 inch tv big 😀 but the flickering is noticeable. To avoid any test issues I also tested the picture not only with my 800xl on this tv but also with my 600xl and the flickering is there as well.

 

But as you already told it will be switchable so I can use the non-flickering version on the small tv and the flickering version on the larger tv (to avoid any lego effect).

 

Edited by patjomki
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, patjomki said:

Lego 😂

 

Seems like the postprocessing of my plasma tv in fact decides that it should only show one of the two frame buffers (although I disabled any processing options in the tv's menu). The picture itself doesn't show any flickering but the weird font, so the photo shows the current output of the tv. There is no movement at all.

 

(...)

 

 

That's correct: your display's video engine either discards a group of the fields, or just does not have the speed / throughput / logic to switch-and-display the field-stream faithfully. If it is not the video-engine itself, then it has to be the actual (end) rendering display.

 

The screen should appear with relative smoothness (at least one of two samples provided) and there should be a noticeable improvement in horizontal resolution. (e.g. the falling or raising edges from letter like "A", etc.)

Edited by Faicuai
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Posted (edited)

Here's an idea to end the battle, how about a duel release, one that follows the traditional POP Intros etc... and one that follows the vision of what you've decided would be a nod to others things or what have you... Could be cool the have POP classic and it's intro's AND the POP PLUS! release with all manner of embellishment and changes making your mark big time. Nod's to history and all

Edited by _The Doctor__
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Posted (edited)

This discussion has reached an "interesting" level.

 

My 2 cents may be superfluous, but maybe they help to "pay the bill"... ;-)

  • I'm not a friend of flicker at all, mostly it let look the target machine weak
  • the current design is also IMHO very "dry" and flicker is no improvement, more an unnecessary compensation for... ....I don't know

BUT

  • @rensoup has all the freedom to do what ever he likes. I even wondered about the degree he is taking requests into account (color of the vest - WTH?).
  • While elaborate text screens would be a nice addition, I don't see them as that much important. How many percent of the gaming time you spend on them? Would you prefer to have the C64 in-game graphics when getting the text screens in the same style too? The core of the game is outstanding for the Atari!
  • The current version burned a lot of developer hours. The attention to detail is amazing. Putting additional workload on the developer requesting a "duel release" is very questionable. Isn't the lack of resources not always a problem?
  • The behavior of @José Pereira and his rants are unacceptable (one again). Get a life, become a man. We are lucky that you don't pissed off the developers.

I feel for the developers as there is still the sour taste regarding the critics for using xBios in "Stunt Car Racer". Shouldn't be development fun?

But it also shows again, that's much better to release a finished product and exclude the audience from the WIP. 🙂

 

Just to put another idea into the ring, as the field for the current proposals seems to be burned, the text screens could be presented very Atari like, going the "Nibelungen"-Way:

https://youtu.be/ZzLchN5buCQ?t=118

 

Edited by Irgendwer
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Ancient Scroll angle nice. I've seen a couple different renditions on it and they've come off pretty well.

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I agree with Irgendwer. The level of nitpicking from people not directly contributing is surprising to me on the board, and I've seen it in many efforts, including my own a while back. I have to say, it did contribute to my eventual dropping of the project, although it wasn't the primary reason. Just focus on what you think is best, rensoup. They have the option to not play the game if they don't like it, or to write their own. I advise against flicker as well, though since you did ask for opinions.

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14 hours ago, danwinslow said:

I agree with Irgendwer. The level of nitpicking from people not directly contributing is surprising to me on the board, and I've seen it in many efforts, including my own a while back. I have to say, it did contribute to my eventual dropping of the project, although it wasn't the primary reason. Just focus on what you think is best, rensoup. They have the option to not play the game if they don't like it, or to write their own. I advise against flicker as well, though since you did ask for opinions.

1. Contribution was proposed by Jose, as Rensoup and Tix are not using G2F or similiar modern tools, allowing to create colourful pictures. The rest of us offers and does testing & feedback (with joy!).

2. As it's open forum and (many) authors decide to present their progress, I guess they need to be prepared for getting both PROs and CONs, not only PATTING on their backs.

Of course it may be pain in the ass sometimes, but on most occasion the voice of group of people is more representative (averaged) than feel/taste of single person, even if he does the coding ;-)

3. If you dropped your project for other primary reason, I'm not sure it helps the atmosphere to mention supposed "contribution".

4. It's just that at some stage the openness got closed, even with flicker/non-flicker Rensoup already had his idea, it seems, that 100% non-flicker is not an option, which I personally agree with (despite not liking black screens / missing story book): In my opinion fonts look much better with that light flickering than in stable, but lower resolution).

 

Cheers 🙂

 

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21 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Here's an idea to end the battle, how about a duel release, one that follows the traditional POP Intros etc... and one that follows the vision of what you've decided would be a nod to others things or what have you... Could be cool the have POP classic and it's intro's AND the POP PLUS! release with all manner of embellishment and changes making your mark big time. Nod's to history and all

That would be a lot of work for something I don't care about...

 

Plus those original screens take a lot of space and need to be loaded one at a time... Loading means no sound between the screens.

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20 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

@rensoup has all the freedom to do what ever he likes. I even wondered about the degree he is taking requests into account (color of the vest - WTH?).

That wasn't a request btw, I wanted the vest color but TIX wanted to keep the original blue... given the time he spent on the project I figured it was a good compromise

 

20 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

Just to put another idea into the ring, as the field for the current proposals seems to be burned, the text screens could be presented very Atari like, going the "Nibelungen"-Way:

https://youtu.be/ZzLchN5buCQ?t=118

Not a fan... but always good to see alternatives.

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4 hours ago, Jacques said:

2. As it's open forum and (many) authors decide to present their progress, I guess they need to be prepared for getting both PROs and CONs, not only PATTING on their backs.

Of course it may be pain in the ass sometimes, but on most occasion the voice of group of people is more representative (averaged) than feel/taste of single person, even if he does the coding ;-)

The "group" is very few people... I'm guessing most people don't care enough to post. The number of download for that flicker test is less than 20.

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Regarding flickering:

 

 

 

 

like I've already said: IT WILL BE OPTIONAL

 

 

 

It is nonsense to complain about flickering if you're using Altirra because there is none if you use frame blending (and it looks a lot better). I'm using Altirra without it because I prefer the fuzzier look and it's still better than no flickering... You may be more sensitive to it but don't tell me that it doesn't work.

 

If you have real hardware...again YMMV.

 

It is the same technique that's used for the Altirra OS intro screen on the tiny font:

 

altos.png.e89cc7eeb0f735ccbb184a84f7615f4a.png

 

I've also mentioned Donkey Kong VCS which is by far the best looking game for the A2600. Everybody agreed that it was a fantastical technical achievement and it was only made possible by its extensive use of flickering. So again don't tell me that doesn't work when there are proofs that it does.

 

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And here's another test, probably the last one, as I think I've got all the pieces to work on the final look.

 

prolc.png.0ecdf3fd57840a623533441e3ac7e9dd.png

 

 

fntc.obx

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, rensoup said:

And here's another test, probably the last one, as I think I've got all the pieces to work on the final look.

 

prolc.png.0ecdf3fd57840a623533441e3ac7e9dd.png

 

 

fntc.obx 6.9 kB · 8 downloads

Looking good on NTSC, LCD-monitor + video-processor. 👍👍

 

Good edge-definition, and image seems overall stable. Image appears rendered with minimal / non-intrusive flicker.

 

Just a bit more middle-eastern / "persian" decoration (like a couple of sexy dancers around the edges) and that should make it stand out!

 

;-)

Edited by Faicuai
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