Chess

[+Andrew Davie]

So, back from a bit of a break.  I've been a bit down.

 

Right, so first off the bat there's been a bit of a change in the 3E+ bankswitch scheme in the latest Stella. A bit of ambiguity has been resolved, and to make things simple and clean for future hardware - a change made to how banks are "positioned" at startup. As a consequence, earlier 3E+ versions of Chess will not run on future versions of Stella.  This is not a bug. Those earlier versions were (incorrectly) written to take advantage of the fact that the startup bank was present in two separate locations.

 

So, that's the technicals. I'm posting a binary which will run on the new Stella, but otherwise (mostly) the same as previous releases. I did whack back in a full RAM clear, though, and haven't seen that "green screen of death" lockup in my short tests. Let me know if you see it. Also just a bit of a colour change just because I can. I don't plan to keep this one, but at least it will make things obvious which version you have.

I keep thinking how much more beautiful this could be if I used the ARM. It's kind of depressing.

 

This is a 3PQ6 version. I have really already forgotten a lot about what wasn't working, and I don't have much motivation right now. But I seem to recall that the computer was reluctant to castle, and that's about it. Have at it.

EDIT: Updated binary to a version that should run on any Stella (including current official 6.2) which supports 3E+ scheme.

 

 

 

 

chess20200611_3PQ6b.bin

Edited June 11, 2020 by Andrew Davie

[+stephena]

The next version of Stella (6.2.1) will be released by the end of next week, so everyone will be able to use the newest binaries going forward.

[+Andrew Davie]

18 minutes ago, stephena said:

The next version of Stella (6.2.1) will be released by the end of next week, so everyone will be able to use the newest binaries going forward.

Have updated the binary so people with 6.2 should be able to play it.

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

I keep thinking how much more beautiful this could be if I used the ARM. It's kind of depressing.

 

No reason you can't backtrack and start anew. If you don't it will always bother you. Consider the last months a trial-run.

[+Andrew Davie]

1 minute ago, Keatah said:

 

No reason you can't backtrack and start anew. If you don't it will always bother you. Consider the last months a trial-run.

It's a philosophical thing for me.

 

[+Andrew Davie]

I've just written up a bit of a technical doc on how I use 3E+ bank-switching with support macros as used in Chess.

For anyone who is interested in this stuff...

 

 

[+Andrew Davie]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:13 PM, Karl G said:

The idea of a pure 6502 Atari game using that much RAM boggles my mind. I'm wondering if this game uses more than any other homebrew so far? 

It doesn't "use" that much RAM. The current memory layout "requires" that much RAM. More specifically, it requires the # RAM banks calculated, but the actual usage of that RAM is, I dunno, let's say about 20%.  It's to do with the efficiency of making certain assumptions and optimising for speed. I could most certainly reduce RAM "requirements" but I don't need to, and it would only slow things down.

[+Karl G]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

It doesn't "use" that much RAM. The current memory layout "requires" that much RAM. More specifically, it requires the # RAM banks calculated, but the actual usage of that RAM is, I dunno, let's say about 20%.  It's to do with the efficiency of making certain assumptions and optimising for speed. I could most certainly reduce RAM "requirements" but I don't need to, and it would only slow things down.

Okay, I follow. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you reduce the RAM usage, but I just found it interesting from a technical perspective  it's interesting that 3E and 3E+ allow you to make use of much more RAM than I am used to seeing with a pure 6502 Atari game.

[+Andrew Davie]

3 hours ago, Karl G said:

Okay, I follow. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you reduce the RAM usage, but I just found it interesting from a technical perspective  it's interesting that 3E and 3E+ allow you to make use of much more RAM than I am used to seeing with the pure 6502 Atari game.

It's one "extension" of the '2600 universe. ARM is another. ARM gives you like a gazillion bytes of RAM as well. I bet the RAM usage of some of the ARM games is quite significant. It's a real shame we don't get to see the internals of those games.

 

Edit: poorly chosen comment so let's just move on.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Andrew Davie

[+Karl G]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

It's one "extension" of the '2600 universe. ARM is another. ARM gives you like a gazillion bytes of RAM as well. I bet the RAM usage of some of the ARM games is quite significant. It's a real shame we don't get to see the internals of those games.

 

Did my post somehow come across as a criticism? I am hoping not. I am just finding it interesting because it's a lot different than what I am used to seeing. I don't doubt that many or probably most ARM games use more RAM since the ARM processor does not have the same addressing limitation. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

It's a real shame we don't get to see the internals of those games.

Why don't you just ask? Usually people are not shy of talking about details.

[+Karl G]

I believe SpiceWare has made the source for most (all?) of his ARM-enhanced games available. 

[+splendidnut]

To the best of my knowledge most/all ARM based games run on the Standard Harmony so:

On 6/1/2020 at 11:29 PM, batari said:

If you are using less than 8k, then it could be made to work in the standard Harmony as well. More than 8k and it will be Encore-only.

 

Seems the most they could potentially use is 8k?

 

----

Addendum:

 

The majority of RAM is probably used as graphics buffers for fast-fetch use in the display kernel... Example: Chaotic Grill uses 2kb chunk (not all is used... because data is page aligned) for this purpose.  This is based on my knowledge (which may be lacking) from working with DPC+ bankswitching which only has access to 4kb RAM.

[+Andrew Davie]

2 hours ago, splendidnut said:

To the best of my knowledge most/all ARM based games run on the Standard Harmony so:

 

Seems the most they could potentially use is 8k?

 

----

Addendum:

 

The majority of RAM is probably used as graphics buffers for fast-fetch use in the display kernel... Example: Chaotic Grill uses 2kb chunk (not all is used... because data is page aligned) for this purpose.  This is based on my knowledge (which may be lacking) from working with DPC+ bankswitching which only has access to 4kb RAM.

These are all good points which shows I really didn't think too hard about my comments earlier.

I'm really not thinking too straight, am I.

 

[+Andrew Davie]

3 hours ago, Karl G said:

Did my post somehow come across as a criticism? I am hoping not. I am just finding it interesting because it's a lot different than what I am used to seeing. I don't doubt that many or probably most ARM games use more RAM since the ARM processor does not have the same addressing limitation. 

It's OK. People read things into comments that both weren't intended, and weren't there in the first place.

I'm quite likely to be doing that at this point in time.

[+Pat Brady]

7 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

I keep thinking how much more beautiful this could be if I used the ARM. It's kind of depressing.

 

I prefer your graphics the way they are.

 

Okay, maybe not this last version with the prominent green stripes, but you already said you don’t plan to keep that.

 

ARM-and-TIA is an interesting concoction, and I own and enjoy a couple of those games, but I hope it doesn’t crowd out development of games that don’t use 21st-century hardware. For a new 2600 chess game, I feel like you are on exactly the right track.

[AW127]

12 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

I keep thinking how much more beautiful this could be if I used the ARM. It's kind of depressing.

 

There maybe could also be made two versions of the game in the end, one version which uses the ARM and one which doesn't? Could also, because we talk about the boardgame Chess here, be interesting in that way, to look at the differences in the playstrength of these versions in the end. Two versions would be superb to have.

[+Andrew Davie]

36 minutes ago, AW127 said:

 

There maybe could also be made two versions of the game in the end, one version which uses the ARM and one which doesn't? Could also, because we talk about the boardgame Chess here, be interesting in that way, to look at the differences in the playstrength of these versions in the end. Two versions would be superb to have.

 

It's a neat idea and one I might consider. But the amount of work that goes into these things vs. the return... make it only a labour of love. I'd have to be in the right frame of mind to do that.

[+D Train]

14 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

I've been a bit down.

about atari stuff?  or is it covid related?  how is the coronavirus treating you guys out there in oz?

 

I can attest that the shelter in place/work from home/distance learning thing has made life in NYC very weird which has definitely affected me much more than I thought it would...

[+Andrew Davie]

24 minutes ago, D Train said:

about atari stuff? 

 

This resonates...

 

Quote

The dilemma of the creative process — and this is especially true for artists — is that we impose pressure on ourselves to make impressive, or at least good, creations; they must be meaningful and make sense right off the bat, and if they are none of those things, then self-doubt, fear and discouragement seep in like poison to passion.

 

This unrealistic pursuit in thinking every painting must be a Sistine Chapel or every novel should be literary prize-worthy is toxic to the creative process, and that’s what it is — a process. Creativity is a process and a practice. As with chores, you must press on with the creative practice even if you aren’t in the mood, and especially when you’re not in the mood. In the long run, fighting and forging through the doldrums of uninspired and passionless episodes of “forced creation” inevitably proves the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

But there’s a distinct difference between falling into a creative lull due to a natural periodic lack of inspiration versus experiencing the absence of inspiration at the hands of depression. It’s common knowledge that one of the symptoms of depression is the depressed person loses interest in activities that were once enjoyed. But the thing is, you lose interest in everything, which makes the effort a depressed person must put into convincing his or her mind to be creative, in spite of the depression, exponentially more challenging.

 

[+D Train]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

This resonates...

ok, I hear you.

 

it's hard when things that are exciting become a drain...

 

at the risk of being incredibly banal and anodyne, hang in there!

[+batari]

6 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

It's a philosophical thing for me.

I understand the challenge here. An effective chess game that uses just the 6507 is an impressive feat. I still think there is value in creating games that could have been possible in 1982.

 

It's cool as it is and I think people understand the challenges faced here to try to do complicated processing with the 2600's CPU.

[+Kaboomer]

9 hours ago, D Train said:

about atari stuff?  or is it covid related?  how is the coronavirus treating you guys out there in oz?

 

I can attest that the shelter in place/work from home/distance learning thing has made life in NYC very weird which has definitely affected me much more than I thought it would...

Hang in there guys! Please do know that your creative efforts are enjoyed by many. Being locked down in Chicago now with everything going on in the world capped off with a recent broken foot has given me time to re-discover all your wonderful creations and love for Atari and this great AA community. 

[+Andrew Davie]

1 minute ago, Kaboomer said:

Hang in there guys! Please do know that your creative efforts are enjoyed by many. Being locked down in Chicago now with everything going on in the world capped off with a recent broken foot has given me time to re-discover all your wonderful creations and love for Atari and this great AA community. 

TY. I lived in Chicago for a short while in 1989 at Rogers Park. I still remember the address!

1344 W. Estes, apt 3S... which was mostly memorable for the vast numbers of cockroaches

 

[Mr SQL]

21 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

It's a philosophical thing for me.

 

 

4 hours ago, batari said:

I understand the challenge here. An effective chess game that uses just the 6507 is an impressive feat. I still think there is value in creating games that could have been possible in 1982.

 

It's cool as it is and I think people understand the challenges faced here to try to do complicated processing with the 2600's CPU.

X3 and I think an important part of the philosophy is that coding to the old hardware is a big part of the nostalgia and hence the fun, particularly for programmers who were part of the scene writing cool 8-bit video games in the 80's.

 

Gameloop internals coded to a 32-bit chip can be a less interesting option for old school programmers for this reason.

 

You created Batari BASIC for classic hardware, would you find it comparitively interesting to create a full featured 32-bit ARM BASIC with an interactive debugger for the Atari like shown for the Vectrex here than your classic hardware implementation?