PacManPlus Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Hey Guys... I'm wondering if enough people have some version of the Flashback joysticks to start to actually start checking for those special button presses (I believe one of them is "left+right", something you would never hit in real life games... except maybe for Track & Field), one of them is "up+down", etc. There should be a list somewhere of this button mapping... I think I may start doing that, as I can't see it hurting anything. If someone doesn't have the joystick, there's always the 'Start & Select' on the console... Bob Also, (unrelated topic) - I bought one of those hyperkin joysticks (the one with the two buttons on it), and I'm going to rewire it to be the left & right buttons for the 7800... just because of Baby Pac-Man... Much easier to use Edited December 9, 2019 by PacManPlus Mispelled my own name :dunce: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 There's no harm in it, as long as there's a workaround for those without one. It might even be a pretty neat bonus. I can imagine someone hacking a Super Nintendo or Genesis controller to work with games like that. I love 7800 innovations 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 If it was anyone else I'd say just make a good game, and don't worry about extra buttons. Since it's Bob, I just want to see what he has in mind that NEEDS extra buttons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 In joystick mode 7800basic uses impossible directions to remotely replicate the console switches... L+D+U = If pausing code is disabled (as it should be on a title screen) then this combo acts as the console reset button L+D+U = if pausing code is enabled, this combo acts as the console pause button. R+D+U = this combo acts like the console select button. ...perhaps some day someone will wire up the start and select on their NES controller conversions, with just a few extra diodes. [edit - my original post about this was back in 2014. time flies] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 13 hours ago, RevEng said: In joystick mode 7800basic uses impossible directions to remotely replicate the console switches... L+D+U = If pausing code is disabled (as it should be on a title screen) then this combo acts as the console reset button L+D+U = if pausing code is enabled, this combo acts as the console pause button. R+D+U = this combo acts like the console select button. ...perhaps some day someone will wire up the start and select on their NES controller conversions, with just a few extra diodes. [edit - my original post about this was back in 2014. time flies] That's really interesting. So conceivably, there could be a controller or adapter that saved those sequences as macros and could execute them with a single button press. Since the A8 guys are getting all Crazy with the Cheese Whiz after rediscovering the joys of using Rob Zydbel's scheme from Atari Inc's internal 3-Base Missile Command to use the Paddle Lines for Fire Buttons #2 and #3 and then adding support to their favorite ROMs, is there any such "impossible" direction schemes that could be used to support a 3rd - or more - Fire Button on the 7800? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, RevEng said: In joystick mode 7800basic uses impossible directions to remotely replicate the console switches... L+D+U = If pausing code is disabled (as it should be on a title screen) then this combo acts as the console reset button L+D+U = if pausing code is enabled, this combo acts as the console pause button. R+D+U = this combo acts like the console select button. ...perhaps some day someone will wire up the start and select on their NES controller conversions, with just a few extra diodes. [edit - my original post about this was back in 2014. time flies] Ouch... That's very cool, had no idea you did that. I just figured out the flashback buttons: Menu = U + D Select = L + R Start = U + D + L Rewind= L + R + U I had planned on using 'Rewind' as pause (so we had three separate buttons) I'm not sure which way to go with this now. @Lynxpro - I don't think so, as you would be actively messing with the directions *while the game is in play*... It's bad enough that I was able to isolate the 'U' direction by lightly pressing the Start button on the joystick... that may cause issues while playing... Edited December 10, 2019 by PacManPlus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Yeah, sorry Lynxpro, but I agree with Bob that these soft buttons are probably better used for non-action bits. Start, pause, bring up a menu or inventory screen that pauses the action, etc. It's too easy to have unintended presses if you're moving the stick and pressing buttons at the same time. IIRC there's a similar collision problem with the Inty keypad and directions. Even though it's against my "standard", I'd say go with the FB controller scheme, Bob. At least that way you have real controllers that people can use it with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) Ok, so last night I found an issue. For some reason, when 'auto-detecting' a joystick, the 7800 thinks the flashback joystick with the extra buttons is a pro-line joystick. This prevents the use of the regular fire-button. So... I guess, there goes that idea. Edited December 11, 2019 by PacManPlus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Oh well. Not a fan of most of the FB sticks, especially the mushy ones with long throws like the FB9. blech 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) Ok, I am VERY confused. I opened up the flashback joystick (the one with the extra buttons) and I see no extra hardware, nor any other pins other than U,D,L,R,F,G. So I have NO idea why the 7800 thinks it's a ProLine. Wait, it gets worse... I plugged in the flashback player 2 joystick (the one *without* the extra buttons), and the 7800 also thinks THAT one is a ProLine... Then I was getting nervous, thinking I broke something with the above modifications I made to the game.... so I tried the Hyperkin joystick, and two other standard CX40s. They worked fine. So, for some reason, the flashback joysticks make the 7800 think a ProLine is connected when they aren't. Without any other pins/hardware than a standard joystick. I am SO confused... EDIT - So I took the board out of the player 1 flashback joystick, and there are some diodes and a resistor so I can kind of understand why the 7800 would think that one is a ProLine... Probably some variance in the signal from a CX40. But I took the board out of the player two joystick, and... nothing. Just a board with connections. So that one has me very confused.... Edited December 12, 2019 by PacManPlus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Maybe the paddle line pins are grounded somewhere? I.e. in the connector or controller. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldLeader Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 On 12/11/2019 at 6:24 AM, save2600 said: Oh well. Not a fan of most of the FB sticks, especially the mushy ones with long throws like the FB9. blech Agreed! I'm a fan of the early FB sticks, but not the later, long throw versions with the menu buttons...I think of them as extreme workouts for the hands...Can't play them long. Maybe you could just think in terms of a 7800 joystick in port 1 and a Star Raiders keypad in port 2 for additional buttons? That would be a control scheme most of us already have access to...Though I don't if that works in the real world like I'm picturing it in my mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 Well, I've got the code written and tested so I'll put it in the games that only use CX-40s. This way there's no issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Where does one buy flashback sticks that work for a 7800? Are these not horrendous atgames junk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted December 30, 2019 Author Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) Ok, not being one to let things go, I looked at the controller connection on the FB9 sticks (which should answer your question, @Jinks ). It looks like all 9 pins are there on BOTH controllers (which doesn't mean they connect to anything, but still). I think I'll take a multi-meter to these pins to see if the paddle input lines are indeed grounded (thanks for the idea, @RevEng ). I guess even if that's true, the joysticks would then have to be modified for them to work correctly with the 7800. So this still might be a bust... Again, except for single button games. Edited December 30, 2019 by PacManPlus left out a word. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boggis the cat Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 You can get decent Chinese CX-40 clones from AliExpress. I bought a few, as the originals are hard to come by in decent working order. My intent is to modify one by adding the Flashback buttons, but I haven’t got around to designing the support for the circuit board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 How many more buttons do you require? The 8bit computer can now have 3 buttons instead of one, but doubt it'll work on the 7800 https://atariage.com/forums/topic/278884-2-button-joystick/?do=findComment&comment=4206381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boggis the cat Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 You can get up to seven ‘buttons’ using impossible joystick returns. The combinations used by the Flashback are: MENU = UP + DOWN SELECT = LEFT + RIGHT REWIND = LEFT + RIGHT + UP START = UP + DOWN + LEFT Plus you have: LEFT + RIGHT + DOWN (SELECT) UP + DOWN + RIGHT (MENU) UP + RIGHT + DOWN + LEFT (not tested) If you use the first two of the above three combinations on the Flashback then you get SELECT and MENU. I didn’t try the last, so don’t know how that would be interpreted. I don’t believe that you can use the FIRE button in combination (to add another eleven possible selections) without turning off normal joystick operation in the programming. Possibly you could use one of the above ‘buttons’ to set an input mode that activates / deactivates these up to eleven optional ‘buttons’. It would be important for programmers to agree on any such usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 From a developer perspective, a kludged solution isn't solid bedrock to build a game around. That's why Bob was looking at the FB sticks. Here's one solution for 4 button controllers on the 2600, 7800, and probably A8. It involves a few cent resistor and an extremely minor tweak to the internals of a genesis controller. It's easily extended to give 7 button input if you count on the player having a genesis six button controller. But that's still too tough for most people to pull off, so you can't count on very many people having such a beast to use with your game. (also why I created the 2600 two-button hacks, instead of the 2600 four-button hacks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 We've talked here about extra buttons before. I think we all bottomed out on using the paddle lines as extra buttons for a three button controller as a standard that the homebrew developers can use. I think that perhaps we should have a proper vote on it and decide as a community to create a new standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 People buy SGMs for Colecos to play certain games they could not otherwise...people are also (theoretically) doing that with the XM. If a new controller standard was agreed upon, could there be a cheap controller that could be designed and sold on Atari Age? Reworked Genny pad with a new PCB or whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SmittyB Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Using the existing keypads as a basis it would be possible to make a custom 8 button controller. The limitation is that the keypad circuitry only allows for detecting 3 keys at a time so that would allow for up/down, left/right, plus one of 8 buttons. Edit: Actually that'd be 4 buttons because the other 4 would conflict with the directions. Possibly best saved for use as pause buttons and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.