Graphic mode advice for new game

[explorer]

4 hours ago, TIX said:

Take it easy man.. I don't "propose" anything, and I don't give a shit about the technicalities !!

I just draw what I feel like it 

 

I appreciate your work, Tix

 

I have not seen all the graphics, but the standard size is 24x32 pixels (ZX version).

[explorer]

5 hours ago, emkay said:

Using hires at 32 bytes width allows the needed details, saves a lot CPU cycles and so on.

Another option that I had thought about and which has also been discussed before: the 256 pixels of the ZX are close (64 pixels) to the 192 pixels that would have a wide format. I would need to program a floating window over the 256 real pixels with the horizontal scroll.

 

But, vertically, the pixels would be twice as wide as they were tall, right?

[emkay]

2 minutes ago, explorer said:

I appreciate your work, Tix

 

I have not seen all the graphics, but the standard size is 24x32 pixels (ZX version).

You should take care of not to get misled.

Colors and shaping of a "real" software sprite have their limits.  Regardless of what a software designer is thinking. 

 

 

[emkay]

3 minutes ago, explorer said:

Another option that I had thought about and which has also been discussed before: the 256 pixels of the ZX are close (64 pixels) to the 192 pixels that would have a wide format. I would need to program a floating window over the 256 real pixels with the horizontal scroll.

 

But, vertically, the pixels would be twice as wide as they were tall, right?

 

Right. 

The approach of a full screen usage has always been my favorite, but then the 2 scanline modes had to be used, or some clever usage of character modes to compensate the higher CPU usage.

 

Your aimed goal of converting the game doesn't really allow this solution. 

 

 

 

[emkay]

About tricky character mode usage:

 

 

While other don't understand the potential part there, everything is obvious.

 

The image resembles a real possible action game. The clues were that PMg is acting as a parallax layer in the background, and the "fighters" need just one character set. CPU usage is rather low then, to have the whole thing "shaking" .

The smaller image is the full image of a C64 game at the same display size.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by emkay

[José Pereira]

On 12/30/2019 at 2:57 PM, José Pereira said:

Don't worry has first you have it all black&white because then and after there maybe a solution using A8 PMGs to colour it. I don't know of Mariuszw lately but I, him and maybe Tezz can give you the colourings help you need.

Just convert, port whatever you wanna do in black&white hi-res that for sure on A8 will need to be better a Bitmap mode GR.8 320x then for sure colours will come...

I'm sure ?.

?

So I'm used from Mariuszw,... conversions/ports that normally guys pixels (white) are bit_1 (ours PF1) and black/darker/sky colours are bit_0 (ours PF2) so just seeing that tiles of map1 in about 1hour I turned them all to black&white (PF2&PF1):

That's because I just replaced ZX's .png using same name Tiled just automatically produced it for A8:

mapa_nivel01d.tmx

The exactly objects, information, enemys,... on the .tmx(for also later turn into black&white) are there also.

If you can use Tiled and port Z80 code directly (@Mariuszw, @Tezz, @shanti77 if have time can be a great help if you aren't used to) and we have already level1.

In a couple of days I can do all the levels so after what it'll take more time is to PMGs colour each screen (like, for example, we did at Highway Encounter, Skool Daze,...) if there's enough Memory for it...

?

 

P.s.- No scrolling and screen per screen like ZX and Bitmap mode GR.8 so no worries for the number of chars.

?

Edited January 2, 2020 by José Pereira

[explorer]

Thank you for your effort, José, but it is not necessary. This thread is more to know which graphic mode was better for this type of games.

 

The whole process of transforming the graphics is already done through scripts. All the information is extracted from the .tmx and .png and transformed into monochrome graphics with color attributes for the PM.

 

And reduction of tiles to characters, since there are some super tiles that are made up of repeated (or inverted or rotated) characters. The idea is to reduce the number of characters on the screen to a minimum. Or at least, every two screen lines (the size of a super tile).

 

Anyway, I take the image in PNG as a guide in case the script is not completely perfect and I will notify you.

 

I have to teach some classes next week, so I'll be busy. On the way back I will open a new thread where I will tell the progress and the difficulties that I will find (WIP).

 

Thanks, @José Pereira

[Turbo Laser Lynx]

@explorer It's a matter of taste too, I originally had a c64 so I love those double wide pixels from before, but perhaps you want to do something different from the Spectrum and dip your toes in "chunky pixel bliss"

I recently got myself an Atari 130xe, so looking forward to see a port of this for the Atari 8-bits. As I read more home computer history, it is quite apparent Commodore borrowed a few ideas from the Atari 8-bit computers.

the thread emkay linked to has a lot of interesting discussion and opinions about the A8 graphic modes:

 

Btw. I love the zx spectrum and the speccy scene too, so many colorful and great games coming out for it all the time! (I have a +2)

Edited January 2, 2020 by Turbo Laser Lynx

[R0ger]

12 hours ago, TIX said:

Looking pretty good in 8 pixels width, 2 +1 colors (I used the palette from Wonderboy  ),

now for the wider frames.. we must be creative !

 

Wow, that's lot better then I expected .. none of the frames is really pretty, but it looks great while moving.

[emkay]

6 minutes ago, R0ger said:

Wow, that's lot better then I expected .. none of the frames is really pretty, but it looks great while moving.

 

Wow , an unexpected learning experience ?

Movement , animation,  "something is going on... whatever" is much more worth than the shown details.

[popmilo]

5 hours ago, explorer said:

Another option that I had thought about and which has also been discussed before: the 256 pixels of the ZX are close (64 pixels) to the 192 pixels that would have a wide format. I would need to program a floating window over the 256 real pixels with the horizontal scroll.

But, vertically, the pixels would be twice as wide as they were tall, right?

I like that idea.
And pixels can be 2x1 ratio or 2x2.
Good example of backgrounds done in this 2x2 mode is Bruce lee (ignore sprites, they are Players and missiles in 1 scanline resolution).

 

You wouldn't have to go for 48 wide mode imho although it would be cool to see. Problem is that on most CRT screens you only see maybe couple characters on the sides of normal 40 column screen.
And when you switch on 48 char wide mode, DMA memory stealing cycles go higher than you want to.

 

Vertically you can safely go to something like 27-28 chars. That gives you window of let's say 160x112.

Best reason to go for mode like this is - it would really look like an atari game

 

If you go with 256x192 hires black and white with some colors, people will see from 100Km that "it is another spectrum conversion"
Not that it is a bad thing, only that it's been done before.

 

It wouldn't be easy to make that window scroll around or to choose between bitmap mode or char based mode (you get 5th color in char mode). But booooooy, would it be fun !

 

 

[emkay]

8 minutes ago, popmilo said:

 

 

You wouldn't have to go for 48 wide mode imho although it would be cool to see. Problem is that on most CRT screens you only see maybe couple characters on the sides of normal 40 column screen.
And when you switch on 48 char wide mode, DMA memory stealing cycles go higher than you want to.

 

Actually, if the coder has enough experience, he could do a full screen game , using just 32 Bytes width. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, popmilo said:

Vertically you can safely go to something like 27-28 chars. That gives you window of let's say 160x112.

Best reason to go for mode like this is - it would really look like an atari game

 

It WOULD be the best reason, if the animated moving objects were fluidly enough.

 

 

8 minutes ago, popmilo said:

If you go with 256x192 hires black and white with some colors, people will see from 100Km that "it is another spectrum conversion"
Not that it is a bad thing, only that it's been done before.

 

The game yells for the Speccy look.

 

8 minutes ago, popmilo said:

 

It wouldn't be easy to make that window scroll around or to choose between bitmap mode or char based mode (you get 5th color in char mode). But booooooy, would it be fun !

 

 

 

One's fun is the other's still never finished game

 

 

 

[explorer]

1 hour ago, popmilo said:

If you go with 256x192 hires black and white with some colors, people will see from 100Km that "it is another spectrum conversion"

It is precisely what I want to avoid. It makes no sense to do exactly the same. What I want is to take advantage of the hardware of the A8, still being the same game, but having "something different" and typical of the A8. And if I can't have the colors of the MSX2, at least try to scroll it, or a continuous map. Or improve animated tiles.

 

52 minutes ago, emkay said:

Actually, if the coder has enough experience, he could do a full screen game , using just 32 Bytes width. 

What?

 

 

[TIX]

?

It would be great to finally have a "barbarian" game on the 8bit !

 

8x32 walk refined further

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by TIX

[emkay]

1 hour ago, TIX said:

?

It would be great to finally have a "barbarian" game on the 8bit !

 

8x32 walk refined further

 

 

Could you do that with 16x64 pixel and 5 colors ?

 

 

 

 

[popmilo]

11 hours ago, explorer said:

It is precisely what I want to avoid. It makes no sense to do exactly the same. What I want is to take advantage of the hardware of the A8, still being the same game, but having "something different" and typical of the A8. And if I can't have the colors of the MSX2, at least try to scroll it, or a continuous map. Or improve animated tiles.

Agreed on that topic 1000% and more

 

Can you find good image of cpc and msx version ? All I found is scaled up with lot's of artifacts added... Wanna show you something, but need good source png or bmp in 320x200 or similar.

 

Quote

Emkay's 32 bytes, and your "what?"

So you've met Emkay I see ... He's known to be criptic sometimes and critical most of times, but he does make a good point from time to time.
And me to, have no idea what he's thinking with 32 byte covering whole screen.... Maybe if you cover edges of screen with black tape

 

[popmilo]

1 minute ago, popmilo said:

Can you find good image of cpc and msx version ? All I found is scaled up with lot's of artifacts added... Wanna show you something, but need good source png or bmp in 320x200 or similar.

Scratch that Found perfect msx images.
Request for cpc version good png still stands.

 

[popmilo]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:30 AM, emkay said:

That Wonderboy Hoax in the other thread shows all possible mistakes that could be done without even a single working game screen is there.  

Thanks for an honest assessment of something you haven't even seen 1% of work already done 

[Yaron Nir]

On 1/2/2020 at 10:24 AM, TIX said:

Looking pretty good in 8 pixels width, 2 +1 colors (I used the palette from Wonderboy  ),

now for the wider frames.. we must be creative !

 

@TIXmy friend, i am proud of you. you have a p-e-r-f-e-c-t eye!

and the fact that everything is consolidated into 8 pixel width keeps amazing me each and every time. well done!

[emkay]

1 hour ago, popmilo said:

So you've met Emkay I see ... He's known to be criptic sometimes and critical most of times, but he does make a good point from time to time.

And me to, have no idea what he's thinking with 32 byte covering whole screen.... Maybe if you cover edges of screen with black tape

 

 

The cryptic part is where people don't know what is there and what not. 

Being judgmental without looking behind things seems too easy. 

 

I had pointed before to what I was writing. 

The link to my "possible game" screen has also the needed information. People had just to read that. And, as no one was asking, one might think "they know it all"

 

The image uses the "real" resolution of 160x240, but the screen is spread to "192x240" it can scroll there and it could scroll at "192x240" even if the screen DMA is at 32 bytes per scanline. 

 

 

 

[explorer]

3 hours ago, popmilo said:

Scratch that Found perfect msx images.
Request for cpc version good png still stands.

 

There are some images of the development for CPC, but it is not finished yet.

It is seen that they are 320x200, 4 colors.

 

https://www.retromaniac.es/2020/01/the-sword-of-ianna-lucira-tambien.html

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by explorer

[popmilo]

4 hours ago, emkay said:

The image uses the "real" resolution of 160x240, but the screen is spread to "192x240" it can scroll there and it could scroll at "192x240" even if the screen DMA is at 32 bytes per scanline. 

Ok. So you're talking about having that Player or missiles "background" Going left and right over border so it appears like bacground layers is full screen width.
And moving Playfield gfx using hscroll to get that moving also some pixels left-right..

 

Yeah, doesn't sound like complication at all

 

I get the idea, but think I would go for something like gtia mode with 9 colors everytime. It's so simple compared to everything else out there. But it's just me...

 

[popmilo]

5 hours ago, explorer said:

There are some images of the development for CPC, but it is not finished yet.

It is seen that they are 320x200, 4 colors.

Ok, still not perfect (there are more than 4 colors in those images and I didn't count pixels for exact size, but this is what is like atari 100% easy gfx to make (160x114 in 4 colors in bitmap double scanline mode):

 

 

Both examples done using g2f so here is xex to see in emu or even better real atari

sword01.xex

sword09.xex

Gonna try something with msx version next. As I look at videos and screenshots, I like that game more and more

 

[emkay]

2 minutes ago, popmilo said:

Ok, still not perfect (there are more than 4 colors in those images and I didn't count pixels for exact size, but this is what is like atari 100% easy gfx to make (160x114 in 4 colors in bitmap double scanline mode):
 

 

 

On the CPC it is possible to change colors "midscreen" . The resolution can be changes aswell. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, popmilo said:

Ok. So you're talking about having that Player or missiles "background" Going left and right over border so it appears like bacground layers is full screen width.
And moving Playfield gfx using hscroll to get that moving also some pixels left-right..

 

What I'm proposing is not more complex than to program Miner 2049er... 

 

 

[emkay]

Actually, a Conversion job is really best using the hires mode with PMg overlay. 

 

The most impressive Atari version would look completely different. Depending on the real age of the System, the details always get their limits. But colors and ANTIC tricks can do their beneficial part.