Sega 32x : I'm really trying to prefer original hardware over emulation

[Steven Pendleton]

After Burner Complete and Space Harrier, mostly, especially Space Harrier's menu. For After Burner Complete, it's like looking through a partially focused telescope. Either the F14 is sharp and clear and the crosshair thing is blurry as hell or the crosshair is sharp and everything else is blurry as hell. Also the missiles at the bottom of the screen like to flicker a whole ton. Kolibri is mainly okay. I have not tested everything and I am using a Japanese Super 32X, so there are a few games that I can't play at all like Star Trek and of course Darxide.

[Steven Pendleton]

Oops, I forgot to mention that passthrough mode absolutely does not work on my monitor, so I'm not sure if it will work out. 5X doesn't work, either.

 

I only have 4 32X games, but I do have the rest on the MegaSD and I have not tested everything yet. I basically found that you have to configure the OSSC to either play 32X games or MD/Genesis games, and that settings for one will always cause the other to look horrible. I'd like to just leave the thing attached, but it's pretty annoying because of that and if I could get some settings just for 32X games, I'd be satisfied with having to remove it to get good video from my Mega Drive for those games.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well I have both Space Harrier and After Burner for the 32x so I can certainly pop them in and look. I do know I have two different profiles on my OSSC for the Genesis. One is pretty standard and set to 5x for most games. But for some others that use the 320mode I think? I have to use 3x or else I get these weird graphic anomalies in the signal. I posted about it in the Metal Blast homebrew thread. 

 

My 32x is always attached along with my model 2 segaCD although I don't see either being a cause for different issues. I can tell you that many 32x games actually use the Genesis to draw some of the graphics and the 32s to draw others. In most games the Genesis draws the backgrounds and the 32x draws the sprites that are used. So it could be that what you are describing is perhaps the Genesis video using one resolution and the 32x using something different and since the 32x provides the final picture you see on your TV then maybe something isn't jiving there properly.

 

Again, I will make a note to test these two out on mine and let you know.

 

[Steven Pendleton]

8 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

My 32x is always attached along with my model 2 segaCD although I don't see either being a cause for different issues. I can tell you that many 32x games actually use the Genesis to draw some of the graphics and the 32s to draw others. In most games the Genesis draws the backgrounds and the 32x draws the sprites that are used. So it could be that what you are describing is perhaps the Genesis video using one resolution and the 32x using something different and since the 32x provides the final picture you see on your TV then maybe something isn't jiving there properly.

This was my guess as well. It works just fine on my CRT, as it should, but the OSSC hates it. I could/should just use the CRT, but I don't want to sit on my fake wood floor if I can avoid it, the CRT itself is not set up properly, the pincushion is off, the display is too low and too far to the left, it has a weird patch where the color doesn't display properly, and the remote for it won't let me fix anything other than rotation.

 

So yeah, OSSC is sadly my best choice for now.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

2 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

So yeah, OSSC is sadly my best choice for now.

Well, all I know is that for me the OSSC is my best choice as my Genesis setup is the best looking system through the OSSC I have setup to my TV. Here are some pics from my camera phone just now through my 32x connected via HDRetrovision Component cables to AV2 of my OSSC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

@Steven Pendleton Thought you might be curious to know my OSSC settings I'm using? I have two Genesis profiles setup. The screen shots above for those games on the 32x were using my Genesis/SMS 256 mode I have setup.

 

Genesis/SMS 256 Settings:

 

Audio Options -

  Downsample = Off (96khz)

  Pre-ADC Gain = 0 dB

 

Post Proc -

   Reverse LPF = 0

 

Output Opt -

   240p/288p Proc = Line5x

   256x240 aspect = 4:3

   480p/576p proc = Passthru

   Line5X format = 1920x1200

   Line5x mode = Generic 4:3

 

Sync Opt -

   Analog sync LPF = 2.5mhz (Max)

   H-PLL Post Coast = 0

   H-PLL Pre Coast = 1

 

Sampling Opt -

   Adv Timing 1600x240

      V. Active = 240

      V. backporch = 15

      V. synclen = 3

      H. active = 1600

      H. backporch = 202

      H. synclen = 150

      H. s.rate adj = 2046.00

      H. samplerate = 2046.00

      Sampling phase = 180 deg

Allow upsample2x = off

Allow TVP HPLL2x = On

 

Video In Proc -

   Video LPF = 9Mhz (SDTV) Try different ones for subtle phase offset

 

Again these are the settings I'm using that seem to provide me with the best picture through my OSSC. I have mine updated with the new .85 fw that allows for the on screen display settings making it much easier to tweak it. I have an older 2015 Sony Bravia LED 1080P flat panel that I play all my games on and Sony Bravia's are notorious for not working well with retro consoles in 240p modes. Hence why I got the OSSC. The Genesis and Saturn are exceptions in that they do work without the OSSC but the OSSC still gives me better finite control.

[Steven Pendleton]

Great, thanks a lot. I've not been able to take any good pictures of my flickering mess of a screen, unfortunately. I'll give this a try tonight after work.

[derFunkenstein]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:14 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

Is it actually possible to run 32X games through the OSSC and not have a ton of flickering? No matter what timings I set it to, something somewhere on the screen is always trying to flicker out of existence. Low pass filter helps greatly for some things while breaking others, and after checking every single setting for the H. samplerate individually, I still have not found one that actually looks good.

I haven't had any problems but it mighjt be the specific games or specific Mega Drive / Genesis model. I have a model 1 VA6.5 and a model 2 VA3, and both of those are fine with the US 32X library for me. Using an Insurrection Industries SCART cable and a Bandridge five-port SCART selector. 

[Steven Pendleton]

Just now, derFunkenstein said:

I haven't had any problems but it mighjt be the specific games or specific Mega Drive / Genesis model. I have a model 1 VA6.5 and a model 2 VA3, and both of those are fine with the US 32X library for me. Using an Insurrection Industries SCART cable and a Bandridge five-port SCART selector. 

It's a Japanese VA4 MD with Japanese Super 32X and HD Retrovision cable. Maybe it's the cable, but from what I gather there shouldn't be a huge difference between SCART and component. I also don't want to buy a SCART cable since my CRT only has RF, D-terminal, S-video, composite, and YCbCr. Same cable works absolutely perfectly without the 32X and on the PC Engine. I really think the whole thing where the MD renders some stuff and the 32X renders some other stuff is the issue.

[derFunkenstein]

OK, so the VA4 is the specific model that has tons of 32X issues related to flickering and the like. You might need to look at those links I posted on the first page with some modifications required for VA4 compatibility. 

 

Although TBH if it works with composite, I'd be surprised that it doesn't work with component. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by derFunkenstein

[Steven Pendleton]

31 minutes ago, derFunkenstein said:

OK, so the VA4 is the specific model that has tons of 32X issues related to flickering and the like. You might need to look at those links I posted on the first page with some modifications required for VA4 compatibility. 

 

Although TBH if it works with composite, I'd be surprised that it doesn't work with component. 

Yeah, I'll just leave it stock. There is what looks to be an 88 original here in town that I want to buy anyway. That should give me a VA0 or VA1 motherboard.

 

I've not tried 32X with composite, though, just the MD alone to see how it looked on the CRT (terrible, as expected). I'll probably just use it only on the CRT, since there is literally no problem there. Of course the CRT isn't set up properly, but at least it looks relatively good. Thanks.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[+-^CrossBow^-]

35 minutes ago, derFunkenstein said:

OK, so the VA4 is the specific model that has tons of 32X issues related to flickering and the like. You might need to look at those links I posted on the first page with some modifications required for VA4 compatibility. 

 

Although TBH if it works with composite, I'd be surprised that it doesn't work with component. 

You know what is interesting about all of this...is that Console5 just added this to their store offerings and now include this in their 32x cap kits..

 

https://console5.com/store/sega-genesis-32x-mega-drive-32x-super-32x-video-noise-fix-mini-cap-kit.html/

 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

13 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

You know what is interesting about all of this...is that Console5 just added this to their store offerings and now include this in their 32x cap kits..

 

https://console5.com/store/sega-genesis-32x-mega-drive-32x-super-32x-video-noise-fix-mini-cap-kit.html/

 

 

Yeah, I am not into modding stuff (SuperGrafx motherboard support post removal and Nomad upgrades are the 2 exceptions), but I definitely approve of repairs. My Mega-CD is doing the thing where it constantly spits out the disc tray as of a few months ago and the battery was dead when I got it. Good thing I got the MegaSD before that started happening. I really should get it and all of my other old things serviced. Maybe a recap would help the 32X, but this issue only happens on OSSC and not the CRT, where it is literally perfect, so I'm not entirely sure what's going on.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[+-^CrossBow^-]

22 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Yeah, I am not into modding stuff (SuperGrafx motherboard support post removal and Nomad upgrades are the 2 exceptions), but I definitely approve of repairs. My Mega-CD is doing the thing where it constantly spits out the disc tray as of a few months ago and the battery was dead when I got it. Good thing I got the MegaSD before that started happening. I really should get it and all of my other old things serviced. Maybe a recap would help the 32X, but this issue only happens on OSSC and not the CRT, where it is literally perfect, so I'm not entirely sure what's going on.

This isn't a mod though. It is a separate kit to replace some of the components on the 32x to help with noise issues in the signal and is now part of the cap kit for the 32x as well sold by Console5. For the record the HDretrovision cables and the OSSC should work just fine as I've shown you with my examples above on my model 1 with model 2 segaCD and an original 32x release 8000 not the 8000A model.

 

I also had this working just fine with my original model 1 SegaCD also and I've tested this setup on a Jpn MD va3 that I own along with versions of the model 2 units and it has always just worked for me. The ONLY game to give me issues with the OSSC that I've not found any settings that work, is the 2 player mode for Sonic 2. That screen will constantly drop in and out when the Genesis is in that mode no matter what I do. But that is more a fault with my TV and not the OSSC in this case.

 

So while what you describe does sound like something with the 32x, the fact that you don't have these issues on a CRT would lead to it being an issue with your TV and not the OSSC specifically. Unless you tested all of these on a few different brands of LCDs via HDMI with the same results?

 

[Steven Pendleton]

9 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

This isn't a mod though. It is a separate kit to replace some of the components on the 32x to help with noise issues in the signal and is now part of the cap kit for the 32x as well sold by Console5. For the record the HDretrovision cables and the OSSC should work just fine as I've shown you with my examples above on my model 1 with model 2 segaCD and an original 32x release 8000 not the 8000A model.

 

I also had this working just fine with my original model 1 SegaCD also and I've tested this setup on a Jpn MD va3 that I own along with versions of the model 2 units and it has always just worked for me. The ONLY game to give me issues with the OSSC that I've not found any settings that work, is the 2 player mode for Sonic 2. That screen will constantly drop in and out when the Genesis is in that mode no matter what I do. But that is more a fault with my TV and not the OSSC in this case.

 

So while what you describe does sound like something with the 32x, the fact that you don't have these issues on a CRT would lead to it being an issue with your TV and not the OSSC specifically. Unless you tested all of these on a few different brands of LCDs via HDMI with the same results?

 

Interesting. I dismissed it as a mod and ignored it when I first saw it on RetroRGB a while ago.

 

I know Sonic 2 split-screen breaks through the Framemeister on a modern display. I forgot what happened with the OSSC since it's been a while, but I am pretty sure it didn't work very well. I think I vaguely remember maybe not having audio or something strange like that. It does work on the Mega Sg, where it runs in an interlaced mode, and the Mega Drive/Genesis Mini, where it actually runs in progressive! That's a software emulator, though, so it can do things like that... along with having massive input lag that I find makes the game unplayable. Most other games on it are okay, but not Sonic 2. Not sure about how the RAD2x or RetroTINK-2X handle Sonic 2 split-screen.

 

I only have 2 screens in my house: a CRT and a PC monitor. Nothing else available.

[Steven Pendleton]

You know, I found a Wondermega RG-M2 the other day. It's only 43000 yen, I think, but it has no power cable. I have a ton of Sega PSUs because of the Mega Drive tower, so if it's still there when I get paid on Wednesday, I will maybe go pick it up to see if it works with the 32X properly on the OSSC. I do not know what PSU any of those specialty Mega Drive/Genesis models use though, and I don't want to fry it by trying the wrong one. Time to do some research. They also have a Genesis CDX for a little over double that price, but I definitely can't afford to spend almost $1000 on a CDX.

 

And I forgot something. Are you using the metal clips for the cart slot? I do not have those. I doubt it would make a difference, but I might as well ask. Thanks.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[Steven Pendleton]

I really hate to triple post (sorry!), but I just learned that the Wondermega does not have native RGB output, which it swapped for native S-video. How strange and very unfortunate. I am not so sure I want it anymore, but would it be possible to get RGB from the 32X if I added it to the Wondermega? Probably not, though I do not know for certain. Might pass on the Wondermega because of this, sadly, but I might still get it anyway if it is still there next week.

 

After checking, it seems to me that no mods = no RGB Wondermega 32X. Sadness.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I can't speak about the JPN versions of the Wondermega. It was called the X'Eye here and it has the same output port that a Model 2 has so as I understand it, you can use a 32x with the X'eye. In fact it was even possible to get a replacement top cover from JVC to accommodate use of the 32x since it overlaps the CD door a bit. Also 43k yen sounds a bit high to me. That is just over $380USD and most x'eye consoles loose do NOT fetch that much here. Then again you do have s-video output on yours and they took that off from the US version so...ehh.

 

BTW...NO I'm not using the metal clips although I do have them. I've never had an issue where they were needed and was never fond of messing with them in the past. As I have an everdrive x7, I do have to remove the 32x from time to time to play some games through it or have full functionality of the ED cart.

 

[Steven Pendleton]

4 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I can't speak about the JPN versions of the Wondermega. It was called the X'Eye here and it has the same output port that a Model 2 has so as I understand it, you can use a 32x with the X'eye. In fact it was even possible to get a replacement top cover from JVC to accommodate use of the 32x since it overlaps the CD door a bit. Also 43k yen sounds a bit high to me. That is just over $380USD and most x'eye consoles loose do NOT fetch that much here. Then again you do have s-video output on yours and they took that off from the US version so...ehh.

 

BTW...NO I'm not using the metal clips although I do have them. I've never had an issue where they were needed and was never fond of messing with them in the past. As I have an everdrive x7, I do have to remove the 32x from time to time to play some games through it or have full functionality of the ED cart.

 

Yeah, it seems they removed RGB for S-video. They actually made a converter box that looks kind of like an RF switch so you can do S-video -> 32X. At that point, I am pretty sure I'd be getting S-video quality for the MD-rendered stuff and RGB quality for the 32X rendered stuff if I used HD Retrovision.

 

As far as I know, the only difference between the Wondermega RG-M2 and the X'Eye is the manufacturer (Victor vs JVC), the name of the system, language of the CD BIOS, and the region being set to NTSC-J instead of NTSC-U. USA never got the Wondermega RG-M1, though, and that one is really cool looking. I have seen a handful of RG-M2s here (or maybe it was the same one sitting there unsold, which is rare for Super Potato), but none of them had the 32X CD cover. That thing is super rare. Mega Drive is considerably more expensive here, though. The only Sonic & Knuckles I was able to find at all in Akiba when I bought mine was 9000 yen cart-only, and Japanese Comix Zone is over $1000. Both of those are probably sub-$10 in the USA. At least they used to be.

 

They also have a US CDX for 93,000 yen, as well, but that's considered a rare import, and even that is still WAY cheaper and easier to find than the Japanese equivalent (Linguaphone Education Gear).

 

Anyway, I will look into the 32X + Wondermega combo some more. I am even more uncertain about buying it now since I can get a Neo Geo for the same price or less.

[derFunkenstein]

The original Wondermega apparently only had S-Video but according to pictures on SegaRetro, the Wondermega M2 had both S-Video and the 9-pin Mega Drive 2 mini-DIN. 

[Steven Pendleton]

47 minutes ago, derFunkenstein said:

The original Wondermega apparently only had S-Video but according to pictures on SegaRetro, the Wondermega M2 had both S-Video and the 9-pin Mega Drive 2 mini-DIN. 

Nope. That's RF/AV and uses something different. Take a look at the illustration of it here, and I have gone and translated a little bit of it for you guys. No Google Translate required!

 

http://dempa.jp/rgb/heaven/g_wm2.html

 

勘違いしている人がいるようですが、ワンダーメガ系にはMD2互換のAV出力端子は付いていません。
したがって、MD/MD2系の映像ケーブル類は一切使えません。= It seems there are people who misunderstand, but the Wondermegas are not equipped with MD2 compatible AV output. Therefore, MD/MD2-style video cables of any sort can't be used.

 

It does seem that Victor offered an official RGB mod to get RGB -> 32X support, though, and this is where the altered CD tray cover is mentioned as well. ->

 

ビクターへ送ってスーパー32X対応化の改修をしてもらい、32X経由でMD2用RGBケーブルを使うのが正式な作法です。改修するとトレイカバーが交換され、32Xと接続する専用ケーブルが付属します。

 

It also seems I have found Japanese RetroRGB!

 

I also want to add that if it was the Wondermega RG-M1, I would buy it without hesitation because that thing is seriously awesome. Thread is quasi-derailed, but at least we're still keeping it relevant to using the 32X with it.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[seastalker]

I want to offer an honest warning about the Sega 32X Video Noise Fix by Kevtris as posted by SmokeMonster on RetroRGB. Disclaimer: I have massive respect for Kevtris, SmokeMonster and Bob and the crew of RetroRGB and the following is hopefully CLEARLY independent of anything having to do with any of them. I've been working with some in the gaming community on the 32x experience. I wanted to share my 32x hardware experiences with the community.

 

My most recent work includes recapping a working 32x in the way Console5 intended, PRIOR to the Kevtris fix. That means, use the current cap kit, but without altering the lower board C30 ceramic cap and on the top board,  C17 getting the Console5 originally suggested   470uf  10v cap.

 

ALL WAS GLORIOUS today with this configuration.  Sound and picture was very sharp running through the HD Retrovision cables. I loaded the complete library of games and took notes on my component video Panasonic CRT array. I wanted to observe video noise from other artifacts and share them.  Was I seeing 'noise' or something else? I soon concluded that video artifacts on the borders might be a CRT issue or overscan area while other things like white pixel flicker on Sega logos might be the 'noise' Kevrtis mentioned, or I might see the noise only via composite.

 

- Star Wars - noise or gfx glitch on right side of screen both on real cart and MegaSD rom

- Spiderman Web of Fire - gfx glitch below, then title screen above city green lasers  and pink overscan

- Blackthorne - Sega logo has white flicker, then 8 pixel specks of white on title screen, upper left

- RBI baseball - When swing connects with ball, speckles come before switch to new screen.

- Shadow Squadron - flicker on top screen before launch

- WWF Raw - top flicker

 

Funny, I might remember these things on screen back in the 90s. I then moved the CRT HD Retrovision setup to a 40 inch Samsung LED tv via Genesis HDMI cable (Pound brand I think). White and washed out aside due to the cable, though MOST of the above issues went away!  Star Wars still had the gfx artifacts on the right side of screen, and I wanted to see if I could get rid of flicker on some title screens in games so I tried the Kevtris fix, involving replacing two capacitors. Here is where it went wrong:

 

1. Perfectly working 32x, recapped per Console5 specs prior to the Kevtris fix.

2. After fix, now I have a problem where some gfx is not showing. I.E. Star Wars - Logo only half comes in, and some gfx appear. Sound is perfect but no imperial destroyer before famous credit crawl. I think this means that the Genesis side is working but the 32x side is not.

 

Again, the problem is NOT Kevtris. The fix requires a (MICROSCOPIC!!) Surface Mount ceramic capacitor replacement. HERE IS THE PROBLEM: Unless you have the experience, and the magnification via microscope, from my experience, it is not worth messing up your 32x for!  I have a magnifying glass, but trying to get the right leg installed without solder bridging with the surface mount next to it is VERY hard. Being fair, I am still fairly new to surface mount component repairs. Unless you are on your A game in soldering, AND your 32x requires this upgrade, I'd say pass it to a pro or stick with the standard re-cap.

 

That said, please PM me if you or someone you recommend does 32x repairs.  

 

 

I kinda have two threads about this, one on Desoldering woes or journeys and this more specific one about the 32x.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

The secret to SMD repair without a hot air station is to use a lot of flux! Flux keeps that solder on the pads where it belongs and keeps it from bridging. I'm not expert on SMD stuff but if I take my time and go liberal with the liquid flux use, then I'm able to get it done. 

 

Then again as you can see from my profile pic, I do have assistance in the magnification department as I wear these for all work I do since I have a hard time even reading the values on components without them.

 

[seastalker]

CrossBow, do you suggest any magnification gear? I've been thinking about them. I can't deal with a standard one piece like on a helping hands or a standalone. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well I don't have a microscope for working on stuff if that is what you mean? Most of the service work I do is classic/retro consoles that tend to have larger components on them and easier to work on. I've done some SMD stuff like game gear LCD upgrades, DCHDMI installs and a few other things. So far for what I've done, this less than $20 headgear I wear has been up to the task just fine.