Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Stephen said: I really do apologize for my hostile post. Apology accepted. I got most angered due to your allegation that I am opposed to (or even want to forbid) using modern hardware. Which I never said and is the opposite of the truth. I only try to make people understand the very significant differences from a developer perspective. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: I'm sure that I'm not the only one who had to look up the meaning of "polemic"! The term is very frequently used in German, so I am bit surprised here. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) On 1/7/2020 at 7:53 PM, johnnywc said: If I didn't have 10 or so other 2600 projects I was working on, I would consider it... I think it may be a good exercise to see what kind of Galaga port could be done with the technology of the time, perhaps with 32K, extra RAM (SARA, CBS RAM+, etc.) and with the DPC chip. I already know the formation would be almost identical to what it is now since it's almost identical to the way Atari did it for Galaxian, so the rest would be needed to implement the enemies flying in, the double ship logic, etc. Hi John very cool thoughts! CBS RAM+ and the SuperCharger have a lot of potential, even up against a modern chip - I was hoping to compete against a couple of your ports using those technologies at SillyVenture this year in the Game category when I read that Al was submitting them! Great thoughts btw, I was thinking similarly but wondering the opposite - what kind of Atari Space Invaders port could be done with the ARM to compare to my CBS RAM+ version below; we already have one, the ARM only version that uses a different video system on the Atari Flashback to be more like the Arcade, similar to Frogger. But it cannot run on a classic Atari console, only the Atari Flashback and some do not consider it a genuine Atari game because it does not use the TIA. There are plenty of awesome 6502 Space Invaders ports, SPACEINV21 done with the semigraphics being one of my favorites. But with the ARM, you could really push the graphics like some of the more modern trippy ports of space invaders we've seen released over the years with lots of mesmerizing graphics Fx and chip tunes to make a demo graphics type game - I'd love to see what can be done with the ARM! Here is my CBS RAM+ modern themed port pushing the TIA with a 14 minute play through and two cut scenes, it's only 7K, the third bank is unused I've been trying to optimize it to run on the SuperCharger too: Edited January 10, 2020 by Mr SQL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AW127 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) On 1/9/2020 at 9:52 PM, Stephen said: By this logic, nobody should develop hardware upgrades for our old machines because that will possibly make people write code for those upgrades. For me, this is not the main-point. Of course people can and should write software for the upgrades, it's also interesting, how far it can go technically. But the problem and the main-point is, that this could finally prevent programers, from writing normal games for our beloved Atari VCS-2600 in the future. THIS is the problem in my opinion. And i don't think, that you, as a Atari-2600 fan like we all are, would like it, when no normal games would come out in the future for the machine. I really DON'T hope, that this will happen, i just express my fear, that it could happen. And it can happen. And if it happens, what ARM-supported games then have to do with the real Atari-2600 hardware in the future, when they are not bound on the limits of the real console? Then borders disappear and the Atari-2600 games could loose their special characteristics in the future. Would be sad, i think. But okay, it's not possible to stop the march of time, but sad it would be anyway. Hope, people understand me right, this is not a critic on the game "Galagon" itself, it's more a general outlook what could eventually happen to our Atari-2600 and it's games. Edited January 11, 2020 by AW127 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 7:53 PM, johnnywc said: If I didn't have 10 or so other 2600 projects I was working on, I would consider it... Exactly how broke do you want me to be??!!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AW127 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/8/2020 at 1:53 AM, johnnywc said: I think it may be a good exercise to see what kind of Galaga port could be done with the technology of the time, perhaps with 32K, extra RAM (SARA, CBS RAM+, etc.) and with the DPC chip. Yes, this would be very very interesting indeed. I asked myself this question very often, since i saw this great looking game the first time. Maybe sometime such a version of the game will come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 22 minutes ago, AW127 said: For me, this is not the main-point. Of course people can and should write software for the upgrades, it's also interesting, how far it can go technically. But the problem and the main-point is, that this could finally prevent programers, from writing normal games for our beloved Atari VCS-2600 in the future. THIS is the problem in my opinion. And i don't think, that you, as a Atari-2600 fan like we all are, would like it, when no normal games would come out in the future for the machine. I really DON'T hope, that this will happen, i just express my fear, that it could happen. And it can happen. And if it happens, what ARM-supported games then have to do with the real Atari-2600 hardware in the future, when they are not bound on the limits of the real console? Then borders disappear and the Atari-2600 games could loose their special characteristics in the future. Would be sad, i think. But okay, it's not possible to stop the march of time, but sad it would be anyway. Hope, people understand me right, this is not a critic on the game "Galagon" itself, it's more a general outlook what could eventually happen to our Atari-2600 and it's games. This is a valid point, and I again apologize for such a harsh original post. I really don't think development will ever stop. But this does bring up a thought. Perhaps development will just get a bit more segregated to to speak. You'll have the easy to whip out games coded in BASIC, the "proper" old school pure 6507 games using perhaps at most bank switching carts, and the top-tier ARM enhanced stuff. I'm thrilled that we have such an amazing Galaga port for the 2600, and slightly jealous that the 2600 got it before the 400/800computers did Can't say I ever saw that happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 46 minutes ago, AW127 said: But the problem and the main-point is, that this could finally prevent programers, from writing normal games for our beloved Atari VCS-2600 in the future. THIS is the problem in my opinion. There's nothing preventing a programmer from doing whatever they want - case in point, one of the coolest 2600 homebrews of 2019 is a 1K game that doesn't even use RAM. Your fear-mongering is the problem in my opinion, it's literally making me not want to write new games for the 2600. 3 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegamatrix Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Darrell, your games are great. Space Rocks is one of my favorite 2600 games. The work that you and others have done to make tools that allow us to push the 2600 beyond previous limits is phenomimal. Please keep it up. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamchevy Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Another great couple of games to add to the champ games line up would be Pick Axe Pete or K.C.’s Crazy Chase. I know you have many other projects at the moment, but I am a patient man with a lot of life left hopefully. I really miss me some Odyssey 2, and these would make great 2600 games!! A 2 player version of those wonderful Odyssey 2 games would be amazing! Thanks again for doing Galagon! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegamatrix Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Also, Galagon is the game of the year hands down. While John has said a decent port could have been done without the ARM, after seeing how well it came out why would you want anything different? I mean really does it make any sense that we should purposely downgrade games? 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamchevy Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Also, Galagon is the game of the year hands down. While John has said a decent port could have been done without the ARM, after seeing how well it came out why would you want anything different? I mean really does it make any sense that we should purposely downgrade games?No! I love what is possible with the ARM processor on the 2600. It really is a great breath of life into this old console. I think it will continue to bring many new people to the 2600. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Omegamatrix said: Also, Galagon is the game of the year hands down. While John has said a decent port could have been done without the ARM, after seeing how well it came out why would you want anything different? I mean really does it make any sense that we should purposely downgrade games? From the viewpoint of a consumer this make sense, but from the viewpoint of a developer this totally misses the point. Writing for "bare bones" '2600 is not a "downgrade". It is a challenge requiring a different type of skill. So yes, it makes total sense. It depends on who you are and why you do what you do. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+johnnywc Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, adamchevy said: Another great couple of games to add to the champ games line up would be Pick Axe Pete or K.C.’s Crazy Chase. I know you have many other projects at the moment, but I am a patient man with a lot of life left hopefully. I really miss me some Odyssey 2, and these would make great 2600 games!! A 2 player version of those wonderful Odyssey 2 games would be amazing! I only played the Odyssey 2 back in the day at a friend's house and was always intrigued by it. I don't think I ever played K.C.'s Crazy Chase but I have played Pick Axe Pete a bunch of times and it's one of my favorites! I did start a port of it for the 2600 about 12 years ago and would love to finish it someday so it's a possibility! (it would be 100% assembly too ) 1 hour ago, adamchevy said: Thanks again for doing Galagon! You're welcome, I'm glad you're enjoying it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegamatrix Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Andrew Davie said: From the viewpoint of a consumer this make sense, but from the viewpoint of a developer this totally misses the point. Writing for "bare bones" '2600 is not a "downgrade". It is a challenge requiring a different type of skill. So yes, it makes total sense. It depends on who you are and why you do what you do. I didn't say "bare bones" now, did I? I'm not even sure what you would consider "bare bones" either... some people are like 2K with no illegal ops. Others are like any type of format that was availble back in the day (even those like 32SC which was only used for one game after the crash). Still others draw the line at co-processors, yet Pitfall II had one and was a game back in the day. I don't want to debate what bare bones is with you. My point is just that it a slipperly slope of definitions. It's more or less up to the user to decide what it means. I'm a great lover of doing challenging things on the 6502. Some of the most fun I had in while was making 32 byte roms. Yep, just 32 bytes. What I'm most proud of is that they not only are displaying something, but that the scanline count is stable, and VSYNC is being done. I made 10 of them. It was fun, and you don't get much more bare bones than that. Note the roms are padded to 2,048 bytes, but are in fact 32 bytes. 32ByteRoms.zip Now that I have started dipping my own toe into ARM development I can honestly say the expierence is quite different than I imagined it would be. I'm finding that whatever additional resources you get come with unique constraints of their own, and it is indeed challenging in the right sorts of ways. Overall whatever you gain with the ARM you just end up consuming by throwing more into the game, and in the end you are still squeezing stuff in and don't really have enough time for everything. Typical stuff. So for me the tradeoff is a wash in terms of challenge. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) On 1/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, Mr SQL said: The audio in this port is epic!?? Edited January 12, 2020 by Kosmic Stardust 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 9 hours ago, SpiceWare said: There's nothing preventing a programmer from doing whatever they want - case in point, one of the coolest 2600 homebrews of 2019 is a 1K game that doesn't even use RAM. Your fear-mongering is the problem in my opinion, it's literally making me not want to write new games for the 2600. Interesting spin. I personally loved the old 128 byte RAM PONG which consisted of a loader that pumped the game into the RAM before disconnecting the ROM. You can pull the cart out even! ? I would love to see someone do this for the NES. That would be impossible though since the transparent color is always active, rendering all character sprites and background sprites invisible. Bus stuffing the ppu to change the background color might work though... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenJ Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 14 hours ago, adamchevy said: Another great couple of games to add to the champ games line up would be Pick Axe Pete or K.C.’s Crazy Chase. I know you have many other projects at the moment, but I am a patient man with a lot of life left hopefully. I really miss me some Odyssey 2, and these would make great 2600 games!! A 2 player version of those wonderful Odyssey 2 games would be amazing! Thanks again for doing Galagon! I'll second that! If you decide to do these ports, please consider adding a multiple-lives option :0) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I think it would be nice for ARM-based games to have a nifty "ARM-enhanced" logo on the packaging to make it easier for consumers to see the difference at a glance. Apart from that, I think there is plenty of room in our community for both types of games, and I doubt ARM-based games will edge-out development and interest in more traditional games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, Karl G said: I think it would be nice for ARM-based games to have a nifty "ARM-enhanced" logo on the packaging to make it easier for consumers to see the difference at a glance. This is already present on each game's page in the AtariAge store. Look for the Melody logo. There's a description next to it about the game using the Melody board, and a link to a more thorough description of what the Melody board advantages are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said: This is already present on each game's page in the AtariAge store. Look for the Melody logo. There's a description next to it about the game using the Melody board, and a link to a more thorough description of what the Melody board advantages are. Oh, I know the information is there to be found. I just thought something more visible and easy to understand at a glance might be useful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, Karl G said: to make it easier for consumers to see the difference at a glance. This has never been hidden information, check any game in the AtariAge store and it spells out the hardware in the cartridge. and so on. For games that use the Melody there's a link, such as this one for Draconian, which expands upon what that means. Quote Additional Information Draconian is a Melody-enhanced game that takes full advantage of the CDF mode in the Melody. So the calls of "we need to label it", despite the fact that we've been upfront about it been all along, comes across as though we're being deceitful to the community. It's a large part of what's turned me off from further 2600 development as, quite frankly, I don't need to deal with that shit. I plan to finish my CDFJ tutorial in the Harmony/Melody club, but after that I just don't know. 1 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Bah. My apologies @SpiceWare and anyone else who took what I said the way you did. I was just picturing a cutesy ARM-enhanced logo as a positive thing (not a warning!) to add to packaging of games that use it. By no means was I implying any kind of deceit, nor anything negative about these games at all. As I said, I think there's plenty of room for both kinds of games in our community. I am one who plans to give it a try myself eventually, and had intended to check out your tutorial myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0c7 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 31 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said: This is already present on each game's page in the AtariAge store. Look for the Melody logo. I don't think the Melody logo automatically means it is an enhanced game. Dungeon II's store page has the Melody logo on it and it is a regular 4k game. I think it just means Al is using Melody boards because it makes his life easier. The "Cartridge Size" spells it out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, s0c7 said: I don't think the Melody logo automatically means it is an enhanced game. Dungeon II's store page has the Melody logo on it and it is a regular 4k game. I suspect that's a copy/paste error from when @Albert created the store entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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