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Legacy versus ARM-based 2600 Game Development


Thomas Jentzsch

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48 minutes ago, Karl G said:

Bah. My apologies @SpiceWare and anyone else who took what I said the way you did.

 

As a one-off it's fine, but when combined with numerous other comments along the lines of "it's not a real Atari game" and comments like this (emphasis added):

On 1/6/2020 at 1:20 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said:

This is frustrating for many developers who try to stick close to the original specs, following self-imposed limitations and try to create something which was realistically possible back then. Some have already given up developing for the 2600 due to this (public or silently). And being part of an already very small group, that's my biggest concern.

 

Then what I'm hearing is people don't appreciate/are dismissive of my efforts, some consider them deceitful, and they've actually been detrimental to the community.

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3 hours ago, SpiceWare said:


This has never been hidden information, check any game in the AtariAge store and it spells out the hardware in the cartridge.

 

On some of the questions from different people here in this thread, you can easily see, that they don't know, that the game is enhanced. Not all people here are specialists to the Atari-2600 and it's games.

 

3 hours ago, SpiceWare said:

So the calls of "we need to label it", despite the fact that we've been upfront about it been all along, comes across as though we're being deceitful to the community. It's a large part of what's turned me off from further 2600 development as, quite frankly, I don't need to deal with that shit.

 

You react this way, other programmers react in another way. Alot of programmers don't want to program the ARM and when bad comments then come about the "normal" games of these programmers, they probably stop making new games. That's an equally valid point to your statement. What has programing the ARM to do with the Atari-2600 and it's normal technical limits anymore?

 

3 hours ago, Karl G said:

Bah. My apologies @SpiceWare and anyone else who took what I said the way you did. I was just picturing a cutesy ARM-enhanced logo as a positive thing (not a warning!) to add to packaging of games that use it. By no means was I implying any kind of deceit, nor anything negative about these games at all. As I said, I think there's plenty of room for both kinds of games in our community. I am one who plans to give it a try myself eventually, and had intended to check out your tutorial myself.

No excuse necessary "Karl G", for valid points. I see it the same way like you. It should be easier for beginners, to keep apart the different type of games, here the normal ones, in which programmers must cope with the limits of the Atari-2600 itself and here the other ones, which takes profit from the ARM controller.

 

2 hours ago, SpiceWare said:

 

Then what I'm hearing is people don't appreciate/are dismissive of my efforts, some consider them deceitful, and they've actually been detrimental to the community.

It was explained many times, that it's not a critic on these games itself and that they are great looking with good gameplay. But when, for example, for my C64 as many Super-CPU-games would come out as normal C64 games and when then, in the end of the year, people would name mostly SCPU-games for the "favorites of the year", i would make the same statement, that i made here with my fear, that normal C64 could disappear in the future. Should people simply overlook, that something like this could happen?

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3 hours ago, SpiceWare said:

Then what I'm hearing is people don't appreciate/are dismissive of my efforts, some consider them deceitful, and they've actually been detrimental to the community.

As someone who buys homebrews to play them, all I can say is, my collection includes 4k as well as ARM based games. I decide to buy games based on their gameplay. I purchased Space Rocks and Galagon, because IMO their gameplay is great. I also have Hunchy II, Assembloids and Wall Jump Ninja (all 4k) because again, I consider their gameplay to be great.
 

I certainly appreciate the effort that all of you decide to undertake when making these games and would hope that this thread does not curtail any future development.

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3 hours ago, SpiceWare said:

Then what I'm hearing is people don't appreciate/are dismissive of my efforts, some consider them deceitful, and they've actually been detrimental to the community.

IMO it is clearly not the games' or your fault (you are doing your very best to make everything fully transparent), but how the ARM and non ARM games are treated by too(?) many people. They are comparing apples and oranges, and even tend to believe that some great modern games tower above the master pieces of the developer legends of the past. There is a risk that this becomes mainstream and then will affect the console's history.

 

Personally I tend to ignore such ignorant comments, but somehow they add up at the back of my mind. 

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30 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said:

As someone who buys homebrews to play them, all I can say is, my collection includes 4k as well as ARM based games. I decide to buy games based on their gameplay. I purchased Space Rocks and Galagon, because IMO their gameplay is great. I also have Hunchy II, Assembloids and Wall Jump Ninja (all 4k) because again, I consider their gameplay to be great.
 

I certainly appreciate the effort that all of you decide to undertake when making these games and would hope that this thread does not curtail any future development.

This, this, this! Games are meant to be fun. If you have fun and get enjoyment out of playing it doesn't matter what kind of technology is crammed in the cart.

 

And it doesn't matter if I'm playing Mario Odyssey or Breath of the Wild on my Nintendo Switch, or Assembloids or Poodle/Aeomeba Jump on my Atari.

 

1977 vs 2017 technology. Both hook up and display fine on my 4k tcl TV. The Atari is a special place in history and homebrews make it timeless. The technology behind the game isn't the issue. We are playing brand new fun games on a 42 year old console.

 

The 6502 purists can go sit down. Don't play any new games period, unless they were developed on ticker tape and eprom burners. Did the old hat devs have modern emulators and illegal opcodes? Nope.

 

So can the graphic fans likewise sit down. If you value fancy graphics over gameplay on an Atari game, why are you even here? Go sell your old crap to someone who will enjoy it, and get a Switch or PS4.

Edited by Kosmic Stardust
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23 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Personally I tend to ignore such ignorant comments, but somehow they add up at the back of my mind.

I know it’s easy for me to say, but please ignore them. 
 

Looking forward to a Robot City cart release.?

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6 hours ago, AW127 said:

On some of the questions from different people here in this thread, you can easily see, that they don't know, that the game is enhanced. Not all people here are specialists to the Atari-2600 and it's games.

After learning that the games are marked to their type I consider this resolved and a moot point. In the end people are going to play the game and love it or hate it on its own merits.

 

 

6 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

As someone who buys homebrews to play them, all I can say is, my collection includes 4k as well as ARM based games. I decide to buy games based on their gameplay. I purchased Space Rocks and Galagon, because IMO their gameplay is great. I also have Hunchy II, Assembloids and Wall Jump Ninja (all 4k) because again, I consider their gameplay to be great.

I love Wall Jump Ninja. ? I'm said this so much in the past few days that I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but once again a great game is a great game no matter how it is made. A great game will always shine through.

 

 

6 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

They are comparing apples and oranges, and even tend to believe that some great modern games tower above the master pieces of the developer legends of the past. There is a risk that this becomes mainstream and then will affect the console's history.

Of course it is possible that someone, somehow, will create the best Atari 2600 game ever, and that it will be done today. Hey, it might even be a 1K game! I don't think it's fair to say that masterpieces of the past can never be surpassed.

 

Honestly, I would expect a game written 40 years ago to look a little less polished than one made today. This is not being offensive to the old game, its just progression. Progression then and now is also part of the consoles history, no?

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I’m grateful for all of the great games that I have in my life because of all of the great Atari programmers here on Atariage past and present.

I recently rewatched the Stella at 20 videos and I am profoundly grateful for those early pioneers that brought the VCS to life.

It would be strange not to have the VCS in my life. It’s also strange to think that video games are as old as they are. The world has been enjoying home video games since 1972. Almost 50 years!

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6 hours ago, Omegamatrix said:

Of course it is possible that someone, somehow, will create the best Atari 2600 game ever, and that it will be done today. Hey, it might even be a 1K game! I don't think it's fair to say that masterpieces of the past can never be surpassed.

 

Honestly, I would expect a game written 40 years ago to look a little less polished than one made today. This is not being offensive to the old game, its just progression. Progression then and now is also part of the consoles history, no?

Of course we have progress and yes, our games might be able to surpass the masters of the past. But this has to be seen in context. Not only the hardware used, but also tools, time, knowledge etc. Apples and oranges.

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21 hours ago, Karl G said:

Oh, I know the information is there to be found. I just thought something more visible and easy to understand at a glance might be useful.

This is a great idea, there should probably be three main categories to make it clear what type of Atari game it is, and a year to go by to gauge the retroness.

 

Classic - Classic Atari game, subcategory can indicate year of the technology; 1977 2K/4K, 1980 Sara, 1981 Starpath SuperCharger, 1983 CBS RAM+

 

ARM and TIA - ARM driven or assisted Atari game, subcategory could indicate DPC+ bB or if the gameloop is also running on the ARM.

 

Retro feel - written to run on any platform using any VM but must feel like an Atari game; these were Nolan Bushnell's rules for the Atari Pong Challenge contest in 2012; I was the only programmer to write code for the VCS, but the contest was tremendous fun and it was plain to see they were all Atari games in spirit.

 

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 First post, so quick background before chiming in. I'm not a programmer and don't know much about the technical specs of games, but enjoy the heck out of playing them. Bought an old Atari 2 years ago to share my great Atari memories I had with my 5 and 3 year old at the time and then found this homebrew community.

 

On 1/11/2020 at 3:48 PM, SpiceWare said:

 

There's nothing preventing a programmer from doing whatever they want - case in point, one of the coolest 2600 homebrews of 2019 is a 1K game that doesn't even use RAM. Your fear-mongering is the problem in my opinion, it's literally making me not want to write new games for the 2600.

 

 

Please don't stop! My 7 year old's favorite game is Space Rocks, and my 5 year old and I haven't been able to stop playing Draconian since getting it this Christmas (my current favorite). Playing four player Medieval Mayhem as a family is a blast. I look forward to any future projects you decide to challenge yourself with and push the 2600 beyond what is thought possible.

On 1/5/2020 at 10:06 PM, AW127 said:

 

On 1/6/2020 at 2:20 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said:

We had this discussion already. Personally I am more with AW127, especially after reading many, many comments here on AA. And from the (IMO) minority, who even recognizes the difference, only a very few (mostly developers) can really understand the differences and which major impact (IMO this is almost like two different platforms) this has on the games

 

This is frustrating for many developers who try to stick close to the original specs, following self-imposed limitations and try to create something which was realistically possible back then. Some have already given up developing for the 2600 due to this (public or silently). And being part of an already very small group, that's my biggest concern.

AW127 & Thomas Jentzsch The first homebrew I purchased was PAC MAN 4k. Before purchasing I wanted to know what 4k stood for. After reading a little it made me want to purchase a copy more as I like to imagine I could have been playing this version in 1982 as opposed to the one included in my 1982 Atari for Christmas (understanding for other reasons it probably wasn't possible in 1982). I think the 4k label was great marketing. Maybe instead of labeling other games you could label your's as a point of pride? Like 1977 standards (2k) or 1980 standards (4k), or some other label for whatever constraints the game was developed under. My kids can play XBOX, but they still think the game play of Adventure and Combat is pretty fun.

 

I want to thank all the developers for their passion for the system and creating fun games.

 

I currently own and have played: PacMan4k, Medieval Mayhem, Space Rocks, Chetiry, Fall Down, Gun Fight, Draconian

I newly own and haven't played yet: Juno First, Mappy, Evil Magician II, Wizard of War, Galagon, Missle Command (Trak Ball), Colony 7(Trak Ball)

 

 

 

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On 1/8/2020 at 8:02 PM, johnnywc said:

Sounds good Steve!  :thumbsup:  I've always dreamed of a better baseball game for the 2600.  Pete Rose Baseball is pretty good IMO as is M-Network baseball, but I was super disappointed with RS and Super Baseball. :(  Homerun I'll always have a soft spot for, mostly because I got it with my Atari back in 78 and played the heck out of it.  Being a Red Sox fan, I always pretended the red team were the Red Sox and the blue team were the damn Yankees... ;)  

 

I'd love a game that looks and plays more like 5200 version (my favorite baseball game for classic consoles; Earl Weaver BB takes the cake for the PC though!), maybe even with voice! :music: 

I second this, I want to see a Champ Sports baseball version bad! My friend had a Commodore 64 game called Street Sports Baseball where you got to pick kids with different play characteristics  and looks to build a team and play on different sandlot style fields. Was kind of recreated by Backyard Sports and the famed character Pablo Sanchez. Is this possible? Sandlot style (Tree houses, trash can lid bases, wiffle ball style pitches)? I'd say impossible, but you guys seem to specialize in the impossible. If so, just take my money now haha.

 

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2 hours ago, intergalactic419 said:

AW127 & Thomas Jentzsch The first homebrew I purchased was PAC MAN 4k. Before purchasing I wanted to know what 4k stood for. After reading a little it made me want to purchase a copy more as I like to imagine I could have been playing this version in 1982 as opposed to the one included in my 1982 Atari for Christmas (understanding for other reasons it probably wasn't possible in 1982). I think the 4k label was great marketing. Maybe instead of labeling other games you could label your's as a point of pride? Like 1977 standards (2k) or 1980 standards (4k), or some other label for whatever constraints the game was developed under. My kids can play XBOX, but they still think the game play of Adventure and Combat is pretty fun.

 

 

 

When i read especially this sentence from you

 

"Maybe instead of labeling other games you could label your's as a point of pride?"

 

i can see, that you are not a real retro-gamer. Not a user, which likes retro-systems because of what they really are. Because if you would do, you would know, that various retro-systems are defined mostly by their technical possibilities and also by their technical limits. Especially the limits are, what makes a retro-system special. The technic at the time and the possibilities with this technic and how programmers deal with these things, when they make games or demos. This is what makes Atari-2600 the Atari-2600, the C64 the C64, the Atari-ST the Atari-ST and the Amiga-500 the Amiga-500 and so on. Maybe a few games had special-chips back in the days, but then also chips with the possible technic at that time.

 

This has nothing do to with the thing, when for example there is a "16kb Demo competition" on the C64, which allows the programmers to only use 16kb, instead of the whole 64kb. Of course there can also be good 16kb Demos on the C64 and of course there can also be good 4k games on the Atari-2600, even when games can also be bigger on this system. But they all move within the borders of the normal technical limits of the system and ARM games didn't do this.

 

Of course i don't say, that i don't want to see ARM games anymore in the future. It's okay and also fun to see those games and what they can do technically. Fun to see that then a Atari-2600 game can be technically better than a Atari-7800 game. I only would find it good and fair, when users which are not so deep into this console, then at least can clearly and easy see, that such games uses the ARM and that other games, which don't look so superb, didn't look plainer or simpler, because their programmers don't push their game to the limit with their code, but because of the reason, that they don't have help of the ARM. That's all.

 

I don't voted for such an easy-to-see logo, because of devaluation of these ARM games, i only suggested it, that not sentences from newbies come like:

 

- why nobody has done this earlier?

- looks so much better then other shooters on the system

- if somebody would have done this back in the 80's, it would have been unbelievable

- compared to ... this looks so much better

 

But okay, i will finish speaking about this point now, i think it's maybe also not the right thread to do so. First, because i don't want to break the anticipation of the people for this great game here, cause i wait for this game by myself. And second, because i have the feeling, that some people want's to twist my words or don't want to understand, what i mean when i say that there is a danger inside, when mostly ARM-games are named "for best games of the year" in 2019 on the Atari-2600.

 

But, no matter. This will be a great game here anyway and i am also looking forward to play it. I never said, that i think different in this point.   :)

 

 

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19 minutes ago, AW127 said:

 

, what i mean when i say that there is a danger inside, when mostly ARM-games are named "for best games of the year" in 2019 on the Atari-2600.

"Game of the Year" competitions and the like take in multiple factors beyond fun factor and playability, such as graphics, sales or popularity, etc.

 

Like on modern consoles not only big budget games get sales and accolades, doesn't mean that small budget indie games cannot be equally fun.

 

So for instance comparing 32kb arm releases to 6502 4k rom only releases. One sets up a display engine which takes a "let's stuff as many things as possible onscreen at once approach." The ARM processor handles all the logic and generates code via a display kernel that tosses all the garbage onscreen every frame.

 

The assembly approach just takes what the hardware allows and manipulates the objects in code.

 

The Batari Basic approach just lets people write high level code and compile it to asm using built in kernels.

 

All methods are capable of producing fun games. Seems original game concepts developed from scratch apply better within the hardware constraints and arcade ports deemed impossible back in the day fair better with arm code.

 

So can the hardware purists and the hardware exploiters just get along and make whatever games they want, while the gamers and collectors pick some stuff from pile 1 and pile 2 based on their own merits and not the underlying technology or favorite developer.

 

A turd game is a turd game. A gem is a gem. So go nuts. Feel free to slap a cray II supercomputer on an fpga, cram it in a cart, and use it to play frogger or something on the atari.

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7 minutes ago, Kosmic Stardust said:

"Game of the Year" competitions and the like take in multiple factors beyond fun factor and playability, such as graphics, sales or popularity, etc.

 

Like on modern consoles not only big budget games get sales and accolades, doesn't mean that small budget indie games cannot be equally fun.

 

So for instance comparing 32kb arm releases to 6502 4k rom only releases. One sets up a display engine which takes a "let's stuff as many things as possible onscreen at once approach." The ARM processor handles all the logic and generates code via a display kernel that tosses all the garbage onscreen every frame.

 

The assembly approach just takes what the hardware allows and manipulates the objects in code.

 

The Batari Basic approach just lets people write high level code and compile it to asm using built in kernels.

 

All methods are capable of producing fun games. Seems original game concepts developed from scratch apply better within the hardware constraints and arcade ports deemed impossible back in the day fair better with arm code.

 

So can the hardware purists and the hardware exploiters just get along and make whatever games they want, while the gamers and collectors pick some stuff from pile 1 and pile 2 based on their own merits and not the underlying technology or favorite developer.

 

A turd game is a turd game. A gem is a gem. So go nuts. Feel free to slap a cray II supercomputer on an fpga, cram it in a cart, and use it to play frogger or something on the atari.

 

Of course everybody can programm and publish what they want. And of course a good game is a good game and a bad game is a bad game, no matter if ARM-supported or not. Also it needs good programmers of course, to produce a good ARM-game.

 

But when ARM-supported games are competing against normal games in the same competition, and that's the case here, then it's like, as if a clean sportsman fights a doped sportsman in same contest and alot people even don't know, that one of the two athletes is doped. And then, the chances of the clean sportsman are much fewer to keep up in this fight.   :)   Okay, i wanted to stop with this and now i do it. 

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3 hours ago, AW127 said:

 

Of course everybody can programm and publish what they want. And of course a good game is a good game and a bad game is a bad game, no matter if ARM-supported or not. Also it needs good programmers of course, to produce a good ARM-game.

 

But when ARM-supported games are competing against normal games in the same competition, and that's the case here, then it's like, as if a clean sportsman fights a doped sportsman in same contest and alot people even don't know, that one of the two athletes is doped. And then, the chances of the clean sportsman are much fewer to keep up in this fight.   :)   Okay, i wanted to stop with this and now i do it. 

Nobody is "doping" the consoles. During a console's lifetime, various exploits are discovered to take advantage of the hardware, sometimes in ways that were unintended when the consoles were created. Atari 2600, for instance, was literally built to specs for playing Pong and Tanks. The second round of games developed exploits which continued throughout the console's lifetime. The definition of a game cart is you plug it into a stock system and it plays.

 

Absolutely no modifications to stock hardware are necessary to run the game. Overclocking the cpu or adding ram,  sprite registers etc in the console that did not exist prior are examples of steroids or doping. Because a game developed on said modified system will fail on stock hardware, it is not a 2600 game.

 

Full stop. You can cram literally anything into a game cart and it is still a legit game if it runs on a stock system. I have no idea why you consider melody carts to be not true games because they don't use period technology. Pitfall II DCP used technology that was nonexistent in 1977. Ditto for super ram, bankswapping, and every other exploit applied to games released later on the system.

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The key difference (at least for me) is that today's hardware was not possible back then. It would not have been affordable (most important) and wouldn't have fit into a cart, both by several magnitudes. Neither 1977 nor 1987. 20, 30 years in IT are HUGE. All other examples you listed used technology which was reasonably available back then. Apples and oranges.

 

Whether you can call that console doping or not makes no difference. IMHO. The 2600 only happens to have a cartridge port.

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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Discussions about 'purity' aside, I think it is undeniable that the recent hardware assisted tech is keeping the VCS alive and relevant.  New titles of ANY type are a good thing.  We are lucky to have some great developers with a renewed interest in the system, putting out fantastic games and giving the 2600 at least a bit of modern exposure via game conventions, YouTube, etc.

 

If we want any chance of keeping the legacy alive via younger folks (for me it's my kids), then it makes sense to embrace continued advances, just as new techniques and enhancements were embraced in the past.  Otherwise, we'll all end up with Combat carts clutched in our dead hands while our old junk is tossed in the bin.

 

 

Edited by Jstick
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8 hours ago, Kosmic Stardust said:

Full stop. You can cram literally anything into a game cart and it is still a legit game if it runs on a stock system.

Here's where I'm coming from - I've been a supporter of DPC+, to the point that I added a fair bit of code to the bB DPC+ functionality. I think John and Darrell have done amazing stuff with ARM assist, and I hope they keep on going. But your statement needs some nuance.

 

A short while back it was reported that someone "ported" Doom to the NES, when literally the port consisted of a raspberry pi running Doom coupled with an NES framebuffer. Several users here felt that was a legit "port", since it fit in the cart slot. I doubt anybody technically involved with old consoles really considers it a port, but if they do, they should also claim that ARM Linux and Unix utilities were ported to the NES. (What an amazing feat - first 8-bit console to run Linux!)

 

Do hardware assist carts run "legit games". Sure. Are they just 2600 games? I say no, they're "[insert assist hardware here] 2600 games". I'd also say the same of Sara RAM carts, DPC carts, etc.. But I'm a developer, and the nuance I have isn't shared by the majority of 2600 game players. There's no denying this does impact the reception of non-hardware assist titles, otherwise we wouldn't consistently see comments on arm assist games like "amazing. should have been released back in the day!!!". (to which both Darrell and John regularly have to explain that it wouldn't have been possible back in the day)

 

But there's no point in decrying progress, and really nothing to be done about it.

 

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9 hours ago, AW127 said:

But when ARM-supported games are competing against normal games in the same competition, and that's the case here, then it's like, as if a clean sportsman fights a doped sportsman in same contest and alot people even don't know, that one of the two athletes is doped. And then, the chances of the clean sportsman are much fewer to keep up in this fight.   :)   Okay, i wanted to stop with this and now i do it. 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing because it makes competition more challenging, but it can be frustrating to the programmers if no one realizes the difference except the programmers.

 

The demo scene may agree however; I had expected Galagon to be competing in the SillyVenture2019 Games category and was looking forward to competing using the contemporary 80's technologies John mentioned earlier in the thread, the SuperCharger and CBS RAM+. 

   

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