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The review of A-Z of Atari ST Games Volume 3 book RetroLaird is trying to delete!

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12 hours ago, KidGameR186496 said:

Sorry for the quality of the magazine scan featured in this post but this is the text Kieren Hawken plagiarized in his Blue Lightning feature on issue 152 of Retro Gamer. I also included the original text from c64.com [http://www.c64.com/gt_display_interview.php?interview=23]. This is the one act of plagiarism i alluded to in my first post of the thread.

Retro_Gamer_Issue_152_0055 - copia.jpg

Sin título.png

The special thanks mention to the author of that C64.com article (and some others) so there may have been some discussion between them. I can't read your image but if someone has asked permission to use a quote or text from another article (and done the right think by thanking them), then clearly that's not plagiarism.

 

I'll have a look at the article later when kids are asleep.

Edited by Retrobob

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He's never been one to just take things and use unattributed though... 

 

Got discussed here too

 

Screenshot_20200405_094623.jpg

f2bdbf7db82b1262bdc09dcac6f5f390.png

Edited by Welshworrier
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3 hours ago, Landstalker said:

KHVBIG.png

 

I am Sinister! Rrrrrraaaah! Run coward, I lie!

 

Heh, my 16 month old daughter saw the picture right after I just posted and giggled, so must be doing something right heh.

Edited by Mayhem
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3 hours ago, Retrobob said:

The special thanks mention to the author of that C64.com article (and some others) so there may have been some discussion between them. I can't read your image but if someone has asked permission to use a quote or text from another article (and done the right think by thanking them), then clearly that's not plagiarism.

 

I'll have a look at the article later when kids are asleep.

In the interests of remaining objective throughout this discussion :

 

 

We know Kieren conducted a group interview with various Ex-Imagitec Design people for his original article on the company for RG Magazine at the time.

 

Both K.L.H and Sharon Dunsford told myself that years ago, when I started approaching Imagitec staff on behalf on Unseen64 and GTW.

 

Blitz has also recently confirmed that and Kieren got in contact with him again, whilst looking for material for his Atari Compendium. 

 

 

So, it is entirely possible Kieren was given the same account by K.L.H as the C64 site was (she might of kept her answers on file) or asked permission to use quotes from it.

 

It does raise various flags, having come on the back of the infamous Guru Larry script Kieren wrote,that upset Darryl Still,  as it gave a one-sided account from Matthew Gosling of Caspain Software,  over Atari/Telegames and Jaguar Zero 5.

 

kieren claims he spoke to Matthew, yet the account was seemingly word for word identical to the interview with Matthew Justclaws website had posted years earlier (I covered this in the early pages of this thread).

 

 

For myself it's this aspect i find ironic.

 

Whenever anybody interviewed someone with any relation to Atari (coder,artist,musician,playtester, company M.D etc) and be it someone Kieren himself had or hadn't spoken with, Kieren would pop out and attempt to discredit it as OLD NEWS.

 

 

Yet that's exactly what Kieren himself was giving the community. 

 

The Blue Lightning RG article from Kieren March 2016

 

The C64 site interview 26 June 2012

 

 

What was the quote from Kieren Landstalker put up earlier?

 

With his RG work, Kieren proved a lot of his critics wrong.

 

No, no you really didn't,  you just highlighted what we'd been telling others for years.

 

And with the greatest of respect to the lady from Imagitec, her memory is a bit off.

 

Under games that didn't make it,she lists Blue Lightning and (Space) Hulk on Jaguar. 

 

Space Hulk was canned on Sega CD,Falcon and Jag CD but Blue Lightning, terrible as it was, made it out.

 

Under titles that were commercially released:

 

phrophecy 1:Viking Child, Sega Game Gear. 

 

Reviewed by Sega Press, but never made it out i believe.

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

 

I am Sinister! Rrrrrraaaah! Run coward, I lie!

 

Heh, my 16 month old daughter saw the picture right after I just posted and giggled, so must be doing something right heh.

Just noticed,  it's Boss-Eyed :-)) 

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3 hours ago, Retrobob said:

The special thanks mention to the author of that C64.com article (and some others) so there may have been some discussion between them. I can't read your image but if someone has asked permission to use a quote or text from another article (and done the right think by thanking them), then clearly that's not plagiarism.

 

I'll have a look at the article later when kids are asleep.

No, the special thanks mentions only Kristi Louise Herd, Fred Gill, Arthur Koch and Chuck Sommerville. The original c64.com author where Kieren took the text is not mentioned at all. I've read it many times when I was working on the Jaguar CD remake article for Wikipedia before Kierona nuked me from JSIII, where he hosted the scans of issue 152 of Blue Lightning and he did not mentioned the c64.com author whatsoever.

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42 minutes ago, KidGameR186496 said:

No, the special thanks mentions only Kristi Louise Herd, Fred Gill, Arthur Koch and Chuck Sommerville. The original c64.com author where Kieren took the text is not mentioned at all. I've read it many times when I was working on the Jaguar CD remake article for Wikipedia before Kierona nuked me from JSIII, where he hosted the scans of issue 152 of Blue Lightning and he did not mentioned the c64.com author whatsoever.

Which leaves us with 2 possibilities:

 

1.Kristi still had the C64.Com interview Q+A on file and to save time, copied her answers to them and gave them as a reply to Kierona (and same happened with Matthew Gosling and his Justclaws interview).. 

 

2.Kierona took the quotes (from both) for his projects (Guru Larry script and RG article) thinking he'd been an exceptionallly clever gentleman and nobody would notice and IF they did, he could run to RG Mods and Larry,along with social media and play his standard victim card and issue a statement about (sigh) how sad it was The Usual Suspects (as he called us) were trolling his work as we were asshats, retards,  basically jealous of his amazing career. 

 

Even if he's innocent of the charge of plagiarism on both instances, he's still failed to deliver on his promise made when he rage quit RVG forum,  to use the mountain of unused (and unseen) material he was sat on, for other projects. 

 

The RG Blue Lightning  material literally was money for old rope.

 

Maybe Matthew and Kristi could come forward and give their accounts and settle the matter once and for all?

Edited by Lost Dragon

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1 hour ago, KidGameR186496 said:

No, the special thanks mentions only Kristi Louise Herd, Fred Gill, Arthur Koch and Chuck Sommerville. The original c64.com author where Kieren took the text is not mentioned at all. I've read it many times when I was working on the Jaguar CD remake article for Wikipedia before Kierona nuked me from JSIII, where he hosted the scans of issue 152 of Blue Lightning and he did not mentioned the c64.com author whatsoever.

You're right, I misread the interviewee as the author.

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Just to be 100% clear regarding the possibility Kristi and Matthew took existing Q and A answers and gave them to Kieren :

 

'We' (Greyfox and myself) had this done to us during the earlier research days for Atari Visual History. 

 

We approached Phillip Morris of English Software for scans of box art and we interviewed him for part of a planned feature on English Software and by his own admission,  he copied and sent over the answers he had given RG magazine months before (which rendered the information useless as it was old news) and in the spirt of Kierona, wanted a FREE, signed copy of the book.

 

Phillip was ahem, declined and the feature pulled, but it DOES happen. 

 

someone on YT has recently accused this of being a smear campaign against Kieren and recent comments on here have made warning that to newcomers,  it can come across at times as he said/she said.

 

Until Matthew and Kristi come forward, the plagiarism issue remains open. 

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2 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Which leaves us with 2 possibilities:

 

1.Kristi still had the C64.Com interview Q+A on file and to save time, copied her answers to them and gave them as a reply to Kierona (and same happened with Matthew Gosling and his Justclaws interview).. 

 

2.Kierona took the quotes (from both) for his projects (Guru Larry script and RG article) thinking he'd been an exceptionallly clever gentleman and nobody would notice and IF they did, he could run to RG Mods and Larry,along with social media and play his standard victim card and issue a statement about (sigh) how sad it was The Usual Suspects (as he called us) were trolling his work as we were asshats, retards,  basically jealous of his amazing career. 

 

Even if he's innocent of the charge of plagiarism on both instances, he's still failed to deliver on his promise made when he rage quit RVG forum,  to use the mountain of unused (and unseen) material he was sat on, for other projects. 

 

The RG Blue Lightning  material literally was money for old rope.

 

Maybe Matthew and Kristi could come forward and give their accounts and settle the matter once and for all?

Correction: The justclaws.org interview was actually taken from Jaguar Explorer Online (previously known as Atari Explorer Online)'s #1 issue of their first volume (dated March 27, 1997). The interview was conducted by Wes Powell, though i'll leave the Justclaws link for reference (https://web.archive.org/web/20110108131448/http://justclaws.atari.org/jagudome/zero-view.html) + scans that proves Kierona Hawkerus DID NOT credit Wes Powell for the text he wrote for JEO, only Ed Salvo, Terry Grantham, Pete Mortimer and Matthew Gosling are mentioned in the special thanks section. BTW and i'm sorry to all Lynx fans but that conversion (which Kieren claims to be excellent) of Super Off Road is GODAWFUL and an absolute disgrace to one of my favorite top-down racers. You had one fucking job Telegames!

JEOv1i1.png

Retro_Gamer_Issue_130_0071.jpg

Retro_Gamer_Issue_130_0072.jpg

Retro_Gamer_Issue_130_0073.jpg

Edited by KidGameR186496
Edited for clarity's sake
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Appreciate the original origins of the interview.

 

I saw it via the Justclaws website as it was linked to that on a years old thread on here and when the balloon went up after Guru Larry video went live and Kieren was forced to admit he hadn't approached Darryl Still for Atari UK side of the story, nor was he even aware who the boss of Caspain Software was :-)) 

 

 

I had a sly chuckle to myself over Kierona's defence being this was what Matthew Gosling had told him.

 

 

Like i say, it could be a simple case of Kierona being treated in same manner Greyfox and myself were, given same answers but in this case 2 different industry individuals,  they do tend to keep old Q and A's on file as are often asked same questions by different folks for different sites and articles as the years go on.

 

:-)) I had actually forgotten he used the Matthew Quote in his RG article as well as his Guru Larry script.

 

That Telegames article scan brought back some memories :-)) 

 

 

Kierona mentions Telegames sat on several unreleased Jaguar titles until a hurricane destroyed a building,  references the lost games again, but fails to detail which games they were.

 

Yep, that RG work really proved we critics wrong Kierona. 

 

 

But anywho, until either party comes forward, it's got to remain open, but under high suspicion given Kierona's proven track record of lifting material and classing it as his.

 

The triva in his Return To Genesis ST review in his Jaguar A to Z guide (Volume 1) was lifted straight from The Games Machine review of the time (May 1988)

Edited by Lost Dragon

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18 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

Hmmm.

2020-04-06_7-36-25.png

2020-04-06_7-37-12.png

As the sun sets on one sock puppet account, the moon rises on a near identical one. How many more are there?!

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Ok, Kieren obviously spends a lot of time patrolling the internet and it's many avenues, regardless of his protestations to the contrary.

That is not a gauntlet being flung, let's just assume he spends as much time as we do watching some or all of the same sites.

He takes great exception when people point out grammatical errors or spelling mistakes in any of his published works. Again, merely an observation/assumption. Bear with me here.
This is their prerogative, they have paid out good, hard cash for a product they thought would reflect their interests and upon perusal have, for a some very valid reasons felt disappointed.

Reviews good or bad should benefit the author.
No author is above reproach, taste is a personal thing we know, but obvious and irrefutable errors in grammar, spelling or even facts are unacceptable. When these errors are staring you in the face they cannot be denied or brushed aside with excuses blame-shifting or accusations of unfair commenting.
Taking criticism on the chin and learning from it is something all authors should be capable of doing. The acceptance of criticism is a growth process.

Anyway...
He regularly informs any/all parts of the internet of his professional status as a journalist and author. Simple fact.

As such, it is obviously his intention to... 
1: Impart his knowledge on a given topic in a clear, concise, informative and entertaining manner.
2: To succeed in the above and garner positive feedback and subsequent sales on future products from the same customer or from others due to enthusiastic word of mouth.
3: To be financially rewarded for a job well done.

All too apparently, Kieren feels that he already is a master of point one, despite others feeling otherwise.
This is the point of contention. Merely an observation, not an attack. This is the main stumbling block in the entire situation.
But ignoring this for a moment, let's just continue this train of thought just on the off-chance we are being monitored.

If, as mentioned above, Kieren's aim is to earn a living from the written word; then putting knee-jerk reactions to one side and sitting calmly regardless of what others may say about his work, would it not be better to then spend his time attending to any errors that may be appearing on a regular basis and improve said product?
If errors in spelling are undeniably apparent, then surely it would be wiser to proof read every title multiple times, perhaps even hiring a second, impartial proof reader?
This way grammatical mistakes and spelling inconsistencies could be avoided, nullifying any areas where those Kieren perceives as hostile to his endeavours could easily pull him up as being unprofessional.

Ensuring all research is done thoroughly, and avoiding any potential for others to make accusations of plagiarism could only be a step in the right direction.

Taking time on each title to tick off all the above boxes, rather than releasing multiple products over an inordinately short period of time, would raise the authors profile and prevent claims of titles being rushed to publication with little or no attention to content or detail.

Therefore, would it not be better if Kieren took the above to heart, set himself apart from those he feels are working toward his downfall and applied himself to create one essential title on each of his chosen topics?
A truly quality release, a definitive volume that people would be proud to own and which would A. silence his detractors, B. prove his journalistic claims and abilities without fear of contradiction C. provide a valued title that can be held as an example to others in its content and quality and finally D. through the subsequent success of said title and potential sequels earn a living.

Would his time not be better spent doing all of the above rather than monitoring the outbursts of his critics?
The knock-on effect would be that all of us could then go our separate ways and hostilities would potentially cease, with no feeling for the need to snipe at others from the safety of our desks for no good reason whatsoever. 

Just a thought.
I hope it was apparent that there are no slurs, sarcastic asides or hidden barbs in any of the above.

 

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Again, you need to realize he is not a normal person and you are wasting your time.

 

Even if he did hire someone to do all that for him, can you imagine the first time they point out a problem?  Jesus, who'd want that job?

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For those wondering which video is Ross referencing in regards to Zero 5, then it's this one. One of the videos Kierona Hawkerus wrote the script for Larry Bundy Jr.'s Fact Hunt videos, where the very same text he took from JEO to RG was used... It's on the 3:39 mark by the way...

 

Edited by KidGameR186496
Removed a typo
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49 minutes ago, Landstalker said:

Ok, Kieren obviously spends a lot of time patrolling the internet and it's many avenues, regardless of his protestations to the contrary.

That is not a gauntlet being flung, let's just assume he spends as much time as we do watching some or all of the same sites.

He takes great exception when people point out grammatical errors or spelling mistakes in any of his published works. Again, merely an observation/assumption. Bear with me here.
This is their prerogative, they have paid out good, hard cash for a product they thought would reflect their interests and upon perusal have, for a some very valid reasons felt disappointed.

Reviews good or bad should benefit the author.
No author is above reproach, taste is a personal thing we know, but obvious and irrefutable errors in grammar, spelling or even facts are unacceptable. When these errors are staring you in the face they cannot be denied or brushed aside with excuses blame-shifting or accusations of unfair commenting.
Taking criticism on the chin and learning from it is something all authors should be capable of doing. The acceptance of criticism is a growth process.

Anyway...
He regularly informs any/all parts of the internet of his professional status as a journalist and author. Simple fact.

As such, it is obviously his intention to... 
1: Impart his knowledge on a given topic in a clear, concise, informative and entertaining manner.
2: To succeed in the above and garner positive feedback and subsequent sales on future products from the same customer or from others due to enthusiastic word of mouth.
3: To be financially rewarded for a job well done.

All too apparently, Kieren feels that he already is a master of point one, despite others feeling otherwise.
This is the point of contention. Merely an observation, not an attack. This is the main stumbling block in the entire situation.
But ignoring this for a moment, let's just continue this train of thought just on the off-chance we are being monitored.

If, as mentioned above, Kieren's aim is to earn a living from the written word; then putting knee-jerk reactions to one side and sitting calmly regardless of what others may say about his work, would it not be better to then spend his time attending to any errors that may be appearing on a regular basis and improve said product?
If errors in spelling are undeniably apparent, then surely it would be wiser to proof read every title multiple times, perhaps even hiring a second, impartial proof reader?
This way grammatical mistakes and spelling inconsistencies could be avoided, nullifying any areas where those Kieren perceives as hostile to his endeavours could easily pull him up as being unprofessional.

Ensuring all research is done thoroughly, and avoiding any potential for others to make accusations of plagiarism could only be a step in the right direction.

Taking time on each title to tick off all the above boxes, rather than releasing multiple products over an inordinately short period of time, would raise the authors profile and prevent claims of titles being rushed to publication with little or no attention to content or detail.

Therefore, would it not be better if Kieren took the above to heart, set himself apart from those he feels are working toward his downfall and applied himself to create one essential title on each of his chosen topics?
A truly quality release, a definitive volume that people would be proud to own and which would A. silence his detractors, B. prove his journalistic claims and abilities without fear of contradiction C. provide a valued title that can be held as an example to others in its content and quality and finally D. through the subsequent success of said title and potential sequels earn a living.

Would his time not be better spent doing all of the above rather than monitoring the outbursts of his critics?
The knock-on effect would be that all of us could then go our separate ways and hostilities would potentially cease, with no feeling for the need to snipe at others from the safety of our desks for no good reason whatsoever. 

Just a thought.
I hope it was apparent that there are no slurs, sarcastic asides or hidden barbs in any of the above.

 

As someone who makes his living from the written word and you tube you would have thought that when all this kicked off he would have been making a video to clear his name and providing evidence to support it along with legally pursuing those responsible. Buy he hasn't done any of this. All he has done is provide 15 pages of pure bollocks.

 

Now I was always taught to have pride in your work and whatever you do, you make sure it is the very best that you can do.

I used to have to write instruction manuals as part of my job and I never put anything out until I was 100% happy with it. If you create it then you should be proud of it  

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2 hours ago, Deathray Specs said:

As the sun sets on one sock puppet account, the moon rises on a near identical one. How many more are there?!

Christ on a bike. It's so obvious at this point, the style is identical. He needs help.

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58 minutes ago, Retrobob said:

He's just admitted that he's behind this sock account...

 

cGAcvMt.png

That account also posted this reply on another thread and then quickly deleted it before I could reply 

79BEE0CB-6BD3-4FE5-8B27-74C935CB4C41.jpeg

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Technically he is correct of course... He's not KEIRAN Hawken, he's KIEREN Hawken.

 

Hoho, how hilarious.

Edited by Welshworrier
Spooling mistook
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44 minutes ago, Deathray Specs said:

That account also posted this reply on another thread and then quickly deleted it before I could reply 

79BEE0CB-6BD3-4FE5-8B27-74C935CB4C41.jpeg

I before E except after C

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1 hour ago, PlanB said:

I before E except after C

Neither rottweilers or weird atheists would agree. Sorry for seizing on that.

 

(the only rule that has more exceptions than compliers)

Edited by Welshworrier
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