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Independent Amico Discussion Thread

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Mobile gaming dwarfs console gaming when it comes to gross revenue, and there is a lot of data to prove it. Depending on the sku, some consoles have been competitive with mobile in what is called ARPPU, or Average Revenue per Paying User. This is a measure of "if someone gives us money, how much money to do they give us?" and is a separate metric than the total number of concurrencies or overall revenue. The revolution that jetted mobile to the top is partly fueled by business data showing ARPPU on mobile is often much much higher than a traditional video game. Which is why we live in an era of post-sale DLC, season passes, loot boxes, etc. 

That said, one of the highest ARPPU's I've ever seen was for the Playstation Vita, and I think that model could well be what the Amico sees. A small but very dedicated community willing to spend real money on games. It is why, despite the Internet's belief that the Vita was a failure, a whole bunch of indie game devs released their games on it, and some even reported significantly higher sales than on Steam. It may have been a failure in terms of raw number console wars, but Playstation laughed all the way to the bank on it. 

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13 minutes ago, bojay1997 said:

The purpose was to add to the independent discussion.  The point is, we keep getting data which is being presented in a manner which favors one particular conclusion.  My argument was simply that even sophisticated investors and firms get this same kind of data on every product and market they invest in and yet they still lose money on most of their investments.  Stores order inventory that tanks constantly which is why you see clearance sales and entire chains like Five Below and Big Lots.  I hope that the product launches and that it is successful.  I do, however, suspect that by going after an untapped market, the risk goes up considerably and it means that the lifespan of software support for the console could be short, especially with everything essentially being funded by the company.  

I think you're fundamentally mistaken in your initial determination. Most of us just want the thing to do well, and we find ways to back up why we think it'll do well. Tommy is the CEO - so of course he's going to be biased in the positive direction. I really hope you aren't faulting him for that.

 

Firstly, stores like Five Below and Big Lots don't exist due to failed anything. They exist because TOO much is produced and too much waste is created. They are secondary stores where product that isn't bad can be sold for a smaller profit margin. They're one of the final parts of the merchandise chain. Big box store orders, and orders, and orders... Merchandise flows in and out, much of it flows to secondary locations, as big box stores keep ordering and ordering. This used to be a fairly uniquely American thing but we're seeing it worldwide now. Overproduction.

 

Secondly, if Tommy succeeds in selling 500,000 units, or 1 million units, or 5 million units, in any time span (with a lot of software sold), it's a massive success in the current video game ecosystem. Whether it's enough to remain profitable or becomes lucrative enough to keep going is up in the air - but doing anything at all that's different than the Big 3 or just Stadia/Amazon Game Streaming needs our support. Even if it's not perfect. We need to be the ground force of "hardcore" gamers that support new things. The beauty of it is, you can take the wait and see approach - this isn't a crowdfunded Ouya scam. You don't have to buy in.

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1 minute ago, 1001lives said:

I think you're fundamentally mistaken in your initial determination.

 

Firstly, stores like Five Below and Big Lots don't exist due to failed anything. They exist because TOO much is produced and too much waste is created. They are secondary stores where product that isn't bad can be sold for a smaller profit margin. They're one of the final parts of the merchandise chain. Big box store orders, and orders, and orders... Merchandise flows in and out, much of it flows to secondary locations, as big box stores keep ordering and ordering. This used to be a fairly uniquely American thing but we're seeing it worldwide now. Overproduction.

 

Secondly, if Tommy succeeds in selling 500,000 units, or 1 million units, or 5 million units, in any time span (with a lot of software sold), it's a massive success in the current video game ecosystem. Whether it's enough to remain profitable or becomes lucrative enough to keep going is up in the air - but doing anything at all that's different than the Big 3 or just Stadia/Amazon Game Streaming needs our support. Even if it's not perfect. We need to be the ground force of "hardcore" gamers that support new things. The beauty of it is, you can take the wait and see approach - this isn't a crowdfunded Ouya scam. You don't have to buy in.

Well, I actually shop Five Below and Big Lots and they are stuffed full of failed products.  In fact, I just completed my Dropmix collection at Five Below.  I personally don't think hardcore gamers need to do anything.  Each of us needs to make decisions about how to spend our own money in a way that makes sense for us and makes us happy.  I personally buy every new console and handheld that comes out including Ouya (which wasn't a scam in any way, just a badly launched and managed product), Stadia and everything else.  I even have a preorder for the Evercade and all the games.  I will also buy the Amico when it hits stores or if preorders open on retail websites, I will happily preorder one.  It doesn't mean everyone else should do the same thing.      

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8 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Mobile gaming dwarfs console gaming when it comes to gross revenue, and there is a lot of data to prove it. Depending on the sku, some consoles have been competitive with mobile in what is called ARPPU, or Average Revenue per Paying User. This is a measure of "if someone gives us money, how much money to do they give us?" and is a separate metric than the total number of concurrencies or overall revenue. The revolution that jetted mobile to the top is partly fueled by business data showing ARPPU on mobile is often much much higher than a traditional video game. Which is why we live in an era of post-sale DLC, season passes, loot boxes, etc. 

That said, one of the highest ARPPU's I've ever seen was for the Playstation Vita, and I think that model could well be what the Amico sees. A small but very dedicated community willing to spend real money on games. It is why, despite the Internet's belief that the Vita was a failure, a whole bunch of indie game devs released their games on it, and some even reported significantly higher sales than on Steam. I may have been a failure in terms of raw number console wars, but Playstation laughed all the way to the bank on it. 

I agree with you.  That's why I think the whole untapped market thing is a potential problem.  I think there are plenty of classic and family gamers who will be interested in Amico.  I do worry that by trying to do a mass market launch right away into an unproven market, the whole project could collapse.  Intellivision is not Sony that can afford to dump hundreds of millions of dollars into something that may not ever be profitable.  

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1 hour ago, ColecoJoe said:

You're trying to sell something. It's your responsibility to provide the information not mine :)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, bojay1997 said:

Well, I actually shop Five Below and Big Lots and they are stuffed full of failed products.  In fact, I just completed my Dropmix collection at Five Below.  I personally don't think hardcore gamers need to do anything.  Each of us needs to make decisions about how to spend our own money in a way that makes sense for us and makes us happy.  I personally buy every new console and handheld that comes out including Ouya (which wasn't a scam in any way, just a badly launched and managed product), Stadia and everything else.  I even have a preorder for the Evercade and all the games.  I will also buy the Amico when it hits stores or if preorders open on retail websites, I will happily preorder one.  It doesn't mean everyone else should do the same thing.      

Dropmix was not an outright failure. It did quite well and won a lot of awards. A lot of unsold merchandise or new old stock made it's way into places like Amazon marketplace and Five Below. 

 

That's not the way I look at things - but I respect your view. As a hardcore gamer, I view the responsibility to support (valid) new play styles and potential new gameplay experiences as very important, because I am terrified mobile gaming is going to take over everything, littered with loot boxes and micro transactions. I don't want the world to think gaming is a phone and a PC. Xbox has already given up and is just making a PC (or pretty damn close).

 

I will have to disagree with you though, Ouya was pretty much a scam. It wasn't even what it was initially represented to be. On top of that, it was mismanaged, full of unfulfilled promises or flat out lies, and ran by a lady who had no interest in video games or seeing Ouya succeed long term. She abandoned ship as soon as she could and lied until the end.

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4 minutes ago, 1001lives said:

Dropmix was not an outright failure. It did quite well and won a lot of awards. A lot of unsold merchandise or new old stock made it's way into places like Amazon marketplace and Five Below. 

 

That's not the way I look at things - but I respect your view. As a hardcore gamer, I view the responsibility to support (valid) new play styles and potential new gameplay experiences as very important, because I am terrified mobile gaming is going to take over everything, littered with loot boxes and micro transactions. I don't want the world to think gaming is a phone and a PC. Xbox has already given up and is just making a PC (or pretty damn close).

 

I will have to disagree with you though, Ouya was pretty much a scam. It wasn't even what it was initially represented to be. On top of that, it was mismanaged, full of unfulfilled promises or flat out lies, and ran by a lady who had no interest in video games or seeing Ouya succeed long term. She abandoned ship as soon as she could and lied until the end.

Dropmix was a failure in that less than a year after launch, it disappeared from retail and could be purchased for as little as $30 for the main game which launched at $100.  I personally love it and was happy to find a few packs that I was unable to find elsewhere at Five Below.  Awards and critical acclaim and individual owner love are great, but ultimately, there are no more updates or packs coming just over two years since launch and Hasbro is no longer supporting it.

 

I appreciate your view on your responsibility as a gamer.  I don't fully share it, although I do feel very strongly about physical games, so I am eager to see what Tommy has planned and I would hope that every Amico release is physical and complete (i.e. no updates or downloads required) on whatever format they are released on physically.   

 

I backed Ouya and I didn't feel scammed.  I even bought the later upgraded model.  It did what it was promised to do and there were games, even if most of them were not exclusive or didn't work particularly well on the controller.  Now the Gamestick on the other hand I backed and that thing was straight up broken at launch and never really worked properly.  

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Will this discussion is a vicious circle  with the same discussions  over and over(both for positives and for negatives with the negatives being the same few not meant to insult but just stating a fact), It's not even really a debate anymore. It's just the same information that has become verbal  diarrhea. We have heard everything for and against. Really what is being accomplished here. Maybe it would be a good thing if everyone just agree to disagree and move on to something more positive . Plus when need more positives in our lives not bickering negatives back and forth.  Is this back and forth discussion with the same points. Is this going to gone on until next year when we really see if this succeeds or not. I hope note.  For me I think it will succeed but everyone has there own thoughts and at this point no one is right.   

 

Cheers  I a good time for a positive and happy tune!! Cheers

 

 

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16 hours ago, mr_me said:

 

According to Amico research, more money is spent on mobile games than games for playstation, xbox, switch combined.

Perhaps. $3 here and $2 there adds up, one bubble-pop/word-find game app at a time. But is that "money spent" per person the same as buying games for an Amico per-person? A single Xbox or Playstation premium title can be $60 or even more. That's a lot of phone games. I can believe people buying 1 Xbox or Playstation game per month at $60 (I'm sure many buy far more than 1 per month, and some buy less). But does the average person buy $60 in phone games per month (12 phone games at $5 per game) - 144 phone games per year? I have a hard time believing that. I think Xbox and Playstation owners spend far more on their games than phone gamers, per-person. Just the fact that they are willing to spend hundreds just to buy the system shows they plan to spend a good chunk on games for it. But because more people overall buy games on their phones, it totals more than the money spent on the bigger systems.

 

And phone games still require no additional hardware to play them. You already have the device in your pocket, and you're going to own that anyways, because you need a phone. I'm very glad to see Amico game pricing being so sane and reasonable, but it still requires a $200+ initial purchase to buy into the system. So people are going to consider that. Even if they spend the same amount on their phone games per year that they would spend on Amico games (I still doubt that though), they don't need to buy another $200 system on top of that to play their phone games.

 

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26 minutes ago, m-crew said:

Will this discussion is a vicious circle  with the same discussions  over and over(both for positives and for negatives with the negatives being the same few not meant to insult but just stating a fact), It's not even really a debate anymore. It's just the same information that has become verbal  diarrhea. We have heard everything for and against. Really what is being accomplished here. Maybe it would be a good thing if everyone just agree to disagree and move on to something more positive . Plus when need more positives in our lives not bickering negatives back and forth.  Is this back and forth discussion with the same points. Is this going to gone on until next year when we really see if this succeeds or not. I hope note.  For me I think it will succeed but everyone has there own thoughts and at this point no one is right.   

 

Cheers  I a good time for a positive and happy tune!! Cheers

 

 

 

How about we just stick to @MrBeefy's ideals and intentions for this thread and all will be just fine and dandy.

 

bacon.gif.6780583738bc5183373c6f76a4fc8132.gif

 

On 1/27/2020 at 10:23 PM, MrBeefy said:

The idea of this thread is to have a place to discuss the new Amico console. In addition I would like to try and keep the first post to information we know about Amico amd update it as new confirmed stuff comes out. I will be honest the games will be the hardest part as I don't want just a list of licenses they can make. So the game list will be shorter than actuality. Thank you for your patience.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 10:38 PM, jaybird3rd said:

As its title indicates, this is an *independent* thread for discussing and sharing information about the Intellivision Amico and/or Intellivision Entertainment.  "Independent" means that all participants are free to express their own perspectives and their own points of view, entirely in their own words.  Whether they are positive or negative, critical or supportive, all views are welcome.  This thread is specifically for discussions among current or prospective Intellivision consumers, collectors, and fans; if you have questions intended for official representatives of Intellivision Entertainment, they should be raised through the proper channels, such as Tommy Tallarico's Q&A Thread right here on AtariAge.

 

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15 minutes ago, fiudr said:

Perhaps. $3 here and $2 there adds up, one bubble-pop/word-find game app at a time. But is that "money spent" per person the same as buying games for an Amico per-person? A single Xbox or Playstation premium title can be $60 or even more. That's a lot of phone games. I can believe people buying 1 Xbox or Playstation game per month at $60 (I'm sure many buy far more than 1 per month, and some buy less). But does the average person buy $60 in phone games per month (12 phone games at $5 per game) - 144 phone games per year? I have a hard time believing that. I think Xbox and Playstation owners spend far more on their games than phone gamers, per-person. Just the fact that they are willing to spend hundreds just to buy the system shows they plan to spend a good chunk on games for it. But because more people overall buy games on their phones, it totals more than the money spent on the bigger systems.

 

And phone games still require no additional hardware to play them. You already have the device in your pocket, and you're going to own that anyways, because you need a phone. I'm very glad to see Amico game pricing being so sane and reasonable, but it still requires a $200+ initial purchase to buy into the system. So people are going to consider that. They may spend the same amount on their phone games per year that they would spend on Amico games, but they don't need to buy another $200 system on top of that to play their phone games.

 

Do you think you young parents who bought their kids an xbox , playstation , or switch buy their kids 1 or more games a month for that  at 80 +/- . I think you have that wrong for that demographic. They get games for Christmas and Birthdays . From their parents or family as gifts. Young blue collar workers just dont make that amount of money to spend on their children. So a console with 5 pre-loaded games and games costing anywhere between 5 to 10 dollars is a great option instead of the big three. Even with the 200 dollar price tag.  I know with me that how it was for my son and his PS4.

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3 minutes ago, Spriggy said:

 

How about we just stick to @MrBeefy's ideals and intentions for this thread and all will be just fine and dandy.

 

bacon.gif.6780583738bc5183373c6f76a4fc8132.gif

 

 

 

How about you worry about cooking that bacon ... looks like your having trouble flipping it..

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2 hours ago, 1001lives said:

Dropmix was not an outright failure. It did quite well and won a lot of awards. A lot of unsold merchandise or new old stock made it's way into places like Amazon marketplace and Five Below. 

 

That's not the way I look at things - but I respect your view. As a hardcore gamer, I view the responsibility to support (valid) new play styles and potential new gameplay experiences as very important, because I am terrified mobile gaming is going to take over everything, littered with loot boxes and micro transactions. I don't want the world to think gaming is a phone and a PC. Xbox has already given up and is just making a PC (or pretty damn close).

 

I will have to disagree with you though, Ouya was pretty much a scam. It wasn't even what it was initially represented to be. On top of that, it was mismanaged, full of unfulfilled promises or flat out lies, and ran by a lady who had no interest in video games or seeing Ouya succeed long term. She abandoned ship as soon as she could and lied until the end.

Dropmix flopped bad. And that's coming from a big Dropmix fan. I bought into it big time, and even gifted a unit and a bunch of card sets. But honestly it failed miserably. Sure there was a small group of obsessed fans that bought every card set that was offered. I even followed the Reddit Dropmix community which was very friendly and helpful. But Target, Gamestop, Toys R Us - none of them could sell the systems or the cards - at any price seemingly. They sat there at $100 for over a year. Once the units started getting clearanced to $60, then $40, then $30 or less - then it finally started selling. By then Hasbro was getting ready to write it off, and Toys R Us had gone out of business and sold off their remaining stock, leaving just Target who didn't know how to get rid of them. Hasbro started season 2 cards and the fans were excited and then Hasbro cancelled the season not even half-way through and now it's just another piece of history. I saw the units sitting on final clearance in Target and they still weren't moving so great. Nobody knew how to market them, nobody knew where to put them in the stores, nobody heard of it, nobody even knew what it was. And the price was too high when it launched, for the system and for the cards. It was a very cool idea, but almost was doomed to failure from the start. Harmonix developed a neat music mixing game but Hasbro bungled it.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, m-crew said:

How about you worry about cooking that bacon ... looks like your having trouble flipping it..

Thanks for that tip-less tip.  I think I got it now 👍

 

baconflip.gif.59d99f35dccc190f6df35724d9e7f5f5.gif

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3 minutes ago, Spriggy said:

Thanks for that tip-less tip.  I think I got it now 👍

 

baconflip.gif.59d99f35dccc190f6df35724d9e7f5f5.gif

I knew you had in you !! See what you can accomplish with positive encouragement.    

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Since this is bacon thread as well and theme, Ill share some alternative bacon for people with different tastes and healthier lifestyles. Just like the Amico well give parents a choice other than the big 3. 

Image result for Canadian Bacon gifs

 

 

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36 minutes ago, fiudr said:

Dropmix flopped bad. And that's coming from a big Dropmix fan. I bought into it big time, and even gifted a unit and a bunch of card sets. But honestly it failed miserably. Sure there was a small group of obsessed fans that bought every card set that was offered. I even followed the Reddit Dropmix community which was very friendly and helpful. But Target, Gamestop, Toys R Us - none of them could sell the systems or the cards - at any price seemingly. They sat there at $100 for over a year. Once the units started getting clearanced to $60, then $40, then $30 or less - then it finally started selling. By then Hasbro was getting ready to write it off, and Toys R Us had gone out of business and sold off their remaining stock, leaving just Target who didn't know how to get rid of them. Hasbro started season 2 cards and the fans were excited and then Hasbro cancelled the season not even half-way through and now it's just another piece of history. I saw the units sitting on final clearance in Target and they still weren't moving so great. Nobody knew how to market them, nobody knew where to put them in the stores, nobody heard of it, nobody even knew what it was. And the price was too high when it launched, for the system and for the cards. It was a very cool idea, but almost was doomed to failure from the start. Harmonix developed a neat music mixing game but Hasbro bungled it.

 

 

Bizarre. I’ve never heard of it before. I think bad advertising and price  were the issue for what it appeared to do, by which I mean I didn’t really get the gist of how it might work or you might compete against each other from the Amazon description or the video. For a $100 music/card game, you have to show a big wow factor for $100 or they’ll go buy Pictionary or Cheaters Monopoly for $20. 

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8 hours ago, Swami said:

And several pages about parental controls ended with the revelation that parents should communicate with their kids. If only we’d known that 20 years ago parental controls wouldn’t have been necessary. Either that or parents don’t need set them in the first place. 

I can tell you from experience in working with teens there is not enough communication amd parenting is left to other people to be the 'bad guys'. Its dumb and shouldn't be a thing or need to be a thing.

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8 hours ago, atm94404 said:

As someone pointed out, the story kind of proves the point that Nintendo used gamers (trained "Mom Gamers") to introduce the console to those non-gamers.

But I'm glad you brought up "hard data".  When people throw around conclusions to studies "like 94% of gamers are X" or better yet "93.7%" to make it sound extra science-y, I'm always on alert.  I want a link to an actual study or poll, not just a conclusion.  I also see people intermingling different numbers (like the number of total gamers in the world and those that said a controller was the barrier a console) and that further confuses matters.   When someone alludes to the conclusion of a poll or study, I want to know the specifics.  What was the sample size?  What was the sample population?  What were the exact questions asked?  How was it conducted?  Was it over the phone?  A questionnaire?  An online poll?  If it was online, what kind of website was it on?  Who would see it, could you verify unique individuals or could it be spammed, etc.   Without knowing how big a study was, how it was conducted, who conducted, etc.  you have no way of knowing if it really means what people are representing that it means.  A conclusion drawn from data is only as good as the data. 

EeYW7Yq-asset-mezzanine-16x9-5jqe2jX.jpg

And even then, the conclusions drawn from the data are still often up to debate.  I had a Middle School teacher who showed how the same data could be made to look very different.  It was a story from a newspaper about an "international racing challenge".  It said countries brought their best cars to compete in a friendly race mainly for bragging rights.  It then noted that the U.S. entry came in second to last while the car from the USSR (this was in the 80s) came in second.   The teacher then asked us who came out better?  Most of the students said the USSR car.  Then the teacher revealed it was a story from a USSR paper (Pravda, I think) and it was a two car race, so the US car came in first and the USSR came in second (last).  The story was true but misleading if you didn't know the full circumstances of the data.  Or as Mark Twain said  (although he "appropriated" it from someone else): "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

I also like how crime rates rise as do ice cream sales.

 

7 hours ago, Swami said:

And after you read all the sources for these statistics you are going to use them for what? To decide whether to buy the console or not? To try to predict better whether the console will succeed or fail because that will have some impact or other? Do you think IE will change their marketing strategy after your analysis and review of their statistics? I’m pretty sure spinning their own statistics would only hurt them. If they knew their analysis was flawed why would they use it to market their product. 

The data the data the data is thrown around and just Google it is used?

 

Data also shows that mobile gamers spend significantly less than console gamers. IE is trying to tap this market and expect them to pay around three times what they pay in a year to play their mobile games. That is for just the basic console and 5 games. You buy one new Switch, PS, or Xbox game (not console), and you've already almost spent more than average person who plays mobile.

 

Before the price creep you were looking at expecting this casual market to only double their yearly gaming expenditures.

 

This is what I meant and said that just because there are a ton of casuals doesn't mean you are going to convince them to spend more.

 

7 hours ago, ColecoJoe said:

I don't think anybody is looking at a study or poll to decide on what to buy. I think his point was when you throw statistics and data around it should be backed up with sources. 

There it is.

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9 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Thanks for having the passion to continuing talking about what we're doing.  The fact that folks are doing that (either for or against) shows that we are on to something and have your interest either way.  I appreciate the dedication and time everyone takes to discuss it.

Despite what you might think. Some of the people you have labeled as 'others' were super positive about Amico. Go look through your Q&A from the beginning. I don't think as many want you to fail as you think.

 

I do think you need to be careful of the Streisand Effect as I think there has been some of this going on. I think @kevtris was basically alluding to this when trying to tell you to let some things just go. Personally all I've seen happen from this is people who were once positive towards Amico be less so because they are haters trolls or whatever.

 

The person/people posting the videos saying you have a small willy or whatever ARE NOT going to be convinced to be otherwise, but I think you have alienated some people who were positive towards this and at least were considering it as a purchase. 

 

I might have doubts as well as others and by no means do I think you should or expect you to give up because of it. But just because people have doubts doesn't mean they want it to flop. To paint them that way is only going to discourage them from buying it.

 

🌈🐇🦄

🌮🥓

 

 

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8 hours ago, Swami said:

Maybe, if there was some actual point to it. Besides, he put up a graph showing the 93% vs 6% result that had the percentage of gamers using what type of device over the last about 20 years a while ago. 

Here let me help https://www.statista.com/statistics/246738/average-spend-on-mobile-games/

 

This data suggests the Amico expects that demographic to spend 3 times the amount. Yes there are more casuals but casuals do not spend as much. That is why I did my Atari (for illustrative purposes) post. 

 

You add more people in there will naturally be more money spent, but that does not mean individually they spend more. Those who are getting the Founders Edition have just spent close to 4 times the amount a casual gamer does in a year. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Here let me help https://www.statista.com/statistics/246738/average-spend-on-mobile-games/

 

This data suggests the Amico expects that demographic to spend 3 times the amount. Yes there are more casuals but casuals do not spend as much. That is why I did my Atari (for illustrative purposes) post. 

 

You add more people in there will naturally be more money spent, but that does not mean individually they spend more. Those who are getting the Founders Edition have just spent close to 4 times the amount a casual gamer does in a year. 

 

 

wrong graph for what i was talking about.:P

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1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

I can tell you from experience in working with teens there is not enough communication amd parenting is left to other people to be the 'bad guys'. Its dumb and shouldn't be a thing or need to be a thing.

That was my point. We shouldn't need parental controls but we do because of this.

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7 hours ago, Spriggy said:

 

1697619354_baconpreference.thumb.gif.13c77d2dabfb4282b27532753027ebe2.gif

Got to love that data...🤤

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1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

I can tell you from experience in working with teens there is not enough communication amd parenting is left to other people to be the 'bad guys'. Its dumb and shouldn't be a thing or need to be a thing.

...and then you've got the 14 year old kid who has Manhunter 2 (AO) on his Christmas list (from an article I read). I think there's probably more problems than just communication there.

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