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tripletopper

Do ahead of their time displays feel behind the times

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I'm just wondering if other people felt as I do. 

 

Like for example in Street Fighter 4, I noticed I was able to pull off dragon punches with my left hand, when before only a right-handed joystick could pull it off for me.  And also does it seem like combos were easier to execute in Street Fighter 3 and before, despite the fact they were not given to you, yet in Street Fighter 4 they give you monster combos and the only way a reasonable person can unlock them is by practicing against a dummy.  So it seems like they eased up on joystick accuracy, and in return weekend special moves, while they made button accuracy more important, compounding it by knowing lots of people play on a non crt tv, and paid it off with unblockable combos of Killer Instinct length and power,  yet KI has a breaker as a combo defense, and SF doesn't.

 

But it's not just fighters.  Before December 2012, I was playing on a component CRT and was doing pretty well in Super Meat Boy.  But as soon as I switched to a Sony PlayStation 3D TV, which was considered one of the better modern TVs at the time, I sort of lost the consistent feel to make consistent progress and I'm stuck on the last level before the final boss.

 

Now the question becomes is HDMI naturally laggy, or could you transfer an HDMI signal to a CRT monitor and have sub microsecond ping?

 

First of all, for most games,  I don't need ping that accurate.  if I need something that accurate I'll do my light gun streams downstairs and leave everything else upstairs.

 

As a test, I tried an HDMI signal both through a Hauppauge Rocket and directly, and noticed no difference.  And Hauppauge claims a maximum of one millisecond ping.

 

Yet I noticed if I hook up an analog VCR in between the game and the TV, the light gun's aim gets thrown off a few pixels to the right.

 

Finally I have a test to see whether those 1 millisecond gray-to-gray monitors can pass my quick ping test that I can only do on a CRT monitor,. and that's getting a Michael Larson like score on a flash version of Press Your Luck.  I tried it Best Buy at first I thought I failed but I found out that that app adds delay.  I got to find the earliest version, with no ping added.  So for now, TN monitors are inconclusive if they're low ping enough.  Plus I read the real delay is 10 milliseconds on most of them.

 

Based on this test it seems resolution change and TV drawing technology contribute most to delay.

 

I bought 2000 era CRT VGA monitor and I'm trying to figure out whether it's better just as an HDMI low-paying alternative, or weather lower-resolution consoles pre HDMI are better on a real CRT TV versus converting from composite component S-Video or RF to VGA.

 

Most people say if you go from HDMI to VGA CRT that the screen is squished and you have to use manual monitor controls to get it in the proper a show yet letterboxed.

 

Now the question becomes how well does a VGA CRT monitor work for classic gaming.  In the two biggest issues are ping (for the purposes of playing anything except light gun games and maybe Sega scope games), and the look of the TV image second.

 

First probably this would all be moot if the monitor does not have multiple settings so I could switch between native 4 by 3 and native 16 by 9 input to a 16 by 9 output very easily.  Keep my mind it's going directly from a classic video game output to a VGA with no computer processor in the middle as far as I could tell.  And if a processor was used,  would that add enough delay to throw off a non light gun game.(I'm okay with throwing off a light gun game.  I'll move to a more direct TV if that's the case.)

 

I've seen my old iMac do a fairly clean picture to a Sony wega when an S-Video cable is plugged into the back of my iMac.  And it beat the Monitor and I was able to play Press Your Luck and get a Larson like score.

 

But some people say taking a 480i or 240p Game source and pumping it in VGA makes very big scan lines therefore are hard to play when the black sections are bigger than the colored.

 

Also before I read about other stuff I found for cheap three of the four scart cables I need for Genesis, SNES, Saturn and Dreamcast, the only four systems that could do scart natively without a mod.

 

AndI found a SCART to 3 RCA red green blue connector.  How do I tell if the three RCA is RGB or ypbpr?  and how do I tell if the system scart cable or the scarf to 3 RCA connector is for the true European SCART or the Japanese equivalent? I heard they're physically the same but plug the wrong one in and TVs could get burnt.

 

 

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I've seen my old iMac do a fairly clean picture to a Sony wega when an S-Video cable is plugged into the back of my iMac.  And it beat the Monitor and I was able to play Press Your Luck and get a Larson like score.

How do you beat a monitor? I thought you just stare at it but hey ...

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19 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

How do you beat a monitor?

 

You don't want to know! 🤢

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I don't think there's anything inherently laggy about hdmi but I think most of the latency comes from the digital display.  LCD and other modern displays have to receive the whole picture first then process/scale the image for display.  However, lots of computers had both analog vga and digital output; and I've heard that even with the same monitor vga has less latency.  I'm assuming your imac has an lcd display rather than a crt.

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I believe (but not sure) that FreeSync and G-Sync displays can start drawing the image as the data comes in. A side-effect of their variable framerate feature.

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10 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

How do you beat a monitor? I thought you just stare at it but hey ...

It beat the non-CRT, modern monitor that was simulcasting it.

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Okay. So I'm right that the display tech causes the vast majority of delay.

 

Now the big question.  How does RF, Composite, S-Video, Component, and SCART based retro consoles look and play on a VGA monitor?

 

For the scanlines, is there too much black in between the color lines, like 3/4 the picture was black?

 

As for delay, does the VGA monitor pass the "plays just like the old days" feel test?  I understand converters can delay the picture, but it's so insignificant, that the only way you notice is by playing light gun games and noticing your aim is off?

 

I have a separate setup for light gun games.

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A crt VGA monitor should be analog so there should be no latency except for the conversion.

 

There's lots of different quality CRT vga monitors out there.  Different dot pitch for finer details and different phosphor persistence for high refresh rate.  I could see a low persistence monitor flickering with a low refresh video signal.  And a very high resolution monitor showing scanlines.  Typically scanlines are hard to see at normal distance.  Also keep in mind that a 240p picture is line doubled for vga so you lose the scan lines at vga resolution.

Edited by mr_me

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On 2/1/2020 at 7:05 PM, mr_me said:

A crt VGA monitor should be analog so there should be no latency except for the conversion.

 

There's lots of different quality CRT vga monitors out there.  Different dot pitch for finer details and different phosphor persistence for high refresh rate.  I could see a low persistence monitor flickering with a low refresh video signal.  And a very high resolution monitor showing scanlines.  Typically scanlines are hard to see at normal distance.  Also keep in mind that a 240p picture is line doubled for vga so you lose the scan lines at vga resolution.

I understand you need an active adapter for 240p/480i to VGA , and if a VCR adds enough lag to throw off a light gun game, then light gun accuracy is too much to expect.  (That's why I have a separate light gun TV.)

 

But is the lag typically 1 ms or less, kind of like the Hauppauge Rocket delay times when recording?  And 1ms should be beating the LCDs built in 8 ms draw time, and should not throw off games meant for CRTs other than gun games, right?

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:16 PM, tripletopper said:

AndI found a SCART to 3 RCA red green blue connector.  How do I tell if the three RCA is RGB or ypbpr?

Do you have a picture or two? Is that a cable or an adaptor? I believe for RGB you would want composite sync too, so four RCA connectors. The odds are that you found an adaptor for composite video (yellow) + stereo sound (red + white) which sometimes can be switched between input or output. For that matter SCART only carries RGB, not component video YPbPr.

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3 hours ago, carlsson said:

Do you have a picture or two? Is that a cable or an adaptor? I believe for RGB you would want composite sync too, so four RCA connectors. The odds are that you found an adaptor for composite video (yellow) + stereo sound (red + white) which sometimes can be switched between input or output. For that matter SCART only carries RGB, not component video YPbPr.

I was hoping I got a SCART to 3 RCA YPbPr adapter.

 

This is what I bought.

 

(How do you get a recent screenshot sent?  I'd like to share my screenshot to show you, but somehow, Android won'f let me share my screenshot of an eBay item.  Help)

 

 

 

 

 

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Right now, I see nothing. You could try to at least write down the item number or link to the auction.

 

I found this cable, which I'm not quite sure where it belongs or how it should be used.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1m-Home-Theatre-Scart-21pin-to-3x-Phono-RGB-RCA-YUV-Video-Cable-Lead-Adapter/272725305232

 

I also found this nice item which I never have seen before. It matches what I tried to describe above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-Adapter-Scart-male-to-4x-RCA-female-RGB-Composite/362207446534

Edited by carlsson

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Apparently. AtariAge has "use existing attachment" and "use image from zURL, but not " use picture from internal memory"

 

I'm kind of new to Android.  Can't figure out how to attach a screenshot I took.  Meanwhile I'll look up my expired auction's url.

 

Be back in 10 or less

 

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Now I got the link.  I can message the link to myself, but I can't copy to paste on here 

 

Next time I need a phone. If it's this hard to share within your phone, next time I'm going iPhone.

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Wee what do you know.  It doesn't ask me if I want it copied.  it just did.

 

I hope this is the right image..

Edited by tripletopper
Old version was too large and had personal info. I want a complete scrub

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Can't edit my post.  It posted the whole website and when I can't look it up to copy the eBay sub page without inserting my personal info.  So I would link to it, except it posts my personal info in addition to the item.

 

Stupid Android eBay app, Won't let you share your purchase without sharing personal info by copying the generic link instead of the personalized one.

 

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4 hours ago, carlsson said:

Do you have a picture or two? Is that a cable or an adaptor? I believe for RGB you would want composite sync too, so four RCA connectors. The odds are that you found an adaptor for composite video (yellow) + stereo sound (red + white) which sometimes can be switched between input or output. For that matter SCART only carries RGB, not component video YPbPr.

I would like to send you a picture, but either Atari Age or Android won't let me put a screenshot taken in memory and use it.  Atari She's only options are "use existing attachment" or "from URL". Nothing that says "from memory".

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1 hour ago, carlsson said:

Right now, I see nothing. You could try to at least write down the item number or link to the auction.

 

I found this cable, which I'm not quite sure where it belongs or how it should be used.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1m-Home-Theatre-Scart-21pin-to-3x-Phono-RGB-RCA-YUV-Video-Cable-Lead-Adapter/272725305232

 

I also found this nice item which I never have seen before. It matches what I tried to describe above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-Adapter-Scart-male-to-4x-RCA-female-RGB-Composite/362207446534

The second one was it ...kind of.  The picture had a red, blue and green hole, and if you zoom in, the picture says  Y Cb and Cr.

 

The one I actually got doesn't letters. And I'm not sure if it's SCART to component, or vice versa, or even if RCAs are made for YPbPr or are RGB.

 

By the way, there is no yellow hole, not an input/output switch.

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