What systems do you not want to admit when emulation is actually better?

[derFunkenstein]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

When I introduce someone to emulation I always start them out with a fast tiny PC. Like a NUC or Shuttle XPC. Not only can you fit multiple systems in there you can do PC things, too. Since I focus on the emulation part, they're always pleasantly surprised to find it can run "deluxe" browsers like FireFox, or PC applications like Office and Photoshop and such.

 

R-Pi is a specialty thing and a game in and of itself. How far can you go on low-cost, low-power..? Things a beginner doesn't need to deal with. So away with that! No half-assed get-me-by experiences. I want you to enjoy the machines to the best of a given emulator's capabilities. Hence an i7 or i9.

(Emphasis above is mine)

 

This is definitely sound logic. For folks starting out, or who want to use the PC as a PC in addition to emulation, what you've outlined is really good advice. 

 

I've just never wanted to invest $700 in an i7 NUC system with adequate memory and a decently sized drive just for emulation. I have a fast PC already in my office. I'm on a PC for work all day; the last thing I want to do to unwind is sit at my desk on my PC. But I'm not just starting out, and my work situation is pretty danged unique being a telecommuter. 

 

WRT save states, I am all for them, even in retro games where the developer maybe didn't intend it that way. There are titles like Super Mario Bros 3 where it's criminal that the developer didn't include save games. That game takes basically all day to 100% finish. I had that time over summer break in high school. At 41 with a family and a full-time job, I no longer have that time. Nowadays I can play Super Mario All-Stars on the SNES, so there are save games, but if you don't have that, then why not use a save state-enabled emulator?

Edited February 12, 2020 by derFunkenstein

[Keatah]

"What systems do you not want to admit when emulation is actually better?"

 

Why should anyone be ashamed or have to admit anything when it comes to emulation? Is this like that coming out of the closet stigma or something?

 

I understand emulation is really hated by a lot of people because of cartridges and real hardware and authenticity. Even emulations that have been under development for decades are brushed off like pffftthhtt. BLahhdaabladda yadda yadda. But they'll come'a begg'n when it's the only game in town. When real hardware is too old and too hard to maintain. They all do.

 

[juansolo]

Indeed I'm not ashamed to admit that I've got a little desktop Picade (runs retropie) that I prefer to play PSX shoot-em-ups on. Not just because of the controls but because the emulator upscales the 3D elements and it just looks so damned good. I wish Sony had done that with the PSX emulator in the PS3, it's not like they didn't have the horsepower to do that and a lot of my PSX games are PSN store downloads The other is the Lynx on the same with the LCD filter on it. I miss my Lynx from back in the day, and these days I rarely use handhelds. On the little Picade it just looks and plays so much better than it did on my old mk1 Lynx.

 

There are others... The MiSTer has made my NeoGeo CDX redundant. I couldn't justify the sheer cost of an AES and multicart, and though I love the CDX, the MiSTer just works so damned well as a NeoGeo (using the Neo stick and pad) I can't remember the last time I powered the CDX up. The latest thing that particular tiny box of wonder has done is the Mega CD. Again, I was looking to the MegaSD, or getting an actual flakey Mega CD unit. It's just far more practical. The difference being there that I still play the Megadrive because it doesn't detract from just how awesome that thing is.

[juansolo]

3 hours ago, juansolo said:

Indeed I'm not ashamed to admit that I've got a little desktop Picade (runs retropie) that I prefer to play PSX shoot-em-ups on. Not just because of the controls but because the emulator upscales the 3D elements and it just looks so damned good. I wish Sony had done that with the PSX emulator in the PS3, it's not like they didn't have the horsepower to do that and a lot of my PSX games are PSN store downloads The other is the Lynx on the same with the LCD filter on it. I miss my Lynx from back in the day, and these days I rarely use handhelds. On the little Picade it just looks and plays so much better than it did on my old mk1 Lynx.

 

There are others... The MiSTer has made my NeoGeo CDX redundant. I couldn't justify the sheer cost of an AES and multicart, and though I love the CDX, the MiSTer just works so damned well as a NeoGeo (using the Neo stick and pad) I can't remember the last time I powered the CDX up. The latest thing that particular tiny box of wonder has done is the Mega CD. Again, I was looking to the MegaSD, or getting an actual flakey Mega CD unit. It's just far more practical. The difference being there that I still play the Megadrive because it doesn't detract from just how awesome that thing is.

Of course I mean CDZ, having a senior moment there.

[bluejay]

IMO, almost never. I hate when RF only systems start displying jumble, but my CoCo 2's RF modulator fixed itself, while XRoar is still having problems running on my computer. And also, a standard computer keyboard can almost never beat original controllers, especially if they are analog. Sure, there are those USB adapters, but why get them when you can just play on your good ol' 2600?

[TheCoolDave]

Emulation was always better in a lot cases because the original systems lacked the good video outputs to give a really good picture. Take a NES, and connect it via composite (the max it can do video wise) and play some games on a MODERN TV, then take a PI with RetroPie with a NES controller connected via HDMI. It looks FAR better, the picture is so clear... the NES is so easy to emulate, a 10-15 year old PC could emulate it with out a problem, so a PI will do more than fine... Any system prior to the NES only really had RF... so yucky pictures were common place.

 

I started doing RGB upgrades and got a Framemeister....  My NES done with a NESRGB kit with the stereo mod is pretty much pixel perfect on my 65" 4K TV.... complete game changer.. same with other systems...WOW..

[Tanooki]

Well the lazy answer would be basically any of them.  Emulators can either go dead accurate or not, but even just because of the hardware they're being played on you'll get improvements over the natural environment.

 

I don't really want to admit it especially since I finally just got one back, but the PCE Duo is a good one, or any optical console for that matter.  Why?  Speed and ease.  The Duo runs on a single speed CD if I remember correctly and while it's decent in transferring data in how they laid it out on there it takes time, same can be said for some pretty long load bars on PS1 games too.  Yet, if you use Magic Engine for PCE that uses real discs, or epsxe for PS1 you'll notice just how fast those loads just go away, also the little pauses when a new track or little chunk of data is accessed while things are going.  Also there's the other factor of saving/loading, also a lot quicker and smoother, less of a hassle more so with PS1 and their type as you don't have slow memory card access times and juggling them in and out of your system (or N64 controller.)

 

The easy route would be preference, but it's not hard to point out smoother richer audio sampling (interpolation etc), crispy clean visuals vs CRT vaseline blur, added filters for this or that, online play with friends instead of couch play, save/load states for nasty games or when your time is limited, etc.  All that can make basically any console or handheld seem a bit lesser when not emulated.

[eddhell]

it's 50/50 to me....sometimes the real hardware is better in the realm of "games with weird controllers" - things outside of regular 4-way and 8-way joysticks...(Tempest spinner, analog driving controls, flight yokes, etc...), graphics usually look and fit better on older CRT's (which they were intended for).....

 

But emulation has at least one advantage you can't usually get from anywhere except emulation (besides the save states already mentioned) - Ability to try out EXTREMELY RARE games that you can't find anymore or not willing to pay thousands for.....i'm thinking of carts like Air Raid, Red Sea Crossing, etc....where there is not enough copies in the world...also great for preserving old magnetic media (which i think was mentioned already) and trying out homebrew!

[CatPix]

One case I was thinking where emulation shine it for 3D systems.

The best example is the Dolphin emulator which allow GameCube and Wii games to be displayed in full HD - and by that, I mean that instead of the game outputting a 480p image and the emulator stretching it, the emualtor take the 3D data and textures and display them in a 1920*1080 resolution.

Basically the same thing that playing a PC game in 640*480 then putting the resolution to 1024*768 or better.

For people that own a Wii U, that's the difference between Zelda Twilight Princess on Gamecube/Wii and the Wii U HD version, and even more since Dolphin can also apply more effects. Also some games received patches for HD textures and stuff but we're going far from straight emulation.

 

 

 

[seastalker]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:28 PM, Keatah said:

"What systems do you not want to admit when emulation is actually better?"

 

Why should anyone be ashamed or have to admit anything when it comes to emulation? Is this like that coming out of the closet stigma or something?

 

Why should anyone think "ashamed" enters the picture.  I thought I was clear and again in the clarification but I suppose I failed again in communication.  I don't hate emulation, nor imply anyone should.  Think of the thread title like re-wiring your whole office and moving your desk to face the window, and then realizing you liked it better the original way before you put in all that work. If you re-cap systems and monitors and have spare parts on hand, they will likely outlive some of us so I doubt I will be begg'n for emulation, but I like emulators. 

 

Equally, for most, original hardware will give the best experience, but with assumptions. Original hardware like an Atari 2600 on a new 4k tv through RF isn't the same 'original hardware' as assuming you are playing on an old woodgrain CRT. Then there are some that just don't understand FPGA, and when done correctly, it IS the original system, but playable on a modern screen like you RGB modded the original. With the Analogue products, it was mentioned that Kevtris actually made a BETTER SNES than Nintendo did when using the DAC. When people start using acid to de-cap ICs and get to cycle accuracy, it's hard for me to hear people call FPGA "emulation." It is its own category in available options though. 

 

As Juansolo mentioned, The Mister project NeoGeo makes buying real hardware and super expensive game titles obsolete for SOME people like me. Maybe it will help drive down the prices for those that do want to collect for it. Mister is the ONLY way I play Supergrafx games for the same reason when prices can't be justified. Other great examples here are cd load times, burning CDrs, unreliable hardware, desk space, not wanting a PC in the living room... all great examples.  I mention PS1 in that I bought a modchip, installed it, learned the laser is very picky on cdr media, researched, bought Taiyo Yuden Silver Lacquer cdrs, still have trouble, and still experimenting with both arguments of best write speeds... yet my PS mini classic works like a champ.

 

Others may prefer emulation for newer features like rewind if not save states. Cheating for me doesn't matter if just playing for fun on your own and not competing. 

 

I modded the heck out of an OG XBOX due to the state of emulation not being ready yet, though it was 'after my time' and holds little to no nostalgia for me.  I may only have it because Modern Vintage Gamer did a video calling it pretty much the Dreamcast 2. I'm checking out Sega games mainly.  PS2 I may check out just for Sega Ages.

[Tanooki]

4 hours ago, CatPix said:

One case I was thinking where emulation shine it for 3D systems.

The best example is the Dolphin emulator which allow GameCube and Wii games to be displayed in full HD - and by that, I mean that instead of the game outputting a 480p image and the emulator stretching it, the emualtor take the 3D data and textures and display them in a 1920*1080 resolution.

Basically the same thing that playing a PC game in 640*480 then putting the resolution to 1024*768 or better.

For people that own a Wii U, that's the difference between Zelda Twilight Princess on Gamecube/Wii and the Wii U HD version, and even more since Dolphin can also apply more effects. Also some games received patches for HD textures and stuff but we're going far from straight emulation.

 

 

Preaching to the choir there.  I really had no idea how much we were denied until Dolphin not only popped up but then got closer to perfection.  One dragon I chased in reverse was making it right by the Gamecube after realizing its real potential.  When that v3 just came up for the GC2HDMI external adapter from ZeldaXPro I couldn't pay my $100 fast enough for the kit and cable.  Truly mind blowing to see the real hardware match the Dolphin output, no funny filters, no games, just clean visuals on original hardware.  But even that there is a cheat as it was all lost until someone made a HDMI capable wire to make the hardware really show what it could do.  The jump to WiiU was nothing anymore in the least bit other than maybe some redrawn textures and added bits of detail as the sharp quality persists.

[seastalker]

Though I mentioned the Dolphin's capability before, Catpix SHOWS it. Maybe this is where I came up with the thread idea.  That and the controller idea.  Look at the PS1-PS4 controller designs.  Basically the same shape with some modernizing along the way, but not like SMS to Genesis leap or all the Nintendo changes.  Even new retro controllers for the Genesis, Saturn and Dreamcast are getting the modern standardized double handgrip look so it's a thing.

 

I'm sure a PS8 future controller option will be just as handy for playing all PS games (except we will get 3 years battery life on one charge).  Xbox is similar in controller designs.  As systems, the 360 had design flaws and the PS3 is the twin in terms of both design flaws and PITA to fix design flaws unless, funny enough- their first models were the worst, slims were the best, and 3rd models have hacking limitations or just not as good as the slims.  Oddly similar paths of their timeline. So, I'll add that working on the upkeep of modern systems is worse than older ones- you have not only electronics to learn, but mechanical repair with moving parts... and don't get me started on proprietary power-supply changes on each of those revisions. 

 

Some of the younger crowd probably love the post-2000 consoles. Many newer consoles are like beefy PCs, and also played on flat panel displays so I don't feel as differently than I do for 90's and earlier. Another factor to add is time for games.  I loved Resident Evil 4 on the wii, but in the same way I shy from tv series, I just don't have time for modern games that suck a month away. A simple game that takes that long to master is one thing but a drawn out linear story I just can't do anymore. So for the handful of PS2 onward and Xbox  (jury is still out on OG xbox) using the same basic controller shape, I think PC emulation if not there now, will be the way to go. FPGA over HDMI and component CRT for N64, PS1 and earlier are fine by me. I'm keeping my recapped non-TMSS Sega genesis for the foreseeable future though.

 

Pocket and Mister have my handhelds covered. Saturn-waiting for ODE to buy. Dreamcast is interesting because my modded one plays well on a VGA monitor, but I hesitate on the HDMI mod because I can see Redream taking the dreamcast to Dolphin levels. Dreamcast is most on my radar to see my own best solution who never had one 20 years ago. I'd like to try a real Vectrex someday because even with Mister, you can't recreate the original monitor. That's a unique system I can see keeping around. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by seastalker

[Keatah]

19 minutes ago, seastalker said:

I'm sure a PS8 future controller option will be just as handy for playing all PS games (except we will get 3 years battery life on one charge).  Xbox is similar in controller designs.  As systems, the 360 had design flaws and the PS3 is the twin in terms of both design flaws and PITA to fix design flaws unless, funny enough- their first models were the worst, slims were the best, and 3rd models have hacking limitations or just not as good as the slims.  Oddly similar paths of their timeline. So, I'll add that working on the upkeep of modern systems is worse than older ones- you have not only electronics to learn, but mechanical repair with moving parts... and don't get me started on proprietary power-supply changes on each of those revisions.

 

Not only that but newer systems will require more precise tools. Your grandfather's 200Watt Weller Gun isn't going to help with SMDs. And the level of integration keeps increasing out of your favor, so accurate diagnosis will be important. Otherwise you'll spend a lot of money shotgunning parts. Is it this? No it's this. Ahhh this one!

 

Changing a chip? Chances are it could be a BGA and then you're really up shit creek without an oven or regulated heat gun.

[seastalker]

39 minutes ago, Keatah said:

 

Not only that but newer systems will require more precise tools. Your grandfather's 200Watt Weller Gun isn't going to help with SMDs. And the level of integration keeps increasing out of your favor, so accurate diagnosis will be important. Otherwise you'll spend a lot of money shotgunning parts. Is it this? No it's this. Ahhh this one!

 

Changing a chip? Chances are it could be a BGA and then you're really up shit creek without an oven or regulated heat gun.

Exactly! Not to mention early Xbox 360s and PS3s are in my opinion the two WORST systems to work on! There are TONS of screws of all different types to keep track of, a puzzle to put back together, custom opening tools, and of very few systems where end users need to actually fix crippling design flaws as a maintenance given... if you have to do reballing on a PS3 phat or 360 white, you really should have special gear for it. Only design 'flaws' I otherwise contended with are the clock capacitors and batteries in an OG xbox, Amiga and Apple IIGS.  

[Keatah]

Not sure how a clock battery or capacitor constitutes a design flaw. The batteries are necessary evils and their potential leakage issues can only be mitigated by mounting them remotely off-board.

 

SuperCapacitors may eventually become more commonplace as their prices come down and the CMOS circuitry they power become even more power efficient.

[seastalker]

Keatah, respectfully I suppose you and I aren't on the same wavelength (in this thread, at least). Maybe lost in translation, but just like 'ashamed' is not implied by not wanting to admit something, the marks around the word flaws were there to provide context of how little such design problems like the 360 and ps3 models mentioned exist anywhere else. Those other systems'  'flaws' are sure easy to take care of if you catch them in time, and I'd work on them any day over a PS3 or 360 ever again.  Any flaws if anything at all are a lack of future planning if a component could leak and render the system useless, but still only if they took the cheaper route and knew about it. If that was all that was available, then it is not. I've heard capacitors took a dive somewhere around the mid-2000s too so if that was all that was available and the quality dip was unknown, it is harder to blame a manufacturer of the era. A mostly trivial demonstration can be at the soldered vs. easily drop-in replaceable batteries of a 3do, Saturn and dreamcast where convenience or not doesn't make or literally break the console.  Amigas and OG Xbox's typically aren't as lucky. Why does a more modern system like Gamecube have more disc rot than earlier titles?  Design flaw (of discs) or cutting corners? [I am not implying either way.]

[Keatah]

Lost in translation and speed reading. So no big deal.

 

[MrMaddog]

Ok, how about this scenario...

 

You have a real Sega Saturn (or some other 4th/5th gen CD-ROM console) and imported games, but you can't read any Japanese text.

 

Then you find out that RetroArch can translate the text using an AI service and can use physical disks.  Is it worth building a $400 NUC w/ DVD drive to be able to play your imported games that you couldn't get far with before on actual hardware?

 

[seastalker]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

SuperCapacitors may eventually become more commonplace as their prices come down and the CMOS circuitry they power become even more power efficient.

 

I'd have to look up this tech but it sounds intriguing. Maybe I am late to the party, but what is a Super Capacitor if not from Console5?  In all seriousness, I wonder how I have yet to hear of this and am excited for any potential improvements.

[seastalker]

MrMaddog - that RetroArch feature would be amazing! The 32x is interesting in perhaps a similar regard, though far less numbers in available software. My 32x, already on thin ice in the "Should I keep or should I sell" realm, cannot play some protos/demos/homebrew that an emulator can.

[Keatah]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

..as good an explanation as any.

 

The supercapacitors that console5 sells are exactly that. Supercaps.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Keatah

[seastalker]

Wow Keatah, thank you! I had no idea that my cap kits from Console 5 already incorporated these into them.  I just thought their caps were some high end quality Japanese ones. I now have one more reason to love Console5.

[Nintendo64]

Another great thing about emulation is to that your able to use controllers that were designed for other systems. My favorite controller of all time is the ps2 controller. I am able to use a wireless, almost exact replica, ps2 controller to play nes, snes, sega genesis, ps1, and n64 games on my pc. Also with emulation you can remap controllers to fit any custom button mapping that you want.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Nintendo64

[Keatah]

6 hours ago, seastalker said:

Wow Keatah, thank you! I had no idea that my cap kits from Console 5 already incorporated these into them.  I just thought their caps were some high end quality Japanese ones. I now have one more reason to love Console5.

 

The term "cap kits" implies a set of regular capacitors of various values intended to replace aging parts. They may or may not be SuperCapacitors depending on the spec and intended usage and required value. They may be just regular capacitors - and if they are high quality then all is well.

 

A SuperCapacitor may be completely 100% unsuitable for a radio or other RF or HF video circuitry where small values are needed.

 

Console5 sells both regular capacitors and SuperCapacitors. Remember one isn't more high-quality or superior than the other. SuperCaps just use a modified technology to get higher values in a smaller package. SuperCapacitors behave like batteries for low-power like CMOS clocks and battery backup.

 

[Gamemoose]

Emulation is a path I've been wrestling with for a while. With my limited space and even time, the benefits of emulation is obvious. No aging hardware to worry about (if your emulation device dies, just shuffle to another device), save states, can play anywhere (if your device is mobile), easy mods, can use any controller, etc. It's technically superior all around.

 

However, on my personal quest to find that "happy spot" with emulation where I feel it's good for play, my expectations changed on New Year's Eve. I played my original NES on a portable CRT TV and it was like seeing SMB for the first time. I was blown away on how great it looked compared to my NES Classic or emulation on my PC. And played! Between that and Kid Icarus, I was playing like I was back in middle school-ripping through a dungeon in Kid Icarus with ease or plowing past Goombas in SMB. The emulation side, mainly on my Classic, I didn't play as well and I chalked it up on the passage of time. That night, either I was having a REALLY good game night or there really is something about playing real hardware on a display it was designed for. I became more of a purist again. Playing a real N64 on both the living room LCD (which is a decent set) and on my CRT is like playing two different games to me.

 

On that note, I do find I can't get my gaming fix at home that often. So I emulate using my 3DS to play NES games. That does well enough and scratches that itch for a half hour. I'm currently almost done with the 1st Quest in Legend of Zelda.

 

So I admit, for me, emulation may be technically better and I do use it for portable gaming. However, I prefer the real deal. Kinda like baking bread-yeah I can buy a loaf and eat a ham sandwich but I'd rather spend the time and bake a loaf myself.