Season 17 Round 2 - Kung Fu

[bubufubu]

Congratulations, I guess, on digging up a, quite possibly, lone instance (I don't have the desire to check out all my previous high score posts but evidently you do) from nearly 5 years ago.  Since you've brought it up, let's go beyond your cherry picking and have a look at some additional posts from that very thread:

 

  

On 6/25/2015 at 8:14 AM, CGQuarterly said:

Well, I did put in the rules that people should not "point press". If you're saying that you camped out in the graveyard and wasted zombies until the timer ran out and you died, then in my opinion that goes against what I said in the rules. Ultimately it's up to everyone else to decide. The thing is, we could all just do exactly what you did, but for me at least that takes the fun out of playing the game because I don't want to have to camp out for several minutes point-pressing each time I play through the game.

 

"Ultimately, it's up to everyone else to decide." - Notice how he's not being as black & white/rigid/strict about it as you.  Perhaps, you are more serious about this than you care to admit.  I mean, hey, this is a super casual high score club but no games are up for discussion when it comes to the rules, right?

 

"The thing is, we could all just do exactly what you did" - He's absolutely right about this when it comes to Ghosts 'n Goblins.  However, that type of simplicity does not pertain to Kung Fu.  Not by a long shot.  People who actually know the game well are very aware of this.  At the time, I didn't have a clear enough definition of what CGQuarterly believed point pressing to be.  I was, in fact, trying to beat the game and I also made it a point to limit how many times I collected a 1-Up.  Certainly, my run could not be described as just camping out in one spot and killing enemies.  I posted my GnG picture along with transparent comments about my strategy.  Frankly, not everybody understands the difference between leeching and point pressing.  I've seen many people confuse the two and come up with their own ideas, sometimes without giving it much thought.  I absolutely stand by my assertion that an outright ban, without any discussion and open-mindedness from game to game, on point pressing is totally nonsensical for a high score contest.  I bet CGQuarterly would agree with me on that.

 

  

On 6/25/2015 at 12:07 PM, CGQuarterly said:

Well, I'm just going to leave it up to people to play the game however they want, then. If someone wants to make a serious run at your score, then they can just go ahead and point press.

 

  

On 6/25/2015 at 12:48 PM, CGQuarterly said:

 

That was my whole point. I't just sucks the fun out of the game. But it sounds like bubufubu can beat the game with his eyes shut, so for him the fun is in trying to milk the game for maximum possible points. Bubu, just do it both ways. I doubt we'll be able to beat either score, anyway.

 

^ Look at the way he handles it.  Treating it casually, he leaves it up to the participants to play the game however they want.  And after I tell him that I'm going to make another run that will hopefully be more in line with what he wants, he still requests me to play it both ways.  Heck of a nice guy and I hope I get to shake his hand someday.

 

  

  

On 6/25/2015 at 2:59 PM, DonPedro said:

Re: camping and point pressing in games with timed stages.

 

I'm ok with it if it's done like for example in Metal Slug or Shock Troopers games, where a player can rush through stages or proceed carefully - more enemies will appear in some places then, but there's a finite number of them and you are prompted to proceed further after a while. So it's a risk / reward thing.

 

For games where you can just camp and kill infinitely respawning enemies, that's a grey area - I don't think it technically can be considered point whoring / leeching etc, due to time limit; but it's just boring and I'd rather not do it.

 

  

On 6/25/2015 at 7:03 PM, S.BAZ said:

awesome, maybe someday I'll beat Ghosts 'N' Goblins!

 

to me point-pressing seems fine when there is a timer (like the jumping next to Donkey Kong thing).

 

letting the timer run out, die & repeat, that makes it a grey area, imo. but even that sounds like it might be OK for Ghosts 'N' Goblins, considering there are a limited number of extra lives available, so it can only be done a few times. but only if you can't keep getting extra lives

 

if it's possible to collect the same 1-up more than once, then of course that's not fair but as long as you don't do that point-pressing seems fine by me.

 

^ It doesn't seem to be a case of black & white for these two when it comes to point pressing.

 

4 hours ago, asponge said:

Again, this was a rule in this HSC before I became a member.  I've continued the rule in deference to the HSC.

 

Let's go to the tape:

  

On 2/1/2012 at 12:20 PM, CGQuarterly said:

This season, the NES HSC is going to participate in the AA-wide knockout competition. See the rules here:

 

http://www.atariage....t-announcement/

 

If you get knocked out, you can still compete in the NES HSC, but your score will not count towards the knockout tournament. So I'll be posting 2 sets of results for each round.

 

Title: Gradius

Developer: Konami

Publisher: Nintendo

Released: December, 1986 (US)

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/bpx0o9_5qRo

 

Rules:

 

No Konami code! (Duh)

 

This round will end on Tuesday, February 7th.

 

Absolutely no mention of "point pressing" in the rules there or in the entirety of that thread.  I'm betting I could dig up more rounds like this, but I'm too tired at the moment.  In any event, the above doesn't fit your narrative.

 

5 hours ago, asponge said:

Yes, I believe you would have the best score of everyone participating in this round who were following the same rules.  I do not understand why that's a problem.

 

Whether or not I would, I can't say.  That's up for debate and it's not even the point.  The problem is that you specifically typed "a huge score" and I'm telling you that that is next to impossible on Game B without point pressing.  You have 1 minute, 48 seconds to complete each stage, I believe.  You have to wait until the 12th enemy to earn a bonus of 5,000 points, assuming you have met and continue to meet the other conditions.  You are allowed a total of 4 lives.  Given all this and the fact that the game becomes very difficult from loop 3 onward, there shouldn't be any issue with point pressing.

 

5 hours ago, asponge said:

As far as I know, I'm the only one preserving NES high scores from this site.  I do it for fun and for whomever wants to check out their stats over the years.  If you want to be immortalized, there many other sites for that.

 

And that's called score tracking.  You're not the first to do it on here and you, likely, won't be the last.  CGQuarterly was preserving scores for each NES HSC game, before you:

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/207173-nes-hsc-all-time-high-scores/

 

"be immortalized"?  Yeah, this doesn't even apply to me.  Much of the time, I hardly have anything to say about my own scores.  If you have some sort of personal problem with me, then handle it through private message.  At the moment, you and Tempest aren't making me feel very welcomed.

 

[asponge]

1 hour ago, bubufubu said:

Ultimately, it's up to everyone else to decide." - Notice how he's not being as black & white/rigid/strict about it as you.  Perhaps, you are more serious about this than you care to admit.

We just had the point pressing conversation while playing Super Mario Bros a few weeks ago. I left it up to the players to decide. Again, no one felt strongly that the rule should be removed so it wasn't.

1 hour ago, bubufubu said:

If you have some sort of personal problem with me, then handle it through private message.

I apologize for the sarcasm. I have no personal issue with you whatsoever. I just fail to understand why this is such a problem.  All I'm asking is that whomever participates follows the same rules as everyone else. 

[Tempest]

This is a super casual high score club.  We're not your normal high score runners, we just play the way a normal player would.  That means no point pressing, no cheats, no exploits, and no other methods of running up the score that would be out of the ordinary (like exploiting the 1 Ups in SMB).  I don't know how this club was run in the past as I only started participating last year, but this is how asponge has chosen to run it now.  If you're looking for a more 'hard core'  high score challenge then there are tons of other places for that.  This club is more of a bunch of friends getting together at someone's house and trying to see who can get the high score that night.

 

I'm not trying to chase you off, I just think that you're looking for something different from this than the rest of us are.  I also think that you'll probably be bored as you're obviously playing at a much higher level than the rest of us if your Kung Fu score is any indication.  Arguing with asponge isn't going to change that.

[rubeon]

121,850

 

I’m not great at this game, but it’s such a fun little punch ‘em up ?

 

FYI, I do try to jump-kick every 12th enemy to get the point bonus, so feel free to disqualify my score.  I feel like that’s the right way to play the game, and it feels weird when I purposely don’t do it.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by rubeon

[mbd30]

1 minute ago, rubeon said:

121,850

 

I’m not great at this game, but it’s such a fun little punch ‘em up ?

 

FYI, I do try to jump-kick every 12th enemy to get the point bonus, so feel free to disqualify my score.  I feel like that’s the right way to play the game, and it feels weird when I purposely don’t do it.

 

 

 

I think it's fine to do that as long as you aren't point pressing by running down the timer doing it instead of just normally completing the level.

 

[Tempest]

30 minutes ago, mbd30 said:

 

I think it's fine to do that as long as you aren't point pressing by running down the timer doing it instead of just normally completing the level.

Yes I think that's fine too.  If you were hanging out at the end of the level after the boss and milking it, that would be an issue.

 

I think what got bubufubu into trouble is that he was clearly not normally proceeding through the level and was hanging around the pots and moths on levels 2 & 4 in order to keep racking up points.

[fakecortex]

I was actually just going to ask about the every 12th enemy thing. I never knew about that! Gonna have to give it a try.

[Mangia-Boy]

[asponge]

4 hours ago, rubeon said:

FYI, I do try to jump-kick every 12th enemy to get the point bonus, so feel free to disqualify my score.  I feel like that’s the right way to play the game, and it feels weird when I purposely don’t do it.

Yes that's just fine.  As Tempest and mbd30 just stated, it's the camping that's the issue not going for the bonus points as you're moving through the level.

[fakecortex]

So I went to try the 12th guy bonus point for the first time, and as soon as I do...my NES freezes. I guess it wanted to weigh in on the debate ?

 

 

I then learned that it doesn't work on the knife guys anyway. I think.

 

Anyway, new high score! Got a few of those bonus points in on the way. Thanks!

 

121,060 floor 1-3

[Tempest]

Not a high score, but I thought this was funny...

 

 

[fakecortex]

130,640 Getting a little better and cursing those knife throwers.

 

[Tempest]

304,330

 

No point pressing, just pure luck. 

 

[fakecortex]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

304,330

 

No point pressing, just pure luck. 

 

Wow! Nice job!

[Tempest]

46 minutes ago, fakecortex said:

Wow! Nice job!

Thanks.  Level 3 still gives me trouble as there are way too many knife throwers.  I think I finally found a good strategy for Mr. X which helps.

[mbd30]

Wow, B mode is tough. I'll be happy to complete a loop.

 

[mbd30]

Oh. My. God.

 

139,540

 

[S.BAZ]

I'm happy to abide by the rules as given by the moderator, but if it's ultimately up to what everybody wants, I have to say my piece:

 

I've never heard of no point-pressing other than recently in this HSC, and I don't understand why it would be against the rules.

 

I understand "no farming." 

I understand "no leeching."

or "scumming" or "glitches" etc. -- other terms like this.  These rules make sense.  It means don't abuse glitches or programming oversights, and don't do stuff that allows you to stay in the same place racking up points indefinitely, or playing the same level over and over, getting the same 1-up over and over... etc, etc.

 

The purpose of these rules is to keep the contest fun and competitive.  It ensures that SCORE counts for something.

 

But I've always understood "point-pressing," whether at AtariAge, Highscore.com, TwinGalaxies, RetroUprising, or even local contests at the arcade -- point-pressing means getting the most points you can without abusing glitches or exploiting programming oversights or what-not.  It means getting all the points you can from each area before the time runs out, for example.  It means using whatever skills or strategies you might, within the confines of how the game was designed to be played.

 

The purpose of the timer in arcade-style games, is to keep the game fun and competitive.  It ensures that SCORE counts for something. 

 

It makes it so you can try all you want for more points, but you must hurry along or you will die.  So you can't just sit there and farm.  It was clearly intentionally designed by the makers of the game, to make trying for more points a fair strategy for competition.  It is there to make sure the SCORE is a fair way to measure performance.

The timer is there so that people competing at the game don't have to come up with rules to make it competitive, and fun, and fair.

 

In a high score contest that doesn't allow point-pressing, in some games I have to constantly feel like I might be borderline breaking the rules.  Like, what if I go down a tube in SMB and have to run back & forth a few times in order to pick up all the coins before going back up? 

 

Isn't that point-pressing?  The timer is ticking away and I'm running back and forth.  I'm thinking in my mind, these 200point coins are more valuable use of my time than hurrying past them, since each second on the clock is worth 50pts, and I'm getting them at a faster rate than 1 every 4 seconds.  Isn't that point-pressing?

 

So should we be required to only go forward to the exit tube, no retracing steps to get all the coins in the bonus room?

 

"Camping"

 

I don't understand how there could be such a thing as "camping" when you've got a timer.  That's what the timer is there for.  Especially when it gives you a time bonus for faster completion of the stage.

 

"Casual"

 

Another point - casual or otherwise, this is a contest.  And what makes a contest fun is to try our best.  So I don't understand why "casual" would make any difference in this question about point-pressing.  To me casual just means I don't have to stress about whether someone scored more than me.  I'm just happy to see their big score and try my best.

 

Plus -- a high score contest is essentially a point-pressing contest anyway.  It's a contest to get more points.  Otherwise, why not just count levels completed, or do a speed-run or something?  We're trying for the most points. 

 

Unless there is a fixed number of points in each stage, that's essentially what we're doing.  Pressing for points.

 

Which is different from leeching, farming, exploiting glitches, cheat codes, save states, etc, etc.

 

 

I think I've made my point.

As I said I'm happy to participate whatever the rules may be.  I won't complain moving forward if that's still the rules.  But, I will probably start asking a lot of clarifying questions as to just where everybody is drawing the line when they play.  Especially in platformers.

 

I guess one more thing -- I'm honestly not happy about bubufubu getting a hard time for this with KUNG FU of all games.  That game is just a straight-up, straight-forward, well-made arcade game and the score is the performance rating.  Nobody ever complained at the arcade about someone killing extra guys after the boss before the time goes out.  It's your choice to lose points while gaining points if you think it's gonna help.  And you only have a few moments to do that or else you die.

 

I was very inspired by bubufubu's score and it has given me incentive to try harder, and adds to my fun while trying.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by S.BAZ

[S.BAZ]

129,370  my best so far.  Very hard!  good scores, y'all!

[mbd30]

"

In a high score contest that doesn't allow point-pressing, in some games I have to constantly feel like I might be borderline breaking the rules.  Like, what if I go down a tube in SMB and have to run back & forth a few times in order to pick up all the coins before going back up? 

"

 

IMO, the only ways that you can really point press in SMB is by burning lives, especially abusing extra lives from bouncing on turtle shells as well as the reappearing 1up in 8-2. I wouldn't consider gathering all the coins to be pressing. I think that one life rule is the best for SMB because of the reappearing 1up but that might raise the difficulty too much for a casual contest.

 

But you raise a good point about the ambiguity of the no point pressing rule. It's not always clear cut. And yeah it might be a good idea to allow it for certain games where you are restrained by timer.

 

.

 

 

 

[S.BAZ]

It seems to me, literally the whole reason why the timer is there.

[asponge]

I appreciate everyone's feedback.  We obviously now have at least three players who feel the point pressing rule should be dumped.  Frankly, I get that the rule is sometimes ambiguous.  Obviously standing in one place killing respawned enemies in Contra is a lot different than killing some extra enemies before the timer runs out.  But, I was trying to be consistent and not change the rules from game to game in an effort to keep everything simple.

 

In past HSC years, point pressing was nearly always discouraged or expressly against the rules.  This is not something that I made up.  That's why I'm a little taken aback by some of the responses.  Go ahead and search "point pressing" on this forum.  You'll find plenty of discussion about it well before I took over.  Although I do apologize to bubufubu and everyone else on this board for my reaction.  I was being a bit of prick and that was unnecessary.

 

Let's just get it hashed out in this thread and take vote so we can just move on from this and enjoy NES games like we're here for.  And, if anyone has a better term than "point pressing" I'm all ears.  The phrase itself seems to be problematic.

 

Please respond Aye to kill the point pressing rule or No to keep the rule for all timed games.  Any others we can take on a case by case basis.

 

 

[mbd30]

Aye, I guess just kill the rule for timed games.

 

However even some timed games keep giving extra lives from high score or have 1up loops so those must also be considered.

 

Low score/progress and one life contests are good options in some cases.

 

[Tempest]

No, keep the rule.  Point pressing makes the games incredibly unfun to me.

[fakecortex]

1 hour ago, mbd30 said:

Aye, I guess just kill the rule for timed games.

 

However even some timed games keep giving extra lives from high score or have 1up loops so those must also be considered.

 

Low score/progress and one life contests are good options in some cases.

 

I’m new to the term “point pressing”, but familiar with all the examples that have been discussed and all the subtleties. Seems like clear definitions are tripping people up. There have been a lot of good arguments here, for and against, but S.BAZ made a very good point about timers. I’d like I second mbd30’s comments, especially the idea of doing a Low Score Club!