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tripletopper

SCART, S-Video, and NTSF RF to VGA....

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Yes I was wondering how well do scart and VGA play well with each other?  I've seen passive adapters that go to both or red green blue RCA not sure whether it's RGB fornat or YPbPr format.

 

I did buy a mayflash VGA back and forth to YPbPr.  If a connection between scart and VGA is pretty much passive then since I'm using a VGA monitor as a CRT,  Then it should work for everything and have a short enough delay for everything except light gun games.

 

Also I see both active and passive composites an S-Video connectors to VGA.  And I do not know what is available on ntsc RF to VGA.  These items on Amazon and eBay do not make it clear what the source of the video is and what the destination of the TV is.  To and from could be a matter of perspective depending on which way you're starting from.  I'm looking for taking S-video on Nintendo 64 and Atari Jaguar I'm putting it in the VGA TV.  NES would use composite.  Atari 7800 and earlier with ntsc RF.  All the other systems I have either use scart RGB or ypbpr 3 RCA.

 

So for S-Video and composite,. Do I want the active connector or the passive connector?

 

Is there such a thing as Direct ntsc rf 2 VGA?  If not I can make one extra step of tuning the ntsc using the smallest thing I could find with a tuner and 8 mm tape recorder and player with tuner built in.

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Also one final question does DCART contain Dolby 5.1 encoded information or not?  The reason why I ask is to see whether it's futile to take sound out of scarf or not.  I got a way to do it for analog sound with L/R but I'm not sure if Dolby or DTS surround information is carried on those 21 pins are.  if it doesn't carry Dolby or DTS information, or 6 independent sound channels, there's no point trying to extract what's not there.

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With any composite/svideo/ypbpr to vga converter you find, you should read the specifications carefully as to what it exactly does.  I expect them to be active not passive.

 

Scart is a connector that could carry various types of audio and video signals.  It is typically associated with analog rgb 15khz 240p/288p or 480i/576i video.  VGA is a minimum of 31khz 480p.  Unless your monitor can scan down to a 15khz signal I would expect an active converter.

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VGA also use digital Horizontal and Vertical sync signals, SCART like any other standard resolution signal carrier (save for component I think?) use a vertical analog signal resolution (the horizontal resolution is "fixed", it's why a 1950's black and white tube TV doesn't have trouble displaying a 16/9 signal save for the broken aspect ratio). Unless the VGA display at the other end is also equipped with a proper analog sync chip, it won't work either.

 

The reason why you see passive VGA to SCART cords is that because many videoprojector maker didn't bothered to include a full scale SCART connector on their videoprojector and instead provided analog SCART RGB compatibility on the VGA port.

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I can't speak for cheap converters. As the saying goes, you probably get what you pay for.

 

I use a XRGB-2+ to do this. You can't do RF through them, but composite, S-Video, RGB, VGA and Component (with an included adapter). For RF, you're probably best off getting a VCR, running the RF through that, then using the VCR's composite pass through to send it to your TV.

 

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=XRGB-2

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=XRGB-2_plus

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I'm trying to use a CRT VGA monitor as a low ping way the play both old and new games.

 

I heard over 99% of the culpri, even in game safe mode is the draw time which is prevalent on anything but a CRT.

 

The most competitive TN monitors have 9 milliseconds.  If these converters take at most 9 microseconds the new saved 99.9% of the delay.

 

By the way SCART and VGA have analog RGB signal, correct?  The worst I'm going to have to do is it just height for signal aspect ratios and zooming in 

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They both have analog signals but analog video television RGB is interlaced (meaning that when displaying a picture, it only draw the odd lines, then the even lines at the next refresh).

VGA is progressive, meaning that it draw each line down.

Most modern VGA display doesn't understand interlaced video signals. 80's and early 90's VGA display may understand them as a few VGA video cards were producing interlaced video signals (I have a 286 computer with a video card able to display a 1024*768 interlaced video signal) but it's not a common rule.

An active converter is required to double the lines if your monitor isn't compatible.

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On 3/5/2020 at 8:38 AM, CatPix said:

They both have analog signals but analog video television RGB is interlaced (meaning that when displaying a picture, it only draw the odd lines, then the even lines at the next refresh).

VGA is progressive, meaning that it draw each line down.

Most modern VGA display doesn't understand interlaced video signals. 80's and early 90's VGA display may understand them as a few VGA video cards were producing interlaced video signals (I have a 286 computer with a video card able to display a 1024*768 interlaced video signal) but it's not a common rule.

An active converter is required to double the lines if your monitor isn't compatible.

I kind of figured as such.  But the main question is is the conversion time from interlace to progressive significantly less than a hundred microseconds.  The quickest non CRT TV has about 9 milliseconds of draw time.  So 1% of that would be about a hundred microseconds.  and most people whose primary concern is the actual gameplay would probably agree that gaining 100 microseconds of ping  to chop off 10 milliseconds of draw time ping is a good trade-off for literally everything except light gun games .

 

so is the conversion time quick enough work makes sense the play non CRT old school games on a VGA CRT? 

 

 

By the way, my Apple Macintosh from 2008 has an output that could go to composites and S video and my monitor and TV could display simultaneously and the TV is ahead of my built-in monitor.  at first it starts as a progressive manager so maybe a few monitors to have built-in progressive interlace changers.  So I think a 2008 monitor would be able to do interlaced as well as progressive, that an old-school VGA CRT should also deal with progressive and interlace mode correctly.  but if not it's worth the pay the few extra bucks and start off with the active converter.

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The directions seem kind of ambiguous.  I'm trying to put SCART Genesis,  SNES, Saturn, and Dreamcast outputs onto a VGA monitor.

 

I have a passive SCART to 3 RCA.  But I don't know if it's RGB or YPbPr.  If a passive SCART to VGA works, would that, combined with  a  VGA to 3 RCA YPbPr / 3 RCA YPbPr to VGA active converter, which has a power plug, which I already have, make the bridge complete?

 

Should I assume SCART can be passively converted to VGA, because both SCART and VGA use RGB?

 

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Scart and rca are just connectors, they'll carry whatever signals you give it e.g. rgb, ypbpr, composite, audio, etc.  If it's a passive  adapter than whatever signal goes in is coming out as long as the right pins are connected.  Same thing applies to a 15pin vga cable and connector.

Edited by mr_me

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6 hours ago, tripletopper said:

I have a passive SCART to 3 RCA.  But I don't know if it's RGB or YPbPr.

My bet would be on "neither". About 90% of the SCART to RCA adapters that I've seen convey composite video and stereo sound. Like I pointed out to you in one of your previous threads, there are some very uncommon adapters that have four RCA jacks in the colours of red, green, blue and yellow. I've never seen one in real life, much less used it, but I suppose it takes RGB signals + composite sync/video on the yellow. Also remember that if your cable has a male SCART connector, your adapter needs to have a female connector or something else inbetween with two female connectors that lets you relay the signals.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333534626861

 

I was trying to comment on all the other issues you bring up, but you are all over the place so I can't even make head or tails of what you have, what you are trying to achieve or how you expect to achieve it.

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1 hour ago, carlsson said:

....

 

I was trying to comment on all the other issues you bring up, but you are all over the place so I can't even make head or tails of what you have, what you are trying to achieve or how you expect to achieve it.

I got this one: he wants "low ping".

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1 hour ago, carlsson said:

...

 

I was trying to comment on all the other issues you bring up, but you are all over the place so I can't even make head or tails of what you have, what you are trying to achieve or how you expect to achieve it.

What I do have are:

 

System to SCART cords for these systems: Genesis 2/32X , Genesis 1/ Master System, SNES (and an original SNES model that accepts SCART). Saturn, Dreamcast.

 

I also have a VGA CRT with adjustments. a streamer/ recorder that accepts Composite, YC S Video, YCbCr/YPbPr 3RCA, and HDMI, and a VGA <-> 3RCA YCbCr  adapter with VGA passthrough in VGA > YCbCr mode.

 

The easiest thing that would help me most is a SCART to VGA adapter.

 

N64 and Jaguar can use an active S-Video to VGA adapter.  NES w/ composite can use this too.

 

Old systems can use an 8mm VCR for NTSC RF to Composite, and use it with the above.

 

Everything else uses either YCbCr 3 RCA or HDMI.

 

I got HDMI to work with VGA.

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14 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I got this one: he wants "low ping".

Bingo.  Priority one is best picture with low enough ping for everything except light gun games.  Light gun games will be direct to CRT TV

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8 hours ago, mr_me said:

Scart and rca are just connectors, they'll carry whatever signals you give it e.g. rgb, ypbpr, composite, audio, etc.  If it's a passive  adapter than whatever signal goes in is coming out as long as the right pins are connected.  Same thing applies to a 15pin vga cable and connector.

SCART has an RGB mode. So,  does VGA have an RGB mode?  If so, passive should be okay.

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5 hours ago, tripletopper said:

SCART has an RGB mode. So,  does VGA have an RGB mode?  If so, passive should be okay.

On 3/4/2020 at 7:04 PM, mr_me said:

Scart is a connector that could carry various types of audio and video signals.  It is typically associated with analog rgb 15khz 240p/288p or 480i/576i video.  VGA is a minimum of 31khz 480p.  Unless your monitor can scan down to a 15khz signal I would expect an active converter.

In addition to the scanning frequency being different, the RGB video games output has a composite sync signal where VGA displays expect separate horizontal and vertical sync signals.

Edited by mr_me

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So if one wants maximum colors from SCART RGB, and play it on VGA CRT monitor, with an "intangible" amount of ping, (something that feels natural, but doesn't have to be pixel perfect for light gun games), what would one recommend?

 

Also we have the issue of both 4x3 and 16x9 signals going into the VGA 4x3 CRT.  I have to adjust my CRT for 16x9 720p.  Is there such a thing as a "letterboxing device" which takes a 16x9 image, which is normally stretched vertically, and shrink the vertical to give a proper proportion 16x9 complete letterbox image?  Remember, if it's up to 100 microseconds, that is acceptable for anything except light gun games, and I have a separate video shooting range.

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4 hours ago, mr_me said:

In addition to the scanning frequency being different, the RGB video games output has a composite sync signal where VGA displays expect separate horizontal and vertical sync signals.

My VGA monitor can do 720p and fit all lines in screen (albeit horizontally compressed, unless I shrink vertical). Is that a 31 kHz monitor?

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All VGA monitors will scan as low as 31khz and higher.

 

This will convert 15khz rgb and ypbpr to vga.  It even has a 16:9 output option.  The only thing is it doesn't support composite and svideo input.

GBS-8220

https://focusattack.com/gonbes-gbs-8220-v3-cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb/

 

You can get a second converter for composite and s-video or the XRGB in post #5 might do it all.

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/302993-scart-s-video-and-ntsf-rf-to-vga/?do=findComment&comment=4473859

 

Edited by mr_me
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I currently own the following systems ( with the best unmodded connection I have listed

 

RF: 2600 (via 7800) , Bally. Odyssey 2, INTV 1, CV, 5200, 7800, Arcadia 2001, Supercharger, TG-16 ( should try to improve that)

 

Composite: NES

 

S-Video, N64, 3DO and Jaguar

 

SCART RGB SMS, 32XCD, SNES. Saturn, Dreamcast.

 

3 RCA YPbPr: PS1 (via PS2) PS2, Xbox Prime, Game Cube, Wii

 

Direct VGA: 360

 

HDMI: 360, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U. Switch, Wii (via Wii U.)

 

Miscellaneous equipment I own: Apple Mac Mini 2011 with OS 10.12, Hauppauge Rocket, (w composite, component, possible S Video, and HDMI)

Mac download for Rocket. Turtle Beach X41,   Compaq VGA CRT, a Mayflash VGA RGB <->3 RCA YPbPr converter.

 

And I have a SCART to 3 RCA converter, but don't know if it's YPbPr, RGB or composite plus L/R audio.  Colors are red, green and blue on the RCA females.

 

1. Would a passive SCART to VGA converter work we it the the Mayflash?

 

2.  Is a SCART a 31 kHz system that can be passively converted to VGA?

 

3.  is there an active letterboxer that can switch between 4x3 full screen, and 16x9 with a squished vertically picture to keep the characters in proportion.

 

4.  Is the ping "intangible" when playing anything except rhythm. Light Gun, and other ping intorerant games? 

 

 

 

Edited by tripletopper
Forgot one piece of equipment.

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SCART is a connector. It normally carries a combination of carry S-Video, Composite Video, RGB Video (15Khz) and Stereo Audio standards. It all gets ugly when it comes to the sync signal as there are 3 different methods of getting it depending on what you’re going to and from console wise. They are all composite sync by the way (ie combined horizontal and vertical). By far the most common is sync on composite video as that was the ‘standard’ in the UK/EU where SCART was a big thing. Sync on Luma is also a thing as is sync on green of the RGB lines (Sony like that one).

 

It all becomes a problem if you’re using consoles that generate c-sync (pure sync for want of a better expression), and the fact that there are different levels of sync. Finally just to really mess with you SCART has power going down it used for switching and on some consoles where there’s c-sync on one pin in the US, there’s 12v power on the UK model. Stick a US lead into a UK SNES and kiss goodbye to your monitor/tv.

 

This makes the whole discussion awkward as there are so many variances. It’d be nice if the standard was anything close to being a standard… RetroRGB is your friend, be prepared to read a lot.

 

To make matters more complicated we have VGA which is also RGB, but not the same as the RGB on SCART (though it can be… which is why things are never as simple as we’d like). VGA is RGB with separate syncs for Horizontal and Vertical, it actually pertains specifically to 640x480 at 31Khz, but people say VGA meaning the connector, which is a 15-pin DIN usually. To complicate things, VGA can use composite sync (combined, nothing to do with composite video) in some situations. Sync levels can also be different which can be a problem.

 

The thing is SCART, 15-pin DIN and BNC connectors can all carry both types of RGB signal. Indeed they can also carry component video YPrPb which is a different standard. If the kit supports it (some pro monitors can take both Component and RGB across the same connection, they usually need a button pressing when you do so. Also some monitors are Dual/Tri/Multi-sync monitors and can accept both 15, 24 and 31Khz RGB signals). But it’s an utter minefield when it comes to what will work with what.

 

As I say, your best bet is to have a good read over on RetroRGB https://www.retrorgb.com/rgbguide.html. It’s easily the best collection of articles on the matter. If you want a very simple overview of the different connectors and standards (it doesn’t go into much detail) there’s a thing I did ages ago when I started this particular journey on my site here http://80.229.1.38/geekery/videowafflage1.html

 

Sadly there’s no simple answer to your questions without knowing what’s going into what and where from specifically, and even then there can be complications. It’s a very, very deep rabbit hole this one.

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Well I did read, and very few people tried to hook SCART to VGA.  I guess I'm a pioneer.

 

I looked on ebay and can ONLY see passive SCART to VGA adapters.

 

I hope that's all I need.

 

I think I have a 31 kHz setting on my VGA CRT.

 

I do have a version of VGA which can show a complete 720p picture.  It can automatically sense and adjust to multiple Rez and hz settings.

 

If I just plug a SCART to VGA adapter into the VGA input, would it harm my system or monitor?

 

 

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I'm not sure what classifies as a "passive" adapter, but based on the cables I can find, those would be to connect a PC to a SCART monitor, either if the graphics card has the non-standard composite video output through the HD15 connector or somehow can be set to producing a 15 kHz image, e.g. for some MAME emulation mode. What you are trying to do is the opposite, connect an already existing 15 kHz source to a PC monitor that most likely does not support that signal, which is why you need an active upscaler (that also will introduce the feared lag).

 

If you plug a 15 kHz source into a monitor that doesn't support it, usually it will refuse to sync. You might get an on screen display that states your video signal is out of sync.

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