VBXE and Artifacting (Ultima IV is monochrome)?

[leech]

Is there a way to get games that utilize artifacting to look correctly to run through the RGB output of the VBXE?

I have tried on the 1084S-D1 that I have, and via SCART->OSSC->HDTV.  Both of these remove the artifacting from Ultima IV, causing it to be black and white.

Is there something I am missing in configuring this?

[+Stephen]

Not possible - artifacting is a (usually) unwanted side effect of using composite video.  Separate luma/chroma, and RGB are both better in image quality and signal bandwidth, hence no artifacting will happen.

[leech]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Not possible - artifacting is a (usually) unwanted side effect of using composite video.  Separate luma/chroma, and RGB are both better in image quality and signal bandwidth, hence no artifacting will happen.

Ha, so that follows up with, someone know Ultima IV's graphic output well enough to upgrade it to work with VBXE/Chroma&Luma?

[bfollowell]

Yeah, I know some software publishers back in the day used artifacting to their advantage, to get colors or more colors, but usually it was a side effect and the image was never really intended to look that way, even though we've all grown accustomed to it. It's been decades since I played Ultima, but I'm mainly thinking of the original. Wasn't it pretty much a monochrome game anyway? Not sure about IV. I never made it past III.

 

[leech]

Just now, bfollowell said:

Yeah, I know some software publishers back in the day used artifacting to their advantage, to get colors or more colors, but usually it was a side effect and the image was never really intended to look that way, even though we've all grown accustomed to it. It's been decades since I played Ultima, but I'm mainly thinking of the original. Wasn't it pretty much a monochrome game anyway? Not sure about IV. I never made it past III.

 

The original one was black and white.  I'm not sure 2 was, as I never really played it, most of it seemed to be.  3 and 4 definitely had color.  In fact I remember the colors were absolutely wrong on Ultima 3, with red water, and later found out it was because of some difference between the 800 and 800XL that I had.  So if I'd used Translator, it probably would have looked right (now that I have an 800 or two, I should try that again).  Ultima IV had the right colors on the 800XL, but now on the 130XE output through RGB it's just black and white.

[Faicuai]

46 minutes ago, leech said:

Is there a way to get games that utilize artifacting to look correctly to run through the RGB output of the VBXE?

I have tried on the 1084S-D1 that I have, and via SCART->OSSC->HDTV.  Both of these remove the artifacting from Ultima IV, causing it to be black and white.

Is there something I am missing in configuring this?

In general terms, NTSC artifacting is an integral part of Atari retro-experience.

 

There are a good number of legacy titles that will make great use of it, including SubLogic's Flight Simulator 2, Lode Runner, Ultima, IDSI's Pool (v1.5, with one of the finest and smoothest physics play-back that I've ever seen running on Atari in Gr.8 mode!!), and a host of other games and educational titles.

 

Furthermore, and what is really interesting (in my opinion), is how your screen EXPLODES with color and vividness when playing back Avery's linear video-player specifically in NTSC's COMPOSITE output (+ artifacting), instead of plain Y/C output. That is something to be seen, provided you have the right video path and processing bandwidth, for it.

 

Bottom-line: permanent, simultaneous output from your computer's native video signal (specifically Composite video) is to be preserved and kept on-line at all times (and preferably processed in parallel with Y/C output, all the way to final switching or rendering device). Watch for any video upgrade that kills it or disables it permanently. Not a good idea.

[Goochman]

1 hour ago, leech said:

The original one was black and white.  I'm not sure 2 was, as I never really played it, most of it seemed to be.  3 and 4 definitely had color.  In fact I remember the colors were absolutely wrong on Ultima 3, with red water, and later found out it was because of some difference between the 800 and 800XL that I had.  So if I'd used Translator, it probably would have looked right (now that I have an 800 or two, I should try that again).  Ultima IV had the right colors on the 800XL, but now on the 130XE output through RGB it's just black and white.

None of the Ultimas were B&W - from the original Apple version they used color to a degree - Water was def blue and mountains purple.  Ult 1 on the 800 doesnt use artifacting but looks stretched as it appears to be a gr 2 or 3 display.  U 2, 3, and 4 use artifacting on the 8bit for some color.

 

There wer some games that were converted to another 3 color mode BITD it appears to provide color to PAL users.  I think Drol is in mode 7 or 15?

[bfollowell]

Yes, I agree with Faicuai. I love the beautiful crispness of the new displays, but I don't want to get rid of my old. I'm building a 1088XEL soon, and it will have VBXE and Sophia DVI, but also UAV for perfect composite.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by bfollowell

[leech]

20 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

Yes, I agree with Faicuai. I love the beautiful crispness of the new displays, but I don't want to get rid of my old. I'm building a 1088XEL soon, and it will have VBXE and Sophia DVI, but also UAV for perfect composite.

 

I need to figure out if my 1084S-D1 is just knackered on the CVBS/LA switches, and only works in RGB, or it's that my cable I was using didn't want to use Chroma/Luma.  Pretty sure I hooked it up right at least, but that cable is what... 35 years old??

I do have another 1084S-D1, I can test on, but had to do that awful thing called work...

[invisible kid]

I played Ultima II quite a bit and thought it used artifacting excellently, title screen and game. The sound used in the title screen was a bit weird to me, not sure of the reasoning there...

[Rybags]

Likely an external converter generating composite video would generate artifacting.

But that'd defeat some of the purpose of the VBXE, the video quality is exponentially better than anything standard or modded.

[leech]

1 minute ago, Rybags said:

Likely an external converter generating composite video would generate artifacting.

But that'd defeat some of the purpose of the VBXE, the video quality is exponentially better than anything standard or modded.

Yeah, what I was wondering if there were a way to upgrade the FPGA to somehow support a way to 'fake' it.  Not sure exactly how you'd do such a thing though, if it's really just depending on doing funky things with display timings/noise that just works with composite. 

[Rybags]

The problem is the core is full, at least on the chips they used in the early V2 boards (I think they might be using a different AVR now).

Likely some reasonably simple logic could generate artifacting with a control bit or 2 to enable and select mode.

But I doubt we'll see it.

 

It only works with composite because the pixel clock on NTSC is a direct multiple of the colour clock and alternating on/off generates a waveform that's interpreted as a colour signal as well.

[bfollowell]

10 minutes ago, leech said:

Yeah, what I was wondering if there were a way to upgrade the FPGA to somehow support a way to 'fake' it.  Not sure exactly how you'd do such a thing though, if it's really just depending on doing funky things with display timings/noise that just works with composite. 

 

As I understand it, the core is pretty much full and there's very little room to add anything. If anything were to be changed or added, I'd much prefer to see a proper NTSC color palette added before artifact emulation, though that would be nice to have.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by bfollowell

[leech]

5 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

As I understand it, the core is pretty much full and there's very little room to add anything. If anything were to be changed or added, I'd much prefer to see a proper NTSC color palette added before artifact emulation, though that would be nice to have.

 

Is there a list of software that doesn't display correctly through the VBXE?

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, leech said:

Is there a list of software that doesn't display correctly through the VBXE?

None - it all displays properly.  There is no artifacting via Y/C either.

[leech]

52 minutes ago, Stephen said:

None - it all displays properly.  There is no artifacting via Y/C either.

Ha, which means it does not display correctly as per the programmer's use case.

[jamm]

Emulators can fake artifacting, so it's definitely possible to do. Sounds like it'd require a hardware upgrade (not to mention the code to emulate artifacting) in the case of the VBXE, though.

[bfollowell]

2 hours ago, leech said:

Is there a list of software that doesn't display correctly through the VBXE?

 

Since you quoted my comment about the NTSC palette, I'll assume you're asking about what doesn't display the right colors. I'd say, probably not, but basically anything that uses a PAL color palette, looks different than what you're used to if you're used to using an NTSC machine. I've seen lots of examples, but the only one that comes to mind at the moment is the shields on Star Raiders. On an NTSC machine they're blue or blue/gray. On a PAL machine they're green. The main Basic screen or Memo pad from an 800 is a vivid blue on an NTSC machine, but a greenish blue on a PAL machine. There are many examples like this. These would look perfectly normal to someone who grew up using a PAL 8-bit, but would look completely off to someone raised on an NTSC machine. Since the VBXE was developed in Europe, Poland I believe, they naturally  designed it for what they were used to, a PAL machine, and no one thought about making an NTSC model, or adding a second palette so that you could switch between the two.

 

I like the VBXE for the new stuff that we can do with it, but I would never play anything old on it for nostalgia reasons. It wouldn't look at all like "my" Atari. When it comes to playing old games I remember from my youth, I use either Sophia DVI or UAV composite. I'll gladly use VBXE RGB for most everything if an NTSC option is ever added.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, leech said:

Ha, which means it does not display correctly as per the programmer's use case.

No - not even close to correct.  Artifacting happens because of a shitty video standard (NTSC).  Take the original video signal before down converting to composite (again, in NTSC).  There is NO colour info when the "artifacted" colours are used.  It's a pulsed black&white signal where the phase of the start of the pulse determines colour.

 

Just because an inferior video standard was used, do not discount a proper RGB output.  Also, why don't you quote me an RGB or VGA artifact colour on any hardware?  Oh - doesn't exist.

[+Stephen]

44 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

I  like the VBXE for the new stuff that we can do with it, but I would never play anything old on it for nostalgia reasons. It wouldn't look at all like "my" Atari. When it comes to playing old games I remember from my youth, I use either Sophia DVI or UAV composite. I'll gladly use VBXE RGB for most everything if an NTSC option is ever added.

Not even close to proper statement.  Since 1985 I did not have artifacting on my Atari gear since I used proper monitor with real signals going to it.  The original hardware in 1979 supported native Y/C output.  Artifacting was an accidental by-product for cheap asses that had shitty video displays.  Anyone with a proper monitor all the way back to 1979 would not have these issues.  Don't downplay the hardware in 2020 because of mis-information!

[leech]

12 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Not even close to proper statement.  Since 1985 I did not have artifacting on my Atari gear since I used proper monitor with real signals going to it.  The original hardware in 1979 supported native Y/C output.  Artifacting was an accidental by-product for cheap asses that had shitty video displays.  Anyone with a proper monitor all the way back to 1979 would not have these issues.  Don't downplay the hardware in 2020 because of mis-information!

My point was that games like Ultima IV USE the shitty NTSC standard to create the colors, so when outputting through the VBXE it is in monochrome.  At least that is what others said is causing it to be monochrome, I just thought I had some weird version.  And seeing as how I can't seem to get either composite or Y/C working on my one 1084S, I'll have to move it to the other one, and see if I have any luck.  Wish I could find that other cable that I know I bought...

[jamm]

20 minutes ago, Stephen said:

No - not even close to correct.  Artifacting happens because of a shitty video standard (NTSC).  Take the original video signal before down converting to composite (again, in NTSC).  There is NO colour info when the "artifacted" colours are used.  It's a pulsed black&white signal where the phase of the start of the pulse determines colour.

 

Just because an inferior video standard was used, do not discount a proper RGB output.  Also, why don't you quote me an RGB or VGA artifact colour on any hardware?  Oh - doesn't exist.

 

Programmers took into account that practically everyone using these computers would be doing so on equipment that exhibited these artifacts.  Many of them addressed this fact in their software: either avoiding behaviors that would trigger artifacting or explicitly using the artificating's effects to their advantage.  Modern systems that don't take these intentional techniques into account absolutely are not presenting the video as intended.  Whether or not that bothers you as an individual is a personal issue.

 

@DrVenkman posted an excellent example in the "Best Atari 800 video upgrade" thread.  The first image with the colorless cockpit lacks color artificating whearas the second image shows the cockpit as the programmer intended it to look -- with the colors induced by the composite video artificating that 99% of Atari owners (at least in North America) would be seeing it with.

 

 

 

There's a reason many emulators provide the option to emulate artifacting effects, and it's not just nostalgia.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by jamm

[Faicuai]

2 hours ago, leech said:

Ha, which means it does not display correctly as per the programmer's use case.

Correct!!

 

And these will never show up as they were meant to be!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is pure artifacting working as it should!!

[kogden]

53 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Not even close to proper statement.  Since 1985 I did not have artifacting on my Atari gear since I used proper monitor with real signals going to it.  The original hardware in 1979 supported native Y/C output.  Artifacting was an accidental by-product for cheap asses that had shitty video displays.  Anyone with a proper monitor all the way back to 1979 would not have these issues.  Don't downplay the hardware in 2020 because of mis-information!

Cheap asses like 99.9% of the home computer market in the US?  Hell by the time Eastern Europe was buying these machines in number we were moving on to the ST, Amiga and Mac.  I know of almost no one that had Y/C monitors in the 80s but plenty of people using Amdek composite monitors.  Artifacting is the ONLY way to get color in hi-rez modes effectively and certainly beats not having color at all.  While I use S-video for most things, I do keep composite hooked up for games that used artifacting as well.  And there are quite a few.  Starfleet I and Retrofire! are another couple examples.

 

Apple II games made extensive use of artifacting as well.  And that machine was far from cheap.

 

While I'd love to have a Sophia or VBXE  board to plug my machine into a modern display, I'd hate to lose the ability to play games that use artifacting properly.  So I'll probably just go the UAV route.