Was/is the TIA really that bad?

[dodge ramman]

Games like Ikiri Warriors, Dig Dug, Double Dragon, Fatal Run, Galaga's start up, the Zamboni music in Hat Trick, Kung Fu Master, and the "They meet screen in Ms PacMan don't sound bad at all? Is the TIA under worked in other games! If it sounds pretty good in these games then could it have done better in others! I know the sound could be better! Just wondering if it was not worked to its full potential!  Here are some videos from youtube of the 7800's Tia working, The last one is on the 2600 with same TIA chip!

 

[RevEng]

For sure TIA has a bad rap. It's possible to hide sour notes with transposition, or these days just compose in the key of A. (A3)  While I'm thrilled about other sound chip choices coming on-board for the 7800 scene, I also viscerally love a well executed TIA song.

 

One of my favorite TIA homebrew tunes is the Man Goes Down theme...

 

 

I think I did pretty well with the Salvo theme. It leans less-chiptune than the other examples above, but it manages to pull off some bouncy and in-tune TIA music...

 

 

[dodge ramman]

14 minutes ago, RevEng said:

For sure TIA has a bad rap. It's possible to hide sour notes with transposition, or these days just compose in the key of A. (A3)  While I'm thrilled about other sound chip choices coming on-board for the 7800 scene, I also viscerally love a well executed TIA song.

 

One of my favorite TIA homebrew tunes is the Man Goes Down theme...

 

 

I think I did pretty well with the Salvo theme. It leans less-chiptune than the other examples above, but it manages a clear in-tune melody...

 

 

Yes I agree the Salvo theme is up there with some of the best on the TIA! I'm sorry I didn't include it in my list of samples, I was only listing a few quick ones I found on you tube for samples! I think we should have more use of the TIA! I think every system has it own unique sound and the Atari 2600/7800 has the TIA! Your Salvo, and these others sound like something you would hear on the NES!/Master System! on the man goes down I can here elements of Sega Genesis sound in it! Also on a side note After bying and playing games like Plutos and Sirius I know the system is capable of better graphics also! 

Edited March 6, 2020 by dodge ramman

[RevEng]

Thanks! No need to be sorry for not mentioning it. I certainly didn't expect it.

 

Agreed that we could use more good TIA music.

[dodge ramman]

4 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Thanks! No need to be sorry for not mentioning it. I certainly didn't expect it.

 

Agreed that we could use more good TIA music.

Yes I is great and worth mentioning!

[Synthpopalooza]

And with the horrid nails on a chalkboard that is 7800 Donkey Kong ... the 2600 port by Joe Musashi proves what the old TIA is capable of.  I wouldn't mind seeing that music and SFX imported into a TIA only 7800 Donkey Kong.

[+Stephen]

It's a shit chip for audio.  PoKey was the next generation and it was also shit.  However, with good composers( of which I am NOT!), the hardware limitations could be overcome.  Doesn't matter.  Both chips were garbage in terms of "musical prowess".  I love both though because a good artist will push past the limitations of the media and do great things!

[TailChao]

For music, yes - it's abysmal. I don't think Atari's style of LFSR audio generation was competitive until MIKEY rolled around, that one was a solid design.

 

But it makes great sound effects!

[Synthpopalooza]

With this setup:

 

POKEY 1 & 2 in 16 bit mode, 3 and 4 normal, plus TIA for percussion, is a decent match for the 2A03 in the NES.  It's a powerful music chip, utilized properly.

[RevEng]

I think saying it's abysmal is a bit much. It has more constraints than chips that came out a bit after it, like AY-3-8910, which isn't exactly shocking. The music in the examples above doesn't sound abysmal (not implying you said that) which would seem completely impossible if the chip itself were truly abysmal for music. Otherwise, you're missing some qualifier to the statement of why it's abysmal.

 

Of course value judgements on it's merit for music are all subjective, based on what constraints you're willing to work within, and what you consider acceptable results. Perhaps for some, anything less than a real orchestral score is abysmal. Whatever floats your boat.

[TailChao]

3 minutes ago, RevEng said:

I think saying it's abysmal is a bit much. It has more constraints than chips that came out a bit after it, like AY-3-8910, which isn't exactly shocking. The music in the examples above doesn't sound abysmal (not implying you said that) which would seem completely impossible if the chip itself were truly abysmal for music. Otherwise, you're missing some qualifier to the statement of why it's abysmal.

It was meant purely as what the transistors on the die are arranged to offer, not in regards to what can be cleverly done with them. The latter aspect I have no intention of belittling - ever. Rather that should be elevated because the capabilities are so limited. Same goes for POKEY.

 

For specifics, my fuss with the TIA is entirely in the divider size. Five bits isn't enough, POKEY made this less bad at the penalty of having to pair channels and getting a more convoluted waveform generator. I can't really fault Atari for designing them this way because the TIA was supposed to drive an entire Television in 1977 and the POKEY has to also, uh... PO and KEY.

 

Can they still be coerced into creating good music? Yes.

Do I think they were still competitive in 1984 or 1986 when the 7800 was released? No.

[RevEng]

So we're pretty much in agreement there. For the record, at no time did I think you were belittling anybody's work, but I thought the statement that TIA was abysmal for music just begged for some qualification. (which you added in your response.)

 

I've seen more than one dev put out an ear-bleed TIA tune and write off the result by saying something along the lines of "well, that's just how TIA is". Hopefully some future case of this will be avoided with the info in this thread, and the general consensus that the limitations can be worked around.

 

3 hours ago, TailChao said:

Can they still be coerced into creating good music? Yes.

Do I think they were still competitive in 1984 or 1986 when the 7800 was released? No.

 

Yeah, there's no logical argument for having used TIA in the 7800, aside from stupid business tactics. 

[swapd0]

23 minutes ago, RevEng said:

 

Yeah, there's no logical argument for having used TIA in the 7800, aside from stupid business tactics. 

If you want make 7800 compatible with 2600 you must include TIA.

[TailChao]

Quote

Yeah, there's no logical argument for having used TIA in the 7800, aside from stupid business tactics. 

Yes, if only Atari had offered a mapper with elegant paging, a proper raster counter, and capable audio expansion in 1988...

If only Atari had paid developers for larger and more impressive system sellers...

If only the board layout wasn't so noisy...

If only the R/W signal was properly split into OEn and WRn so the goofy timing bodge resistor didn't need to be there...

If only the controller ports had actual protection circuitry...

If only I had a sentient robot dog that could hold open doors, carry groceries, and do multivariable calculus...

 

Things would have been great!

 

 

30 minutes ago, swapd0 said:

If you want make 7800 compatible with 2600 you must include TIA.

Which, all things considered, was a fairly smart business decision.

Edited March 6, 2020 by TailChao

[RevEng]

1 hour ago, swapd0 said:

If you want make 7800 compatible with 2600 you must include TIA.

Ahhh, I knew there must have been a reason.  

 

I meant there was no logical argument for using it as the audio chip solution in a system of that generation (other than gcc's business tactics) since audio chips was the context we were discussing, but the correction is fair enough.  

[empsolo]

If you really needed the TIA chip for 2600 support, simply have an integrated CPU that can also handle the audio as well. Atari had the Famicom blueprints and specs, Warner should have pushed GCC to do something similar.

[Video]

Well Tia only had a single tone channel, and a single noise channel. For 2600 this was fine, as it was only intended to compete with the bazillion long consoles of its time. By the time the 7800 rolled around, it was WAY out of date, even including its intended market of 84.I

 

Also, most games were single person affairs, and being good and/or creative at programming isn't the same as being good at music. Add to that, the 2600 was often a compromise of gameplay, graphics, and sound, often subtracting from one area to add to another.

 

 That said, yeah, there's quite a bit of amazing music and sounds people manage to strangle out of that thing.  Many of my favorite games in fact have great music as titles, or throughout. Listen to the music on marble craze sometime, and there's 5 distinct tunes on that one!

 

Tia may not be very capable, so it always blows me away when great things come out of it, and many game effects in movies, even to this day, still sport tias own flavor of sound (eveven if it is quite often pacman or donkey Kong lol) just amazing what some people can get out of a beep and a fart. ?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Video

[RushJet1]

Many demos I've noticed stick to E minor with the C as a 7th etc because those are literally the keys available to the "6" sound that sound in tune.  The first TIA track I wrote does this exclusively:

 

 

You can do some stuff with the normal squares too but they're more shaky tuning-wise.  It helps to vary it up and have more than one thing going on per channel, like perscussion or harmonies.

 

 

You can even cover other tracks if you are smart about where they are transposed to so you avoid problem notes.

 

popcorn2600.mp3

 

But there are definitely tracks that aren't possible on the TIA, whether due to frequency problems or polyphony... I will say that such extreme limitations make it fun to write music for occasionally.

[dodge ramman]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:29 PM, empsolo said:

If you really needed the TIA chip for 2600 support, simply have an integrated CPU that can also handle the audio as well. Atari had the Famicom blueprints and specs, Warner should have pushed GCC to do something similar.

Yes, but Atari probably didn't want the Famicom sound! After all every console had it's own unique sound! At least back then! Think AC/DC and Def Leppard! Both great bands but you can hear one and the other and tell them apart just form the music! Very unique and distinct sounds! I myself would not want an Atari with Nintendo sound! At that point why not just buy a Nintendo? I think Warner made the right choice!

Edited March 9, 2020 by dodge ramman

[RushJet1]

2 hours ago, dodge ramman said:

Yes, but Atari probably didn't want the Famicom sound! After all every console had it's own unique sound! At least back then! Think AC/DC and Def Leppard! Both great bands but you can hear one and the other and tell them apart just form the music! Very unique and distinct sounds! I myself would not want an Atari with Nintendo sound! At that point why not just buy a Nintendo? I think Warner made the right choice!

I think this was a decision made based on cost alone, not on aesthetics.  They could have used a POKEY like the Atari 5200 if they wanted to avoid the "NES Sound" which wasn't really too prevalent back then anyway.

 

They probably basically looked at it and were like "we have this thing we need to release cheap.  Can it do sound?" and heard "yes" because of the 2600 support, and that was the end of the story.  Adding extra chip support for cartridge-based sound was a shortsighted way to sell the console cheaper. 

[Synthpopalooza]

On 3/8/2020 at 2:35 PM, RushJet1 said:

Many demos I've noticed stick to E minor with the C as a 7th etc because those are literally the keys available to the "6" sound that sound in tune.  The first TIA track I wrote does this exclusively:

 

 

You can do some stuff with the normal squares too but they're more shaky tuning-wise.  It helps to vary it up and have more than one thing going on per channel, like perscussion or harmonies.

 

 

You can even cover other tracks if you are smart about where they are transposed to so you avoid problem notes.

 

popcorn2600.mp3 366.64 kB · 8 downloads

 

But there are definitely tracks that aren't possible on the TIA, whether due to frequency problems or polyphony... I will say that such extreme limitations make it fun to write music for occasionally.

Is there also a setting that let's you play those same notes in F instead of E?  The Pitfall jump sound?

[RushJet1]

12 hours ago, Synthpopalooza said:

Is there also a setting that let's you play those same notes in F instead of E?  The Pitfall jump sound?

My statement about the key of E specifically applies to "sound 6" on the 2600.  Each sound/distortion has its own scale, though some are shared.

[Tidus79001]

One thing I will say is that I find the TIA sound to better than the sound produced on the Sega Master System that was just very plinky and high pitched.  The 2600 had some a nice range of sound from low deep rumbles to high pitched sounds.  Master System sound on the other hand just tends to make my ears want to bleed.  That all being said as these demos have pointed out it is how you use the hardware, so if you are clever you can get a lot of mileage out of these chips with clever programming to mask their limitations.  The music in Jr Pac-Man for the 2600, the warbling sound of Jr and gobbling of the pellet are some great examples of what the TIA can do and I always found those sounds very pleasing when playing the game.

[RushJet1]

8 hours ago, Tidus79001 said:

One thing I will say is that I find the TIA sound to better than the sound produced on the Sega Master System that was just very plinky and high pitched.  The 2600 had some a nice range of sound from low deep rumbles to high pitched sounds.  Master System sound on the other hand just tends to make my ears want to bleed.  That all being said as these demos have pointed out it is how you use the hardware, so if you are clever you can get a lot of mileage out of these chips with clever programming to mask their limitations.  The music in Jr Pac-Man for the 2600, the warbling sound of Jr and gobbling of the pellet are some great examples of what the TIA can do and I always found those sounds very pleasing when playing the game.

You can do similar things with the SMS to make it sound nicer:

 

 

Game gear is identical to SMS but with stereo.

[Lendorien]

On 3/8/2020 at 1:35 PM, RushJet1 said:

Many demos I've noticed stick to E minor with the C as a 7th etc because those are literally the keys available to the "6" sound that sound in tune.  The first TIA track I wrote does this exclusively:

 

 

You can do some stuff with the normal squares too but they're more shaky tuning-wise.  It helps to vary it up and have more than one thing going on per channel, like perscussion or harmonies.

 

 

You can even cover other tracks if you are smart about where they are transposed to so you avoid problem notes.

 

popcorn2600.mp3 366.64 kB · 10 downloads

 

But there are definitely tracks that aren't possible on the TIA, whether due to frequency problems or polyphony... I will say that such extreme limitations make it fun to write music for occasionally.

Can I just say that the Ataria track is pretty damn impressive?  

 

While I am not a composer or remotely musical, I have made the observation that having limited tools can sometimes force a composer to find new and innovative ways to approach a musical problem. The limitations of the TIA are what make the great compositions stand out.