Best replacement joysticks for a 60n1 cocktail

[Machine]

Ok, I am extremely unhappy with the joystick on our cocktail table. I mostly play 4way games like ladybug, pacman, Mr. Do, Mappy, etc.

The problem is I am constantly getting stuck on corners and can not make fluid turns with these joysticks.

Here is what is in out machine(I have tried both 4way/8way and both suck): https://www.amazon.com/EG-STARTS-Competition-Switchable-Elliptical/dp/B01MY8NQEW/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=Arcade+joystick&qid=1585015573&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFOSjdTUUI3S0VTNTImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0Mzc1OTkzMElJR0pKRzFOTTJJJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAzMTgwOTMzRFI5UUlOQ09NMUVFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

 

What is a good replacement joystick????

[Cynicaster]

Switchable sticks are inherently a compromise.  
 

If you’re focused on 4-way games, I’d recommend the Pac-Pro from GroovyGameGear. 

[doubledown]

Well the joystick you have linked to, is a knockoff copy of the Suzo HAPP Super joystick.  Which even in the case of an original HAPP Super Joystick, is a reasonably un-remarkable joystick.  The Pac-Pro from GGG is them modifying the HAPP Ms. Pac-Man 25th Anniversary reunion joystick (which in itself is a modification of HAPP's Super joystick) with leaf-switches vs. the modern micro-switches.  The Pac-Pro is not a bad joystick, I feel it's a better 4-way stick vs. the starting point, the HAPP Ms. Pac-Man 25th Anniversary reunion stick, but it's not perfect...and it is not convertible to an 8-way stick.  The biggest issue in my opinion with the Pac-Pro is the centering spring tension (I've read others complain about this too).  On the one I have, I clipped 2.5 coils off of the spring and re-closed the end, and now it's quite a bit better.   I also modified the mounting positions of the leaf-switches so that they would activate sooner off of center (making it more sensitive).  

 

All that said most aficionados will tell you that there is no great 4/8-way stick.  You either have a 4-way, an 8-way, or 2 joysticks.  So really, you need to decide if you can live with only a 4-way (losing 8-way game compatibility), live with an 8-way (causing issues with 4-way games), try one of the few convertible sticks (which again, are never perfect), or figure out how to mount 2 separate joysticks.  So you need to figure out which route you think you want to go, then I could probably help more with a recommendation.  

[Machine]

52 minutes ago, doubledown said:

Well the joystick you have linked to, is a knockoff copy of the Suzo HAPP Super joystick.  Which even in the case of an original HAPP Super Joystick, is a reasonably un-remarkable joystick.  The Pac-Pro from GGG is them modifying the HAPP Ms. Pac-Man 25th Anniversary reunion joystick (which in itself is a modification of HAPP's Super joystick) with leaf-switches vs. the modern micro-switches.  The Pac-Pro is not a bad joystick, I feel it's a better 4-way stick vs. the starting point, the HAPP Ms. Pac-Man 25th Anniversary reunion stick, but it's not perfect...and it is not convertible to an 8-way stick.  The biggest issue in my opinion with the Pac-Pro is the centering spring tension (I've read others complain about this too).  On the one I have, I clipped 2.5 coils off of the spring and re-closed the end, and now it's quite a bit better.   I also modified the mounting positions of the leaf-switches so that they would activate sooner off of center (making it more sensitive).  

 

All that said most aficionados will tell you that there is no great 4/8-way stick.  You either have a 4-way, an 8-way, or 2 joysticks.  So really, you need to decide if you can live with only a 4-way (losing 8-way game compatibility), live with an 8-way (causing issues with 4-way games), try one of the few convertible sticks (which again, are never perfect), or figure out how to mount 2 separate joysticks.  So you need to figure out which route you think you want to go, then I could probably help more with a recommendation.  

 

I don't know of any games on the 60in1 games that are 8 way??? Maybe Galaga?  Most are 4 way unless I am missing some. I only play maybe 20 of them anyhow.

I want a GOOD 4 way. I use to be able to get 300,000 on our Super Pacman(dedicated). With this shitty joystick, breaking 200k is almost impossible.

[doubledown]

I'd need a list of the games to be able to tell you what games are what, but most old school maze-like games and Donkey Kongs are 4-ways, side moving shooters like Galaga, Galaxian, Space Invaders, and Joust, Mario Bros. and the likes are 2-ways, but there are plenty of vintage games that were 8-ways...Zaxxon, Venture, Super Cobra, Popeye plus lots of others.  If you want one of the best 4-ways (especially for Pac-Man), you would want an original Bally 4-way, the very sticks used in Pac-Man and the likes.  The other option would be a WICO 4-way...a brand used by a lot of the original arcade classics, excluding Bally, Exidy & Nintendo.  Original Bally sticks sell for between $50-$100 these days depending on condition, and then depending on condition may need some clean-up, and/or replacement parts or repair.  There's a few on ebay right now...here's one that looks to be in pretty good shape (note, not mine, and I don't know the seller)...LINK

 

The WICOs are another option...a bunch of used ones on ebay, and new reproductions are currently available at Arcade Shop (one of my preferred vendors)...LINK

 

There are also the Nintendo 4-ways, both available as used originals on ebay, and sold as new reproductions at Mike's Arcade...LINK

 

The biggest difference between the three is what feels right to you for the game you're playing.  The WICOs are a bit stiffer, Ballys/Nintendos feel softer, and the Bally & Nintendo sticks are short shafts, and smaller ball knobs, whereas the WICOs are taller and larger (but can be drop-mounted to lower the knob height).  WICOs and Ballys use leaf-switches (silent, and can be adjusted for near instant actuation), Nintendos use micro-switches, so you'll hear the clicking, and if they're lever arm style micro-switches (as the Nintendos are), they can be "slightly" adjusted for actuation, but not as much as a leaf-switch.  

 

So it all ends up with the feel you want, how much you're willing to spend, and if you're capable of modifying the panel for its mounting, if the bolt-pattern is different that what you currently have (or make an adapter plate).  I make lots of custom controllers for home consoles (check the link in my signature for my portfolio) and I try to use "correct" controls types when possible.  I've spent as much as $125 each for 4 original Atari Gauntlet joysticks, and around $100 for an original Zaxxon joystick for a controller I'm currently working on.  I've also used $25 modern Japanese candy cabinet sticks like the Seimitsu LS-32, when I have limited mounting depths.  As you've obviously encountered, different joysticks definitely have different feels.  Some people can't tell the difference, but true players, especially those of us old enough to have actually played the original cabinets, are a little more discriminating.  

[Machine]

Mappy, Ladybug, Mr. Do, Pacman(ms., super, etc), DK1,2,3, Crush Roller, Van Van Car, Pengo, Qix, Rally X,....

I think they all are 4-way games. I have the POS joystick set up as 4way, so I want a dedicated 4way.

 

I am leaning toward the wico since they are new and leaf-spring. How do they work on Pacman and Ladybug? I imagine pretty well.

 

Also, where does it say the mounting measurements for the wico? Looks like the same as mine but I would like to make sure.

http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1538/wico-4-way-red-ball-3.5-handle-leaf-joystick.htm

(your wico link was wrong i think)

 

....and thank you doubledown, your help will make our arcade time much less frustrating. It sucks to die from a shitty controller, I do that on my own way too much.

[doubledown]

From your list:

 

Mappy - 2-way horizontal

Ladybug - 4-way

Mr. Do! - 4-way

Pac-Man, Ms., Super - 4-way

Donkey Kong 1, 2, & 3 - 4-way

Crush Roller - 4-way

Van Van Car - 8-way (according to KLOV, I'm not familiar with this game)

Pengo - 4-way

Qix - 4-way

Rally-X - 4-way

 

Your're right my WICO link was incorrect, the one you linked would be correct (with a red ball, for a metal panel).  So the reproduction WICOs are sold as 4-ways or 8-ways (not convertible, you have to buy the one you want as the restriction is built into the housing), with lots of different colors of ball knobs (molded to the shaft, and only replaceable as the whole shaft), and available in 3.5" and 4" versions.  This has to do with the overall length of the shaft, from the bottom of the ball, to the bottom of the shaft...at the very bottom of the joystick.  The 3.5" models are normally installed in thin metal panels, and the longer 4" models are installed in thicker wood panels.  The extra length accounts for the extra thickness of the control panel.  With a 3.5" WICO installed into a metal panel CPO, the top of the ball is approximately 2.75" above the panel, which would be about 0.625" - 0.75" taller than what an original Bally (Pac-Man) controller would be.  So you can install a stack of washers (approx. 0.625" - 0.75" thick), or 0.625" - 0.75" long spacers or standoffs between the bottom of the control panel and the top of the joystick base to "drop-mount" the stick, to lower the ball to your liking...assuming you have enough depth for this.  I've done this similar concept on a few of my custom controllers to match original specs when necessary.  The WICO mounting bolt pattern is 2.60" x 3.00" (center-to-center of the holes), which was a standard for a long time back in the day due to WICO.  Obviously you can mount it either of the 2 different 90 degree options, whereas the bolt pattern is 2.6" wide, by 3.0" high, or turn it 90, and then its 3.0" wide, by 2.6" high.  The industry standard back in the day was long side, width-wise, so 3.0" wide and 2.6" high.  But again I've done it both ways, depending on the controller I was building (physical limitations, artwork interference, and the likes).  If mounted directly to the underside of the control panel, the mounting depth of a WICO is approximately 2.25", then obviously deeper if you drop mount it.  

 

Obviously the WICO won't "feel the same" as a Bally, but I can assure you, as it was the "defacto standard" for so many companies back in the day (except for the few who made their own like Bally, Exidy, Nintendo), it is a great joystick.  Obviously so good, and so much demand that Arcade Shop went to the trouble to have them re-manufactured. 

 

The only other installation issue would be with the dust washer, should you choose to "drop-mount" a joystick.  So the large plastic dust washers can be installed on top of the control panel (which will partially cover artwork, and obviously the hole the shaft is coming through), or it can be mounted below the panel (as the base of the joystick has a top recess for this option and was standard back in the day).  If you drop mount the joystick, say 0.625", then the dust washer would be 0.625" below the control panel, not "just" below it as intended, leaving an unsightly hole.  So in addition to your washers/standoffs/spacers used to drop the joystick base, you would need to "raise" the dust washer with a spacer of equal length.  I did this for my Robotron: 2084 controller:

 

 

In this instance, a metal housing which would theoretically call for a 3.5" WICO, but the original cabinet had a wood control panel and used the 4" WICOs.  With the 0.5" longer shaft the "felt" leverage force is different so I drop mounted the 4" joysticks, and raised the dust washers the appropriate amount so that I could use the "arcade cabinet correct" 4" joysticks, with the dust washers properly mounted under the control panel, so that it was exactly as the arcade cabinet was...including the separation spacing.  

 

FYI Arcade Shop doesn't call out shipping costs in your cart, they calculate it when shipped/billed.  For me in Ohio, its usually around $10, and shipping is normally super quick, but with the state of the world right now, I'm not sure of their status.  

 

Happy to help, and let me know if you need anything else or have any other questions.  I'm always happy to talk about hardware.  

[Machine]

13 minutes ago, doubledown said:

From your list:

 

Mappy - 2-way horizontal

Ladybug - 4-way

Mr. Do! - 4-way

Pac-Man, Ms., Super - 4-way

Donkey Kong 1, 2, & 3 - 4-way

Crush Roller - 4-way

Van Van Car - 8-way (according to KLOV, I'm not familiar with this game)

Pengo - 4-way

Qix - 4-way

Rally-X - 4-way

 

Your're right my WICO link was incorrect, the one you linked would be correct (with a red ball, for a metal panel).  So the reproduction WICOs are sold as 4-ways or 8-ways (not convertible, you have to buy the one you want as the restriction is built into the housing), with lots of different colors of ball knobs (molded to the shaft, and only replaceable as the whole shaft), and available in 3.5" and 4" versions.  This has to do with the overall length of the shaft, from the bottom of the ball, to the bottom of the shaft...at the very bottom of the joystick.  The 3.5" models are normally installed in thin metal panels, and the longer 4" models are installed in thicker wood panels.  The extra length accounts for the extra thickness of the control panel.  With a 3.5" WICO installed into a metal panel CPO, the top of the ball is approximately 2.75" above the panel, which would be about 0.625" - 0.75" taller than what an original Bally (Pac-Man) controller would be.  So you can install a stack of washers (approx. 0.625" - 0.75" thick), or 0.625" - 0.75" long spacers or standoffs between the bottom of the control panel and the top of the joystick base to "drop-mount" the stick, to lower the ball to your liking...assuming you have enough depth for this.  I've done this similar concept on a few of my custom controllers to match original specs when necessary.  The WICO mounting bolt pattern is 2.60" x 3.00" (center-to-center of the holes), which was a standard for a long time back in the day due to WICO.  Obviously you can mount it either of the 2 different 90 degree options, whereas the bolt pattern is 2.6" wide, by 3.0" high, or turn it 90, and then its 3.0" wide, by 2.6" high.  The industry standard back in the day was long side, width-wise, so 3.0" wide and 2.6" high.  But again I've done it both ways, depending on the controller I was building (physical limitations, artwork interference, and the likes).  If mounted directly to the underside of the control panel, the mounting depth of a WICO is approximately 2.25", then obviously deeper if you drop mount it.  

 

Obviously the WICO won't "feel the same" as a Bally, but I can assure you, as it was the "defacto standard" for so many companies back in the day (except for the few who made their own like Bally, Exidy, Nintendo), it is a great joystick.  Obviously so good, and so much demand that Arcade Shop went to the trouble to have them re-manufactured. 

 

The only other installation issue would be with the dust washer, should you choose to "drop-mount" a joystick.  So the large plastic dust washers can be installed on top of the control panel (which will partially cover artwork, and obviously the hole the shaft is coming through), or it can be mounted below the panel (as the base of the joystick has a top recess for this option and was standard back in the day).  If you drop mount the joystick, say 0.625", then the dust washer would be 0.625" below the control panel, not "just" below it as intended, leaving an unsightly hole.  So in addition to your washers/standoffs/spacers used to drop the joystick base, you would need to "raise" the dust washer with a spacer of equal length.  I did this for my Robotron: 2084 controller:

 

 

In this instance, a metal housing which would theoretically call for a 3.5" WICO, but the original cabinet had a wood control panel and used the 4" WICOs.  With the 0.5" longer shaft the "felt" leverage force is different so I drop mounted the 4" joysticks, and raised the dust washers the appropriate amount so that I could use the "arcade cabinet correct" 4" joysticks, with the dust washers properly mounted under the control panel, so that it was exactly as the arcade cabinet was...including the separation spacing.  

 

FYI Arcade Shop doesn't call out shipping costs in your cart, they calculate it when shipped/billed.  For me in Ohio, its usually around $10, and shipping is normally super quick, but with the state of the world right now, I'm not sure of their status.  

 

Happy to help, and let me know if you need anything else or have any other questions.  I'm always happy to talk about hardware.  

 

I think the wico is the same mounting size as the POS. If not, I can just drill holes (wood) and use mounting bolts.  Gonna grab them, I just can not stand getting hung up on corners any longer. I just started playing ladybug last month and broke 200k. I am hoping I can easily beat that if I don't get stuck on every other turn.

btw Van Van Car doesn't seem like a 8way game, it plays like Amidar or pacman. My guess is it is 4way, but I am wrong very often.

 

Thank you!!!!!!!

 I have drooled over your website serveral times.  Your work is amazing!

[doubledown]

Mounting is probably the same.  I just checked my GGG Pac-Pro, (which itself is a modified HAPP Ms. Pac 25th Anniversary, and that is a modified HAPP Super, and that is what yours is a copy of), and it has the standard 3.00" x 2.60" mounting.  One thing to keep in mind too...if you have a wood control panel, you should theoretically get the 4" version, but if you want a lower ball knob (to more closely replicate the Bally Pac-Man joysticks), without having to drop mount the base, you could simply get the 3.5" version.  Also the only difference between the 3.5" & 4" versions is the shaft (with molded ball knob), which is orderable as a replacement part.  So if you weren't sure which way you wanted to go, you could buy the 3.5" stick, plus the 4" shaft and try both...just an option.  

 

Also, one thing I've been telling people about, that I have built controllers for using the WICO sticks...the sticks can feel distinctively stiff, when compared to more modern spring-centered sticks, due to their steel washer/rubber grommet centering piece.  But once you realize that you only need to deflect the stick a very short distance off of center to actuate any direction (like maybe only 1/5 or less of it's total travel distance), you'll realize how sensitive and amazing they are.  

 

You're probably right about Van Van Car...I watched a gameplay video, and I can't imagine how it would be an 8-way, but KLOV has been wrong before...it says Tutankham uses 1 8-way, and 1 2-way, when in reality Tutankham in fact uses 1 4-way, and 1 2-way.  Good luck, and happy gaming!

[Machine]

Thanks doubledown! I just placed the order. I decided to go with the 3.5" version cuz we want the lower pacman feel plus my wife has severe arthritis and I am hoping the lower knob will help her hands.

I'll let ya know when I get them installed. Hopefully we will be playing on them in a week or so.

[doubledown]

Hopefully you'll get them soon!

[scotty]

I got the Dominux 8 from GGG,  These things ROCK!!!  I put two of them in an X-Arcade Tankstick, and OMG, the difference is night and day!!   The one's from Mikes arcade, and the Doinux 8 from GGG are Wico clones.   Wico, X-Arcade, Dominux, Industrias Lorenzo and Happ all use the same bolt pattern, so you will be fine.   I am actually using mine with a 4-way restrictor on it, so they are 4-way sticks.   I have to say...  The are AMAZING!!   Many people complain about the crap Happ knockoffs that X-Gaming uses in the X-Arcade.  Specifically when trying to play a game that wants 4-way sticks like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong.   When I first got the X-Arcade Tankstick, I loved it, but after a while, I started missing turns on Pac-Man and missing ladders on Donkey Kong.  Happy to report that that is no longer the case!!

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by scotty

[Cynicaster]

14 hours ago, scotty said:

I got the Dominux 8 from GGG,  These things ROCK!!!  I put two of them in an X-Arcade Tankstick, and OMG, the difference is night and day!!   The one's from Mikes arcade, and the Doinux 8 from GGG are Wico clones.   Wico, X-Arcade, Dominux, Industrias Lorenzo and Happ all use the same bolt pattern, so you will be fine.   I am actually using mine with a 4-way restrictor on it, so they are 4-way sticks.   I have to say...  The are AMAZING!!   Many people complain about the crap Happ knockoffs that X-Gaming uses in the X-Arcade.  Specifically when trying to play a game that wants 4-way sticks like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong.   When I first got the X-Arcade Tankstick, I loved it, but after a while, I started missing turns on Pac-Man and missing ladders on Donkey Kong.  Happy to report that that is no longer the case!!

 

 

I've often wondered how well the Dominux 8 does in 4-way mode with a restrictor.  I've got a pair of them I use on a Robotron control panel and I think they're pretty awesome.  You definitely need to tweak the leaf switches a bit to your liking, but that just takes a few minutes.  Aside from Robotron, I also really like them for shoot-em-ups.  Very smooth and accurate. 

 

[doubledown]

I've never used one of the Dominux8 joysticks.  From the pictures on their website, their leaf-holders appear to be 3D printed...is that the case on the ones you guys have?  The Pac-Pro joystick I have from GGG uses 3D printed leaf-holders, and one of mine already has a very small de-lamination between 2 layers.  

[Machine]

Got new joysticks installed a few days ago.  At first, I hated them. Then, I remembered back when I had an old pacman machine, I had to adjust the leaf-springs. After spending some time adjusting, they are way better. I went with the shorter sticks. My wife was having a hard time cuz it was too tight so I ordered the longer stick(4" instead of 3.5")  She really like it, I prefer the shorter stick. Aftering installing/adjusting, I crushed a few highscores. Way better!!! 

Thanks doubledown for all your help!

Edited April 4, 2020 by Machine

[doubledown]

Glad you bested a few scores!  I've used both the 3.5" & 4", and I think I can work with either just as well.  I only drop-mount installed the 4" in my metal paneled Robotron: 2084 controller for authenticity.  Out of curiosity, did you adjust the leafs to decrease or increase sensitivity?  

[Machine]

I had to decrease them quite a bit. When I tried to move left or right, it would also make contact with up or down. So I had back them off a lot. They still are sensitive, and I really like them. Thanks for all the help!