FIFTEEN YEARS

[Flojomojo]

On 3/26/2020 at 12:49 PM, zzip said:

I think of current VR as the "Atari 2600 era of VR",  it will only get better, but even then, it's far ahead of where the 2600 started.

I'd call it the Sega Saturn era of VR, mainly because of the arcade-like simplicity of some of the shooter games, and "wow" factor of just having some 3D environments to run in, simple as they may be. And because Pistol Whip totally reminds me of Virtua Cop. 

[ComputerSpaceFan]

24 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

I'd call it the Sega Saturn era of VR

Speaking of Sega and VR, I think you might appreciate this Flojomojo .... 

 

[+GoldenWheels]

21 hours ago, CatPix said:

Also motion controls in't just about flapping a Wiimote in the air.

Try playing a regular FPS/adventure game then play Breath of the Wild.

It's just impossible for Nintendo to remove motion detection from their systems and I think that the next gens console and PC should adopt it. It makes aiming so much more fast, precise and natural it's a given.

Much like how analog controls arrived with 3Dad are impossible to remove now. (unless we replace it with VR.)

Maybe I just don't understand the comparison...My level of control with a mouse in an FPS is insane. And I am not even THAT good at FPSs. And if you don't thnk I am "immersed" in that FPS, tap me on the shoulder while I'm playing. I probably have zoned out the entire world.

 

Do you think you can aim quicker and more accurately with a wii mote/PS move/whatever than I could with a mouse, in an FPS on a PC? Even if you do believe that (and IMO that doesn't pass even smell test one), could you do so for longer than 10-15 minutes before you were tired...and I wasn't? How about 30 minutes? Again I don't understand the comparison so maybe you mean something else. You don't see Zelda and an FPS compared very often!

 

I wasn't even aware Breath HAD motion controls but upon googling the majority opinion seems to be...they suck. Especially for the puzzles.

 

I was bully for the Wii, and I have SOME love for my PSVR...but IMO the absolute best VR experience that has been so far is Doom VFR, with "jump" movement turned off (so it plays like an actual FPS but some people get sick that way), and a controller (And btw, that game is amazing that way). 

 

I think eventually, VR will be available in something as lightweight as a pair of heavy-ish sunglasses. But I think even at that point, 99% of all players will desire a controller to play the game with for the ease of use and accuracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zzip]

25 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

Do you think you can aim quicker and more accurately with a wii mote/PS move/whatever than I could with a mouse, in an FPS on a PC? Even if you do believe that (and IMO that doesn't pass even smell test one), could you do so for longer than 10-15 minutes before you were tired...and I wasn't? How about 30 minutes? Again I don't understand the comparison so maybe you mean something else. You don't see Zelda and an FPS compared very often!

The "PS Aim" controller in VR is like holding an actual gun and aiming with it.   More accurate and immersive than controller or mouse, IMO

[+GoldenWheels]

15 hours ago, zzip said:

The "PS Aim" controller in VR is like holding an actual gun and aiming with it.   More accurate and immersive than controller or mouse, IMO

Well I own it....I can see if the movement and the feeling of "holding and aiming a gun" making it more immersive for you. I can't see how anyone would think that thing is more accurate than a mouse though. At all. You're slower, and I have to think hitboxes in Aim games are, lets say...ahem, built to be forgiving (as they are in ALL console games, and again I specified PC, hell don't console FPSs still use auto aim in a lot of cases? Accuracy isn't even something they really try to attempt!).

 

And again...I'll be just as accurate after 45 minutes of play. Your arms will be getting tired. Who is more accurate then? And good god if you're using the PSVR helmet and getting bound up in cords as you move, JMO but that tends to take me TOTALLY OUT of the experience (I really enjoy a fantasy boxing game I have for PSVR....but the bulkiness of the unit and the cords keeps it from being anything TO real. My best immersion has either been Doom VFR, or Club Drive with a Fantaek.)

[BassGuitari]

22 hours ago, mbd30 said:

 

The NES felt that old in 2000 because there was a dramatic change in technology and popular genres over those 15 years. Not as much of a leap from PS3 to PS4.

 

 

That could also be a contributing factor in the classic gaming community more or less making the 15-year mark the milestone for "retro" around that time. It definitely looked retro. Meanwhile I kind of have to be reminded that Half-Life 2 came out 15 years ago.

 

Speaking of Half-Life, if you'd asked me in 2000 what I thought gaming would be like in 2020, Half-Life: Alyx probably comes the closest to whatever I might have said.

[digdugnate]

17 hours ago, BassGuitari said:

 

That could also be a contributing factor in the classic gaming community more or less making the 15-year mark the milestone for "retro" around that time. It definitely looked retro. Meanwhile I kind of have to be reminded that Half-Life 2 came out 15 years ago.

 

Speaking of Half-Life, if you'd asked me in 2000 what I thought gaming would be like in 2020, Half-Life: Alyx probably comes the closest to whatever I might have said.

I created my Steam account about the same time I bought The Orange Box- pretty crafty on Valve's part!  lol

 

Veering off, its hard to believe as well that WoW has been around for 16  years.  I guess the older you get, the more time distorts. 

[CatPix]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:49 PM, GoldenWheels said:

Maybe I just don't understand the comparison...My level of control with a mouse in an FPS is insane. And I am not even THAT good at FPSs. And if you don't thnk I am "immersed" in that FPS, tap me on the shoulder while I'm playing. I probably have zoned out the entire world.

 

I think eventually, VR will be available in something as lightweight as a pair of heavy-ish sunglasses. But I think even at that point, 99% of all players will desire a controller to play the game with for the ease of use and accuracy.

I was thinking console since most chatting here is usually about consoles. Also the generation talk is more important in consoles than in PC.

I agree that the motion controls in BOTW are bad in puzzles, I assume because they ad to account for the Wiimote and Mablette (Wii U version) and the Joy-con and gamepad Pro (Switch). I was specifically talking about aiming, not puzzles.

 

PC and console are different breeds, there aren't really "generation" in PC gaming and I always found that PC gamers around me, even those that don't define themselves as retrogamers, are much more susceptible to play older games than console gamers.

Mostly because PC Gaming have a more smoothed out progression gameplay and graphics wise, and also because you can usually play more games on your current PC where console gaming require to own different systems or hope your game is compatible with the next gen. Or you pay to get your game again in virtual console form.

 

[digdugnate]

53 minutes ago, CatPix said:

I was thinking console since most chatting here is usually about consoles. Also the generation talk is more important in consoles than in PC.

I agree that the motion controls in BOTW are bad in puzzles, I assume because they ad to account for the Wiimote and Mablette (Wii U version) and the Joy-con and gamepad Pro (Switch). I was specifically talking about aiming, not puzzles.

 

PC and console are different breeds, there aren't really "generation" in PC gaming and I always found that PC gamers around me, even those that don't define themselves as retrogamers, are much more susceptible to play older games than console gamers.

Mostly because PC Gaming have a more smoothed out progression gameplay and graphics wise, and also because you can usually play more games on your current PC where console gaming require to own different systems or hope your game is compatible with the next gen. Or you pay to get your game again in virtual console form.

 

did i complain about this yet? I don't remember, lol.

 

The BotW puzzles where you're using motion controls to manipulate the ball in three dimensions drove me nuts- a couple of them I had to have my son do.  I remembered playing those labryinth-type puzzles as a kid and it just makes me think of those.

[zzip]

On 3/28/2020 at 7:38 AM, GoldenWheels said:

Well I own it....I can see if the movement and the feeling of "holding and aiming a gun" making it more immersive for you. I can't see how anyone would think that thing is more accurate than a mouse though. At all. You're slower, and I have to think hitboxes in Aim games are, lets say...ahem, built to be forgiving (as they are in ALL console games, and again I specified PC, hell don't console FPSs still use auto aim in a lot of cases? Accuracy isn't even something they really try to attempt!).

 

And again...I'll be just as accurate after 45 minutes of play. Your arms will be getting tired. Who is more accurate then? And good god if you're using the PSVR helmet and getting bound up in cords as you move, JMO but that tends to take me TOTALLY OUT of the experience (I really enjoy a fantasy boxing game I have for PSVR....but the bulkiness of the unit and the cords keeps it from being anything TO real. My best immersion has either been Doom VFR, or Club Drive with a Fantaek.)

I've always found a mouse awkward to use for anything other than point-and-click games, so I personally can't aim better with a mouse.

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

I've always found a mouse awkward to use for anything other than point-and-click games

And I've always found a keyboard awkward to use for anything other than text parser adventure games or Typing of the Dead. But for some reason the master race thinks it's perfect for every game.

[+GoldenWheels]

 

22 hours ago, zzip said:

I've always found a mouse awkward to use for anything other than point-and-click games, so I personally can't aim better with a mouse.

 

Hey, there are guys who could beat me at Soul Calibur using the DC fishing controller. Personal preference is a real thing and I respect it 100%. But master race joke lines aside (I play and own just about everything)I think one side has a good deal more anecdotal evidence than another vis a vis which is a more accurate control method (forgetting consoles helping you aim in many games in the first place, I haven't done a console FPS in a while but I assume that is still a thing...).

 

I wonder how you'd do a truly scientific test that accounts for player skill regarding accuracy via differing control methods....I do try all the new controls each generation. But I always end up with a piece of plastic in my hands while eschewing all motion controls.

 

Also...I'd never play Madden with a keyboard...that's just WRONG....?

 

[zzip]

19 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And I've always found a keyboard awkward to use for anything other than text parser adventure games or Typing of the Dead. But for some reason the master race thinks it's perfect for every game.

I can deal with using the keyboard arrow keys,   but this W-A-S-D scheme that games use these days just messes me up.    I like to find the controls without having to look, so it's easy to feel the arrow keys since they are separate, but I often find myself hitting the wrong keys when using WASD.   For any PC action game, I hook up an Xbox controller instead.

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

I can deal with using the keyboard arrow keys,   but this W-A-S-D scheme that games use these days just messes me up.    I like to find the controls without having to look, so it's easy to feel the arrow keys since they are separate, but I often find myself hitting the wrong keys when using WASD.   For any PC action game, I hook up an Xbox controller instead.

Everytime I need to run in panic, like in Amnesia for instance, since I have to reach the run key with my little finger, I always end up pressing Q instead of W and bend left like an idiot while a monster beats me up. ?

[MrMaddog]

To me, using the mouse in FPS games is more like turning your head than actual point & click and offers finer control than analog thumbsticks.  Oh I can play FPS games with an Xbox controller but not stuff that requires real fine precision like tactial shooters.

 

For earlier games like Doom, I used a gamepad because you didn't had to worry about looking up or down.  Plus I had one that could map keystrokes to each button as well (like strafing with the shoulder buttons aka SNES Doom).

 

Was able to play Quake the same way though I did occasionally use the mouse, with the mouselook pressed down, to snipe with the rocket launcher.  Once I moved on to Unreal...forget using the gamepad!  I had to use the mouse & KB especially for online matches.

 

Throughout the 2000's I used arrow keys instead of WASD and remapped the surrounding keys for other functions.  That was fine till the 2010's when FPS console ports had every keystroke standardized and it was a PITA to change every single thing, so I adapted to using WADS now.

 

I also agree that using WASD & mouse for 3rd party console games make no sense because you need the 360 degree control of your character.  And boy was I annoyed at the way South Park: Stick of Truth used WASD for movement even though it "looked and played" like a 2D RPG...

 

[Video]

Yeah fps on consoles have auto aim still. sigh.

Interestingly, the reason for autoaim, aim assist, or whatever it is called, is the MYTH that an analog stick isn't accurate. That's bulls### as I used to be great at fps on consoles, up till about xbox, which was the first I'm aware of that natively did aim assist. I thought in my old age maybe I just sucked at fps...that was until ghost for 360, which had the option to turn that off. It's severely toned down but still there, but holy shit! The difference was night and day. That was the first (and last) fps t could actually beat my friends at reliably. And their the "no life, plays fps for 16+ hours a day" type that had far surpassed me more than a decade earlier. All because I was able to tone down the baby sitter.

 

Not saying people that play with or prefer a mouse aren't better with that, just that it's a preference thing based on what your used to.

 

As to the original topic, eh, if you keep the next gen on a 1080p tv, it'll be a marginal upgrade at best, but if you get a 4k, any advantage in greater processing will be more than offset by the increased resolution eating the extra processing. Luckily, when 8k comes out common, that will be the end of "resolution" not saying higher resolution sets can't be made, but 8k (32 million pixels) exceedes the resolution of the human eye (roughly 22 million pixels) so there will be no advantage to higher resolutions. Then we can get back to 3d displays again. My last set died, and I was dismayed to find I CAN'T replace it now:( and tbh, 3d does a lot more for me than hd does.

[bluejay]

Yeah, the late 20th century is when technology started jumping a lot. In 1992, the Commodore PET was an outdated heap of junk that was completely useless. The Atari 2600 was also way to old but somehow still being produced. Now, a mid 2000s IBM Thinkpad can pretty much run Windows 10 and do stuff(albeit it would be pretty slow, but it's a very subtle difference compared to the Commodore PET and the Amiga 4000), and Gran Turismo 5 doesn't look much different from Gran Turismo 6. I think computer evolution is getting slower and slower as it becomes closer and closer to reality. It's like a parabola. The delta gets more and more subtle as the graph goes on, until it gets to the point where it's so close to reality but not quite there yet.