XL keyboard technical drawings

[ivop]

Hi,

 

I was wondering if there are any technical drawings of the 600XL/800XL keyboards? Not just the keyboard matrix, but things like keycap sizes, spacing, et cetera. I have looked around, but couldn't find any.

 

Or perhaps somebody with a caliper (which is still on my to buy list ) could make some measurements?

 

Regards,

Ivo

 

[jamm]

I'd like to find this, too.  I do have calipers and an 800 and 800XL I could use if you gave me a list of what you want measured.

 

[+ZuluGula]

Are you trying to make a mechanical keyboard for XL?

 

You could ask @Duddie, he made new membranes for XE and XL computers,  so he should have the measurements you want. 

[Rybags]

XL has several keyboard types so I doubt it.  Likely there were drawings but many/most? keyboards were externally sourced so mightn't have been stored in Atari's archives of which we have lots of released documents.

[ivop]

20 hours ago, ZuluGula said:

Are you trying to make a mechanical keyboard for XL?

Is it that obvious?

 

I have had this idea for years, but building one with 57 Cherry MX switches with custom keycaps would set you back $200,= easily. Now I have this new idea, which reuses the original keycaps! Now we're talking maybe $50,= or less.

 

The measurement I would like to have are:

 

A regular keycap (q, w, e, etc)

ESC

TAB

SHIFT-L

RETURN

CAPS

SHIFT-R

SACEBAR

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[jamm]

This is why I was researching the font used on the Atari keyboards a few weeks back!  ?

 

I'll get the measurements later today if no one else beats me to it.

[jamm]

Ok, here's what I have on this particular 800XL:

• This is the ALPS keyboard 12KF061B
• The keycaps are wider at the base than at the tops (about 5mm wider in both width and height)
• The keycaps are angled (taller towards the user than away from the user -- around 9.4mm vs 7.6mm) but all key rows are the same angle
• I've included scans of all the unique key sizes at 1200DPI.  This will let you measure for yourself using an image editor.  I used Photoshop and confirmed with calipers.
  • Note that the scans of the wide keys are distorted by the stabilizer supports. Measure the side away from the supports only.
• All keys are 18.1mm in height at the base ("height" = the Y axis on a 2-dimensional plane)
• Regular keys are also 18.1mm wide at the base, so they're square
  • Tops of regular keys are around 13.1mm in each direction - around 5mm narrower than at the bases
• Caps Lock and Escape:
  • 23mm wide at the base
  • 17.8mm wide at the top
• Tab and Right-Shift:
  • 32mm wide at the base
  • 27.3mm wide at the top
• Control:
  • 36.8mm wide at the base
  • 32mm wide at the top
• Left-Shift:
  • 46.3mm wide at the base
  • 41.4mm wide at the top
• Return:
  • 27.4mm wide at the base
  • 22.4mm wide at the top
• Space:
  • 171mm wide at the base

 

When I get more time I'll compare this to the keys on my 800 and 1200XL.

[+ZuluGula]

I'm working on the same thing, actually XE keyboard but it has identical layout to XL one. The keycaps has standard sizes. My plan is to use MX compatible switches from AliExpress, they are around $1 for 10, so whole keyboard would be around $7. Keycaps also from China and function keys would be 3D printed with MX mount or resin casted. I have done schematic for XE keyboard in KiCad, right now i need to make the PCB. I also want to use FFC connector on the keyboard PCB and smaller ribbon cable with adapter board on the computer side.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by ZuluGula

[ivop]

@jamm Thanks for all the measurements!  I'm basing this on stackpole keycaps, but I have both keyboards and the keysizes seem the same.

 

An image says more than thousand words, so here's my "idea" :

 

 

Basically, it's a 12x12x4.5mm tactile switch with an original keycap glued to it (they are not glued on the image btw). I love it how the action feels.

 

Edit: it also works with the console keys, but might need a slightly higher or lower switch. There are several heights available from 4.3mm up to way too high.

Edited March 30, 2020 by ivop

[jamm]

@ivop I'm curious what your idea for an entire keyboard like this would look like.  Would you put put 57 of the 12x12x4.5 switches on a PCB?

[ivop]

13 minutes ago, jamm said:

@ivop I'm curious what your idea for an entire keyboard like this would look like.  Would you put put 57 of the 12x12x4.5 switches on a PCB?

Yes, and five for the console keys. Not sure if it's going to be one PCB for all keys, which would lack support underneath the console keys, or two separate PCBs, which might be tricky signal wise, because HELP is in the keymatrix, but luckily none of the other console keys. Have to think about it. Two PCBs is easier in other ways, like having the console keys aligned properly, including the LED, and not worry about the distance between the keyboard keys and the console keys.

 

[+ZuluGula]

@ivop, recently I got some of those switches and they require a lot of force, I would not consider them for typing more than a few commands. They also are quite wobbly and the kay caps going to look crooked in the keyboard. 

You can see it here https://hackaday.io/project/169711/gallery#1ee3ddf1f69e4b3ab151874f84463d68

Like I said before, you can buy MX compatible switches very cheap
https://a.aliexpress.com/_dSZUUfe same goes for key caps. The only problem would be how to get Atari specific characters and symbols on those keycaps. 

[ivop]

@ZuluGula, what you call the only problem to get the Atari specific characters and symbols, is what I call the main problem. I want to reuse the original keycaps of the keyboard one is going to fix. Perhaps they fit or could be glued to MX compatible switches, too?

 

About the force required, I actually like that. I also love old teletype keyboards. But I don't like the XE and ST keyboards. Also needs a lot of force, but they don't click. They are mushy. But I guess this is something subjective. Some people even like the Apple butterfly keyboards

 

The misaligned keys you see on that hackaday project are IMHO because it wasn't thought through enough before execution. I can easily 3D print a "guide" in which I can put the switch, put a drop of superglue on it, and let the key slide on top of it, perfectly aligned.

 

Anyway, this is just an experiment which is not too expensive to try IMHO If it fails, so be it.

 

[jamm]

Here's another possibility:

The Mitsumi Atari keycaps are *almost* compatible with standard Cherry MX switches.  They are very slightly too large.  There are several ways you could address this (glue, putty, etc.) and they you'd be able to use standard switches with Atari keycaps.

[jamm]

I just checked and realized there's another small problem with using standard MX switches: the corners of the Mitsumi Atari keycaps would have to be shaved, otherwise they key cannot be pressed all the way down because the corners hit the body of the MX switch.  Still, it'd be an interesting thing to try.  I don't have extra keys to try this with, though.

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by jamm

[_The Doctor__]

didn't someone make 3d printed adapters for our keys to some decent switches?

  I don't like the idea of destroying keys being glued to those typically failure prone switches the center circle lacks the fortitude to hold key nice...  I like the idea, but dislike the switch chosen in ivops post for those reasons....

Edited March 31, 2020 by _The Doctor__

[+ZuluGula]

21 hours ago, ivop said:

ZuluGula, what you call the only problem to get the Atari specific characters and symbols, is what I call the main problem. I want to reuse the original keycaps of the keyboard one is going to fix. Perhaps they fit or could be glued to MX compatible switches, too?

I understand that it's an expert, but just from reading your process description it seems like a lot of work and it doesn't save alot of money. You will destroy original keyboard, which probably could be saved, you have to glue keycaps and 3D print a guide. 

It's possible to get anything on a blank keycap even at home. One way is presented in this video:

 

Since you own 3D printer, you could attach small laser to it and print on your new blank keycaps. I think you can even get a white laser toner and print on black keycaps to match XL keyboard. You could create a jig to print on multiple keycaps at once and soon you will be producing multiple new Atari keyboards in no time. 

[ivop]

7 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

didn't someone make 3d printed adapters for our keys to some decent switches?

Hmm, there's an idea. Do you have a link?

 

50 minutes ago, ZuluGula said:

I understand that it's an expert, but just from reading your process description it seems like a lot of work and it doesn't save alot of money. You will destroy original keyboard, which probably could be saved, you have to glue keycaps and 3D print a guide. 

It's possible to get anything on a blank keycap even at home. One way is presented in this video:

[video]

Since you own 3D printer, you could attach small laser to it and print on your new blank keycaps. I think you can even get a white laser toner and print on black keycaps to match XL keyboard. You could create a jig to print on multiple keycaps at once and soon you will be producing multiple new Atari keyboards in no time. 

I have been thinking about laser etching and cutting. Looks nice, but I don't have the funds for it right now. I also want a CNC machine, et cetera

 

As for destroying an original keyboard, except for the mylar, the plastic that holds the springs and the springs itself, everything is reused.

 

Perhaps I can also 3D print something that fits the key and can be glued to whatever switch separately. That way, the key is not permanently glued or damaged.

 

Nothing is set in stone yet. I'm just experimenting with stuff. I'll see to get a bunch of them MX knock-offs, too, and see what's possible.

 

Thanks for all the input. That's exactly what I was hoping for, in order to find an affordable way we can refurbish our broken keyboards!

 

 

[+Spancho]

In someone with designer skills could design the fonts needed like this example from the c64.

keycaps could be ordered or even a complete keyboard to connect to the 1088xel.

 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/samples/commodore-vic20

 

I found only this Atari font but that one does not have the special graphic font:

https://www.onlinewebfonts.com/download/14c9d053d854452f5b8dda84e4c32273

 

 

 

[jamm]

I'm surprised that, despite being much taller than the ALPS keycaps, the Mitsumi 1200XL keycaps are the same size at their bases.  The only differences are the two shift keys: they both grow on the 1200XL (left: 51mm, right: 46.1mm) to make up for the lack of the inverse/"Atari" key which has been moved next to the console keys.

 

I love the shape and feel of these.  The smooth, texture-less finish and curved tops look very classy to me.

 

I'm pretty sure the 800 Mitsumi keycaps are identical to the 1200XL (with the exception of the shift keys), but I haven't verified.

 

[ivop]

@jamm Thank you very much for these high quality pictures!

 

Now for some less quality pictures   I have decided to base my new PCBs on this keyboard:

 

 

It's from a 1983 600XL. Fun fact: the keyswitches are made by Cherry!!

 

I have also acquired some digital calipers. Only €5,= at the Action! in The Netherlands. It's plastic crap, but it seems accurate enough for my needs:

 

 

I'll probably use Cherry switches knock-offs and a small 3D printed circle with a cross in it to heighten the keycap slightly. The cross itself seems to have not changed its dimensions in the last 37 years

 

For Stackpole keycaps, I'm considering a 3D printed cube with a similar cross cut-out.

 

Well, I have to see how it all fits in the end. And I have not ruled out a version with the tactile switches I mentioned earlier Maybe both could be made.

 

Edit: I only just noticed the keyboard PCB is single sided. All that spaghetti routing could be severely simplified.

 

Edit2: And for connection to the motherboard I'm considering normal, probably angled, pinheaders with (flat)cables and an adapter board that does pinheaders to inverse edge connecter (what's that called anyway? ). Thickness probably 0.8mm like @tf_hh used here.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by ivop

[manterola]

Type II keyboard? show us the control and O keys...  IF it is I must say that is my favorite keyboard. The problem is that kind of keyboard are great and functioning most of time.  Instead the more common Stackpole (Type iv), is not great and sometimes need a new mylar. It would be great to have a solution for those. I mean, I don't mind messing with a type iv (destroying it) to get a switches based keyboard. However, destroying a type ii is another thing

[ivop]

Of course you are not supposed to destroy a perfectly fine keyboard

 

This keyboard has the outlined CONTROL key, i.e. with a rectangle drawn around it, instead of inverse video.

 

My goal is to design a PCB that can serve multiple purposes. My upper left picture shows the current PCB with three broken switches that are very hard to find replacements for. Replacing the whole PCB, install new switches, perhaps spacers and install the original keycaps.

 

Of course, if you have a donor keyboard you use to repair several other keyboards, you could just install three '83 cherry switches and have it original. That would be preferable.

 

As for the stackpole keyboards, the idea is that you completely remove the mylars and plastic crap and all and install the new PCBs directly to the metal with rubber bands/spacers between them to avoid shorts. The '83 keyboards also have rubber bands on the back, even though there's no metal there, but perhaps they were afraid somebody banging too hard on the keyboard and short it to the shielding?? The stackpole keycaps need a converter for the switches, which can be 3D printed. Or hotglue   Haha, no...

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by ivop
so many typos ;)

[jamm]

1 hour ago, ivop said:

 

I think you have the same plastic crap calipers that I do, with maybe a slightly different plastic crap case! 

 

The funny thing is I can think of good reasons to approach this problem from from two different sides:  In one case, it would be great to have a way to replace the Mylar sheets and other pieces in the Ataris that are prone to breaking over time and difficult to replace.  From the other side - I, and I think others, would also like to have a regular PC keyboard that looks and/or feels like an Atari keyboard - either to use with an Atari with PS/2 capability thanks to @mytek's adapter, or to use with a modern PC to feed our nostalgia. 

 

Either way - some kind of an adapter that could fit existing Atari keycaps on common Cherry stems would be great.  (I think custom, modern Cherry-compatible keycaps that look like A8 keycaps would be the ultimate solution, but a pretty expensive one needing at least 100 people to buy in on the project.)  And a replacement for the A8 keyboard PCBs would also be very welcome. 

 

There are several reasonable project possibilities here.

 

(And, as you show above, somewhere around 18.1mm seems to be the average width of all the A8 keycaps.)

Edited April 9, 2020 by jamm

[ivop]

My 3D printer wouldn't be up to it (only 12x12x12cm printing space), but I suppose one could print a housing similar to the 600XL, but way smaller, just to fit this new keyboard PCB I envision, and a small AVR/PIC board that reads the keyboard matrix and sends out PS/2 signals (loads of libraries for that online). @mytek's adapter will convert it back to Pokey style

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by ivop