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XL keyboard technical drawings


ivop

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53 minutes ago, jamm said:

 

Either way - some kind of an adapter that could fit existing Atari keycaps on common Cherry stems would be great.  (I think custom, modern Cherry-compatible keycaps that look like A8 keycaps would be the ultimate solution, but a pretty expensive one needing at least 100 people to buy in on the project.)  And a replacement for the A8 keyboard PCBs would also be very welcome. 

 

I would definitely co-financing a project with the goal to have an A8 keyboard PCB hosting modern keycaps in our beloved A8 style.

Since I have no design skills I can only offer additional financial support to help kick-off such an endeavor.

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57 minutes ago, Spancho said:

I would definitely co-financing a project with the goal to have an A8 keyboard PCB hosting modern keycaps in our beloved A8 style.

Since I have no design skills I can only offer additional financial support to help kick-off such an endeavor.

100 hundred keycap sets target mentioned previously looks doeble.

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I've looked at the process of getting a custom keycap set made, as is done frequently and successfully by the mechanical keyboard community.  We might be able to get enough people start a group buy.  One challenge is that the potential pool of buyers would be split between those who'd want an 800/XL-style set and those who'd want an XE-style set.  Regardless, it takes a lot of time and effort to set that in motion, but I've been studying the process.

 

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I didn't include pictures of the 1200XL's silver "console" keys before, so here they are.  I think the particular construction is unique to the 1200/1400/1450XL.  They use the same Mitsumi key stems as all the other keys on the keyboard - the only difference being a stiffer spring.  I haven't taken apart the console keys on a 600/800XL, but they don't feel as sturdy as these do.

 

All of these are perfect 18.0mm squares.

 

 

1200xlconsole1.jpg

1200xlconsole2.jpg

1200xlconsole3.jpg

Edited by jamm
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Now that was quick. Only nine days!!

 

switches.thumb.png.4e4cee60f26c895af208d2d485e92376.png

 

As expected, our Atari keycaps don't fit over the base of the switch. Good thing is, they are 3mm lower than the Cherry switches on the AWC keyboard, so a 3D printed adapter might work. Same for the stackpole keycaps, which will need an adapter anyway. Time to dust of my 3D printer and recallibrate. Now that I have calipers, I can do that beter.

 

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That's what I'm picturing as a potential problem: if you make 3D, FDM-printed parts that provide a socket for a standard Cherry MX key stem, it'll be difficult at best to get in that socket and manually do any clean up work, so it's going to have to be a good fit right off the printer.

Edited by jamm
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More good news. I took one of those new switches apart, and the cross indeed still fits a 37 year old keycap:

 

cross-fits.thumb.png.6807661c1079fe4b2cd2e1bee5aa290d.png

 

As for 3D printing capabilities, I think this is fairly straight forward. It's just a box with a cross cut-out and a new cross sticking out at the top to fit the keycap. If properly callibrated and enough (but not too much) tension on the belts, I think my 3D printer could manage it.

 

 

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Update!

 

First the good news. My 3D printer still works after a year under a towel.

 

Then the bad news :) Printing very small parts is hard. Not because of precision, but because of cooling problems. The layers are so small, even with a good fan, they don't cool enough. Lowered printing temperature to absolute minimum to get enough bonding, still too hot. Printing a cross that fits a cherry key cap is out of the question so far.

 

But, printing cubes that fit a stackpole keycap is way easier. At my best settings so far, the results are promising!

 

As for cherry keycaps, I discovered you can sacrifice one knock-off switch, break off all the excess material of the plunger, file it down a little, takes 60s, and glue it on top of another switch :)

 

adapters1.png.e036943da3d3fb52602976dfcc6cfebf.png

 

 

Left the heightened switch, middle with stackpole adapter, right a stackpole keycap with adapter.

 

That's it for today, but tomorrow I'm going to try several other ways to reduce the heating problem of small parts. Things to try: print a much larger object at the same time, or add layer change G-code to up the nozzle for 5s after each layer, or put a big freakin' fan beside it, et cetera :)

 

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9 hours ago, ivop said:

Then the bad news :) Printing very small parts is hard. Not because of precision, but because of cooling problems. The layers are so small, even with a good fan, they don't cool enough. Lowered printing temperature to absolute minimum to get enough bonding, still too hot. Printing a cross that fits a cherry key cap is out of the question so far.

You could try printing multiples of the same part (or add anything else to the print bed) to allow each part to cool before starting the next layer. I had this problem when printing tiny buttons for the FujiNet shell. Printing 30 at a time instead of just a few made all the difference.

 

I had some success printing keycap adapters for Kailh Choc switches while looking at making a new 400 keyboard 

 

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I tried the following layer change G-code first:

G91 ; relative mode
G1 Z4 ; move up
G4 P5000 ; wait 5000ms (5 seconds)
G1 Z-4 ; move down
G90 ; back to absolute mode

I included it for completeness. Somebody might benefit from it, but in my case it was an ooze fest :)

 

Next, printing another large object. Instead of that, I decided to go Mozzwald's route and print nine of the same adapter :)

 

Had some first layer bonding problems because I forgot to up the temperature again after previous experiments. Some fell over or lost a leg :)  But four ended up quite perfect! Better than expected and if print the first layer somewhat hotter, have decent bonding glue applied, it might just work :) Here's printed at 180 degrees C from the get go. Should probably be 190 for first layer and 185 for the rest.

 

 

newadapters.thumb.png.725d242d3fe29b32be991c1be429abe2.png

 

From left to right:

 

- switch

- switch with adapter

- stackpole keycap with adapter

- all of them together (with switch behind it to keep it upright for the foto :) )

- same, but held up in the air. It just sticks, without glue.

 

I call it a day.

 

 

 

Edited by ivop
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On 4/21/2020 at 7:47 PM, jamm said:

Looks promising!  I wonder how well something like an Elegoo Mars would handle those little prints.

 

Probably very good. It's just cubes stacked together. No fancy curves and details. Seems MSLA printers are the go to printers for D&D board game players that print their own figurines with lots of details.

 

When I started 3D printing, they were just too expensive. Now they seem to have dropped to $250-$350, which might be affordable. But downsides are:

 

- The resin is harmful. You have to take very good precautions when working with it. It's not toxic per sé, so you don't feel the immediate effects like puking, but it messes with your immune system. Especially now, not a good idea.

- It smells badly and the fumes while printing have the same effect as above, plus they are harmful for your lungs and throat. Especially now, not a good idea :)

- After printing you have to wash them off with IPA (alcohol). The resulting fluid is toxic waste and cannot be flushed through the toilet.

- You can print with bio resins that can be washed with water, but the printing results are sub-par compared to "proper" resin and not much better than FDM printers.

 

Still, I didn't know the prices had dropped that dramatically. I have an urge to suppress right now, to just not buy it yet :D I could print on the balcony while I'm inside. And have all my plants drop dead ;)

Edited by ivop
typo
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35 minutes ago, ivop said:

Still, I didn't know the prices had dropped that dramatically. I have an urge to suppress right now, to just not buy it yet :D I could print on the balcony while I'm inside. And have all my plants drop dead ;)

Yes, exactly - they've gotten so cheap and seemingly reliable lately that the temptation is pretty high.  I've been looking at recent Youtube videos on the subject and just trying to satiate my interest that way.  And plants are cheap!

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3 hours ago, jamm said:

Yes, exactly - they've gotten so cheap and seemingly reliable lately that the temptation is pretty high.  I've been looking at recent Youtube videos on the subject and just trying to satiate my interest that way.  And plants are cheap!

LOL, yeah, most plants are cheap. But some have an emotional value, and I'd rather not have them die.

 

I'm running a Bonsai experiment with cuttings of a few Canadian Poplars that used to grow around my apartment building. They were older than I am and I "knew" them from the late seventies when my grand parents lived in this same neighbourhood. They were cut down last year because they were prone to falling down during heavy wind. Now I'm in the second year with three Bonsais, two with the top cut out and one still growing higher. They all survived winter and grew a nice new canopy already, with cute small leaves ;)

 

Then there's my yearly poppies. When my mom died, one of the funeral flowers I kept was a big dried out poppy. Next March, I planted the seeds, they grew and flowered again, and I acquired seed. Rinse and repeat. Have been doing so ever since. Don't want them to die either ?

 

Well, I don't think my plants would drop dead for real, but for now, I'll stick with my FDM printer. And watch YouTube videos of cool tech I can't afford at the moment :)

 

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Daily update ;)

 

2ndtry-img1.png.ae6b55dc2efaeb4b675648f3182a1e34.png

 

2ndtry-img2.thumb.png.33c24a795dbde7dd5de5082f4b63361f.png

 

Improved the model by increasing the size of the cube on top. Much better grip on the stackpole keycap!

 

Used better print settings. Yesterday, four out of nine were acceptable. Today, eight out of nine are near perfect :)  (front left is b0rked)

 

Edit: perhaps I should switch colors of filament, just for the sake of photos. Black on white is really hard to photograph :) Considering the current quality, I might reconsider printing crosses on top instead of cubes, too, which'll fit AWC and ALP keycaps, i.e. 37 year old cherry caps.

 

Edited by ivop
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Daily update:

 

I tried printing crosses instead of cubes in order to also facilitate AWC/ALP keycaps. Six of nine came out ok (sorry, not seven), but not as good as the cubes from yesterday. Probably need to print 16 or 25 at the same time, because the crosses are way smaller.

 

 

cherryheightener1.png.c97aaea4479955bc9ecea85adf0707a5.png

 

cherryheightener2.thumb.png.d795a4bb7e585b6464c6e2c5550df89a.png

 

But there's a but. They are a lot more brittle then the cube variant for stackpoles. I could not reliably remove them again from the keycap. They come apart from the switch quite easily, but not from the keycap. Only two survived, which are the two on the first picture. Yeah, should have taken pictures in reverse order :)

 

Another downside is that they are more wobbly. With the stackpole adapters, the wobbliness is solely due to the switch, which can probably improved upon by using real Cherry switches ;) But with these keycaps, the adapter is also part of the problem.

 

I thought it'd be nice if the existing PCB keyboards could also benefit from this project. Maybe they can, but not with a two bit 3D printer and knock-off cherry switches, me thinks ;) But the main goal of this project is to replace/improve the stackpole/mylar keyboards, and I'm more and more convinced that it might be possible and not too expensive.

 

Tomorrow is my day off and I'll be celebrating that I forgot that I was 16384 days old just a little over one and a half month ago :D

 

 

Edit: just got this idea. Perhaps if I still print a cube on top, probably a bigger one, have a tubular cut-out with a cross standing up inside. That would totally encapsulate the keycap receptor and might improve the stability and decrease wobbliness. If the cube has to be bigger than the part below, I might have to print it upside down, but still no problems and no supports needed. It's all basic geometric shapes. Nothing fancy.

 

Edited by ivop
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Yesterday, I did something very, very, very stupid. I took three of the keycaps with adapters and switches along with me to show it IRL to somebody else. 10 feet distance and all. We had a couple of drinks and snacks sitting in the field, but when I got home, one of the keys was missing :sad: Somehow I lost it. Maybe when I pulled a plastic bag out of my backpack to sit on. Maybe when I pulled out my jacket when it got a little cold. Who knows. When I noticed I lost one, it was already dark, but I went back to the place anyway. Looked around at the two places we had been with a flashlight :).  But I didn't find anything. Today, by daylight, I went back again, but no keycap to be found.

 

Well, stackpole keycaps are not expensive, but it was the Inverse Video key of the first Atari I ever owned in 1985. And as you might have read earlier in this thread, I attach emotional value to something quite easily :)

 

 

Edited by ivop
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