Using 2 SD cards with an Ultrasatan

[+DarkLord]

Okay, is there a very clear, well defined guide for setting up

-2- SD cards for the Ultrasatan.

 

I've been playing around with my internal US and have failed

to get 2 working correctly together.

 

I've successfully setup a handful of 2 and 4 gig SD cards by

themselves, using HDDriver v11.01.

 

With my Mega STe's hard drive bay open, and the internal US

sitting with Lothareks' emblem *up*, I've been using the left

hand slot. Works fine, as I said no problems with any single

card. When I put another card into the right hand slot though,

I can't ever get HDDriver to recognize it. The US does flash

the right hand red LED once when I put the card in. 

 

I tried just booting up from floppy with HDDriver and the 2

gig card in the left hand slot, then set it up with 4 >500 meg

partitions, then restarted with the 4 gig card in the left slot

and the 2 gig card in the right slot but it still wasn't shown.

 

Putting that 2 gig card in the left slot and booting up without

the 4 gig card does show up. Booting up with the 2 gig card

in the left slot and the 4 gig card in the right slot gives 3-4

bombs, requiring a physical reset.

 

Any and all help appreciated. As I mentioned at the start, if

there is a guide somewhere online, please point me to it and

I'll go from there.

 

Thanks all.

 

[swatcop]

@DarkLord this is probably a dumb question but did you select "Options" > Install Devices with both SD cards in the US?

 

The other partitions should show up after selecting that.

[+DarkLord]

There are no dumb questions. 

 

Seriously, yep, I did that.

 

Some more (probably) dumb questions:

 

Did you prep both cards with your driver software?

 

If you're using HDDriver, is hddriver.sys on both cards?

 

What do you have checked for bus/devices to be read?

 

Do you keep the primary (boot) card in the left slot or right?

 

Thanks.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

With older UltraSatan - black case, horizontal slot order   left one is primary.

It should work with autoboot driver installed only on first card - actually TOS 2.06 prevents multiple autoboots from hard disks, and hard disk driver SW normally prevents it in case of older TOS versions.

Possible that UltraSatan is faulty. More common failure is SD card slot self - should look are all contacts OK, not bent and like.

 

 

[+DarkLord]

Well, this is an internal US, and I used the left slot as primary

when I prepped the 4 gig card. This is with the symbol on the

US board facing up. (it's actually turned the other way when

you install it in the Mega STe's hard drive bay).

 

Wonder which is primary on the US I used in my STacy? They

are stacked vertically, on top of each other and I used the top

slot.

 

I guess I should try the STacy later and see if 2 cards work with

it.

 

It's probably some settings that I've messed with (these things are

almost always my fault). 

 

[+remowilliams]

I use two cards on mine with ICD 6.5.5

 

First card has a 16MB TOS boot partition, and two ~256MB TOS partitions.  Second card has two ~500MB FAT partitions.  

 

 

[+DarkLord]

So FAT only on the 2nd card and not TOS?

 

Thanks.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

9 hours ago, DarkLord said:

So FAT only on the 2nd card and not TOS?

 

Thanks.

 

That of course makes no sense.  And really, really, there is so much confusion in many people's head about all this.

TOS partitions are FAT partitions too. Precisely FAT16 . But they are not same as DOS (aka Windows) FAT16 partitions - logical sector sizes are different.

What remowilliams said really helps not. ICD can not handle non-TOS partitions, so unless using program BigDOS partitions on second card are TOS too, and yes, FAT too, but saying so just makes confusion.

 

Why would second card have different partition type ?  TOS can handle only TOS type (aka AHDI type) FAT16 partitions - this is proper terminology.

Up to 512 MB size in TOS 1.04-2.06 .1.00-1.02 max 256 MB.  And max 14 of them, so C-P . Stays for total count of partitions on all medias, drives.

So, if you have for instance 14 partitions on first card, second will be not accessible with regular TOS.

Please folks, read little about subject before posting here.

[+remowilliams]

9 hours ago, DarkLord said:

So FAT only on the 2nd card and not TOS?

It's not any kind of requirement, it's simply how I have it set up to use the second card as an easy windows based transfer type of thing.

 

8 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

What remowilliams said really helps not. ICD can not handle non-TOS partitions, so unless using program BigDOS partitions on second card are TOS too, and yes, FAT too, but saying so just makes confusion.

Uhm, it works just fine - no bigdos or anything else.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Some people just wont learn ... Maybe it works fine, but your description is wrong and confusing, I say it again. Of course, will not change the World. so I finished with this thread.

[+DarkLord]

Okay, I think I've got a 2 gig card working as secondary now.

 

I thought I had already prepped the first 2 gig card that I was

using but when I went back to it and tried to re-partition it, it

gave me this, "Administrative Error" and would not finish.

 

I grabbed a different 2 gig card (these are all Sandisk brand, btw)

and it partitioned out fine with no errors.

 

I got the physical manual in today from Uwe Seimet (handy things,

manuals  ), and made a couple of changes. I turned on ACSI

performance, which I'm sure has nothing to do with this.

 

I also clicked 'Preserve Existing Partitions".

 

Not sure what did what, but with the new/2nd card and these

changes, when I hit "Install Devices" all partitions now pop up

on my desktop and I can also use it with my Win7 box for transfer.

 

Gonna label this card "File Taxi". 

 

Thanks everyone, for all the help and information!

 

 

 

[+DarkLord]

Some last minute questions about using 2 cards.

 

If you boot up with only your primary card, then

insert a card into the 2nd slot, you can see the US

flash and recognize it. Do you have to run anything

to get TOS to know about it before you hit "Install

Devices"?

 

Also, lets say you boot up with your primary card

and your 2nd card in the 2nd slot. Everything is

recognized and working but if you take the 2nd

card out, use it with Win7, Kubuntu, whatever to

transfer files, then re-insert it into your US's 2nd

slot, do you have to do anything to get TOS to

acknowledge the media change?

 

Typically, in the past, "ESC" with something like

an open floppy window would update a disk change.

 

Thanks all.

 

[+DarkLord]

Finally got this resolved.

 

Using HDDriver v11.01, there's an option in the menu about removable cards, etc.

 

One of the options is to pick how many partitions to expect. For whatever (dumb?)

reason, I had always left this set at zero.

 

After clicking on help and actually reading the info. I set this to 8 and now I can boot

up with both cards in the US and it is recognizing card changes in the second slot with

out having to do a soft reset to force it to be recognized.

 

Thanks everyone, and I hope this helps someone else.

 

[Tillek]

Meh..was going to chime in, but I'm new to the UltraSatan.... and I only really used it with EmuTos.

 

Might recommend that.   Fat 16, easy enough to pop into the PC... no muss/fuss.  That's probably the ONLY thing recently that's worked well.

 

/s

 

[+DarkLord]

I'm actually pretty happy with it at the moment. Not being able to boot up with both

cards in or not having it recognize a card swap was driving me nuts though. 

 

Of course, Murphys' Law had to rear it's ugly head. I had a 2 gig Sandisk card that

I was using for file transfers fail. Sort of. It refused to be recognized by TOS and

even my Win 10 box couldn't find it when mounted. I finally formatted it from

Win 10, but only after rebooting the comp. After a quick format, Windows saw it.

 

So I took it back over to the Mega STe but HDDriver still refused to see it, so there

is no way to try and re-partition it for TOS. I'll keep it for Windows stuff I guess.

 

Really odd too - this card has not seen a lot of use - just started using it when I

got my Mega STe running again. That's not been that long ago.

 

<shrugs>

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

And again: Oh my dear God!  Since when is possible to 'format' (we call it partitioning) some disk, SD card with Windows (any), so it will work with Atari ST/TOS ?

"HDDriver still refused to see it, so there is no way to try and re-partition it for TOS. "

Really ? There is a way. And that takes max couple minutes with my SW. And surely possible with Hddriver, and little more minutes.

What is odd here ?  There is small chance that UltraSatan can not work with that card (and then it is not real Sandisk) .

So, please do self a favor and DL this:  https://www.mediafire.com/file/0hacypqbierqatg/1GB.rar/file

Write it on that 2 GB card properly (not as simple file copy), and then check will autoboot on Atari. Will be there partitions accessible. May try with some copy to see is writing works well. 

If fails, photo of card would be good .

[+DarkLord]

Okay, I said "format" because that's what Win 10 lists it as in the menu.

 

I'm fully aware that it isn't a real "format" but partitioning. It's even listed as

a "quick" format.  If you re-read my post, you'll notice I said "format" for Windows

and "re-partition" for TOS.  

 

I apologize for not being more precise.

 

However, HDDriver v11.01 will NOT find this card.  Inserted multiple times, multiple reboots, rescanning

devices and buses (all which find EVERY other card I've inserted but this one). Every other card is listed

on the bus it's on, with information about its size/capacity, etc. This bus/slot this card is on only shows up

as the bus....nothing else. Nada, nil, zilch zero...

 

Here is a picture from HDDriver. As is shown, the second SD card just isn't found. Therefore, AFAIK, you

can not access the normal options to work with the card (for example, partitioning it). This is after inserting

removing, and re-inserting the card multiple times as well as multiple bus and device scans.

 

 

Now, just because I can't get it to work doesn't mean someone with more knowledge, better experience,

etc, can't. I'm just saying that I, as a normal, typical Atari user, can not...

 

Thanks, and have a good day.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK, now I'm really confused - you asking for help, and then ignoring to perform simple test proposed. Does that means that you think that if HDDriver don't detect it, it is for sure not detected - yeah, possible. But I offered other way, what costs only some minutes.

 

And, if second card (that maybe forged Sandisk) is not detected, then you should try with other card - elementary.

[+DarkLord]

Relax Peter. Please.

 

First, I didn't actually ask for help. I was just commenting on Murphy's Law and how when

something goes right, two things will go wrong. 

 

I did mention that I've tried a handful of other 2 gig Sandisk cards and they all work fine.

 

I downloaded that file from the link you posted. I've not had a chance to try it out yet but

I'll try to later and report back here.

 

Thank you for you help, appreciated.

 

[+DarkLord]

Okay, so I extracted the contents of the .RAR file, burnt it to that SD card and got 4 folders,

1M, 2M, DISKUTIL, and IMGRUN.

 

After re-mounting it in Windows 10, they showed up on partition F. SD Card has a total of 3

partitions now, F,G, and H.

 

I tried booting up directly from this SD Card with my Mega STe and all it would do was go to

a desktop with the floppy A and B icons, as well as the trashcan. Nothing from the US.

 

Re-inserted the 4 gig SD Card I normally boot up with and restarted, no problems.

 

I put the 2 gig SD card in the second slot and attempted to read it. Nothing. Rebooted, still

nothing.

 

Ran HDDRiver v11.01 and checked the buses and devices. As before, it finds the 4 gig card

in slot 1 with no problems. 2nd slot shows up listed, but with no information, as if there's

no card there.

 

I'm attaching front and back pictures of the SD Card in question.

 

I think we've spent too much time on this Peter. Time to toss this card into the trash and

just forget about it. 

 

Thanks for your help and advice.

 

Cya.

 

 

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yeah, this does not look exactly as my Sandisk SD cards. And I have one little older 2 GB, non-HC too. Which is btw. good for Satandisk too (which works not with HC SD cards) .  Maybe instead throwing trying with Satandisk ?

 

"... ESC" with something like an open floppy window would update a disk change."

 

Some facts about TOS and disks:

Yes, Esc with opened disk window will update window content, and in case of floppy performs disk change check operation, what will result in rereading system area of floppy if is changed.

But TOS has only minimal hard disk support - remember that there was lack of ROM space in beginning. So, there is only autoboot support from ACSI devices, and FAT16 filesystem, which communicates with hard disk driver SW, and not disk/ACSI/DMA .

Then, change of media during work - called usually hot-swap was not present with classic hard disks. So, not only that TOS has not support for it, but hard disk driver SW from those years has no too.  Plus ACSI protocol has limited set of commands, status checks, and of course there is no hot-swap support (no even disk capacity detection command).  It is possible only with SCSI-1 command set (at 1986) , or with ICD extended ACSI protocol.

 

Whole hot swap became interesting only at about 2005, when Flash cards appeared.  Driver SW need to send periodically commands about media change. And if gets that it is changed must perform practically same as what happens in case of driver autoboot after reset - build new partition layout, reset buffers ...  And then can happen that will have more or less partitions (logical drives) than before. It can happen during running of some SW, must be not in Desktop.

As I know, it is UltraSatan what supports hot-swap from Atari ST popular adapters.  In case of CF cards it is little harder, but possible (IDE port) . Don't know that any of IDE adapters supports it - in any case that needs some extra chips, so increases price.  How is with those using USB Pen drives - NetUsBee, CosmosEx - I have no idea. What is sure that support for it must be in HW and SW.

 

[+DarkLord]

I actually did try the open window and hit <esc> trick. (like you can do

with swapped floppy disks without having to close the window and get

an update). It didn't make a difference with this card.

 

I don't have an actual Satandisk anymore, but I do have two Ultrasatan's.

 

One is in my STacy - it's an original Jookie model and one is in my Mega

STe - it's the Lotharek version. I don't think there is supposed to be any

difference in the two.

 

However, just for the fun of it I will try that card in my STacy (which I

haven't done yet) and report back here.

 

Thanks.

 

[+DarkLord]

Been an interesting evening here.

 

I put that twice cursed 2 gig Sandisk card into my STacy and turned it on.

I did notice that this card seems to go in harder than my other cards, like

it's meeting resistance or something. Not so bad that you have to take 2 hands

and a hammer to get it in but definitely something that is noticeable.

 

It booted right up to the game image desktop.

 

Before I could press a key from the menu, it went on, so I just arranged

the icons the way I wanted them and saved it. Here's a (really bad, sorry

about the lighting) picture of it actually working on the STacy:

 

 

Didn't try to run anything because I was just really super curious to see

what would happen if I put it back in the Mega STe. I did, and it would

not boot up. Same A, B and trash can low-res results. Go figure.

 

So...I took it back out of the Mega STe and rebooted the STacy with it in place.

 

Bam. Nothing. No game desktop, nothing. Again. Now at this point I'm really

confused as to why it would boot up correctly that -1- single time.

 

So...I pulled the card out, noticing again that it seems to "drag" when inserted

or removed. So I took a closer look.

 

"Aha!", as they say... A pictures worth a 1000 words. 

 

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK. I noticed that some plastic is missing at WP tab. But printing is not same with what I have.

Design is basically same as that on 16 GB card. And by mine that "Made in China" on back side is much smaller. That may be sign of forged card.

Mechanical damage, caused by bad socket ? Well, considering prices today, maybe really should throw it away. Then, as I wrote in recent thread here, soon will be problem to find new card what works with UltraSatan (and others) - as they getting faster and faster, and that's just not good for slow retro technology. I mean, even UltraSatan design from some 10 years ago is a bit retro now.

[+DarkLord]

Yeah, that's why I've kinda stocked up on 2 gig, 4 gig, etc, size Sandisk cards.

 

If you don't run into something like I did with that card, they normally last a

pretty long time.