Galagon for A8 Computers?

[YSG2020]

I asked over on the 2600 thread and have not received a reply. Does anybody here perhaps know if an A8 computer port is being done for Galagon?  I am very impressed with what they pulled off on the 2600. I suspect if the same effort were made for the 8bits it would be  better than the official 7800 Galaga release. I’d love to see a good port of Asteroids Deluxe for the A8s also which I also suspect could be better than the 7800 version. Any news?

Edited April 5, 2020 by YSG2020

[+Stephen]

We'll not get a similar port to Galagon given that it uses a few hundred MHz ARM co-processor and we don't have something like that for the A8.  We coould use the 10+ year old VBXE but that seems to be a verboten upgrade to use, let alone even talk about.

 

What we currently have, is https://atariage.com/forums/topic/296152-another-galaga-thread

[jamm]

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

We'll not get a similar port to Galagon given that it uses a few hundred MHz ARM co-processor and we don't have something like that for the A8.  We coould use the 10+ year old VBXE but that seems to be a verboten upgrade to use, let alone even talk about.

 

What we currently have, is https://atariage.com/forums/topic/296152-another-galaga-thread

 

How long before the VBXE is old enough to be considered classic hardware, too??

[kiwilove]

Though I only skimmed through the video showing this game running - no mention was made that it requires the Harmony cart to run, and that it does it's magic through using the ARM processor.

So that it does not run on a stock 2600.  Therefore this could not be done like this, back in the day, via Atari.  This kind of upgrade was not possible.

Sure - a Galaga port could have been done - but with blocky, glitchy graphics.

 

It does seem to be likely possible for an excellent port of Galaga to be possible on the Atari 8-bit / 5200 hardware - as seen in the above thread - but it is only a WIP / experiment at the moment.  Using all the tricks available to pull it off successfully.

 

Harvey

[YSG2020]

Playsoft’s A8 proof of concept Galaga test looks amazing. Better than the 7800 release just like I suspected. I hope this is finished! It’s a shame the way the software was developed and pushed out the door in such a hurry back in the day due to their release pressure and the industry changing so rapidly back then. These systems were SO under utilized in terms of what could have been done if the developers had the time to test and creatively push the limits of the hardware with brilliant coding.  That 7800 version of Galaga is a joke considering what that platform is actually capable of - It should/could look and sound like a MAME rom port from the actual arcade version. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by YSG2020

[Gunstar]

I suspect that upgrades like the VBXE and Rapidus would be more widely accepted, if instead of them being internal upgrades that many can't do and don't want to pay some one else to do for them on top of the upgrade cost itself, versions were made for PBI/ECI and 800 slot 3. Easy plug-and-play for the Atari "masses."  Of course it's the software that makes the machine or upgrade. I've been waiting on software myself with VBXE, so it's between a rock and a hard place with needing more software to attract more users, and more development not there for lack of users, I suspect. But some more users would be attracted just if it was an easy plug-and-play upgrade. Rapidus is just expensive, so that's why I haven't gotten it yet, but intend too.

[Gunstar]

33 minutes ago, jamm said:

 

How long before the VBXE is old enough to be considered classic hardware, too??

I believe the norm for anything going from the status of obsolete or old junk to "classic" and "retro" is about 25 years. If it was mass-produced, the VBXE would be in the old junk/bargain bin dirt-cheap status by now and wouldn't become valuable or sought after again, fetching high prices for at least another 10-15 years. But that also depends how rare it is. C64's can still be had for relatively cheap while Atari's are skyrocketing because there are far less of them.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Gunstar

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, kiwilove said:

So that it does not run on a stock 2600. 

Incorrect. It runs fine on a stock 2600. It requires a custom cartridge board with additional RAM and processing on-board, the very same board that the Harmony Cartridge uses, along with modern homebrews like SPACE ROCKS. In principle, it's just the next step beyond additional bankswitched RAM on the cartridge like that used by vintage titles by CBS, by the DPC sound chip used by Activision on PITFALL II, or the Atari 7800 games that use POKEY sound - additional-capability resources placed on the cart rather than inside the system. Nintendo made a fortune and locked up a huge chunk of the US videogame market for a decade doing the same with "mappers" for NES games. This is exactly the same but using newer tech for older systems.

 

In the A8 world, all the current flash carts emulate vintage ROM cartridges with variations of the same theme: a more-capable modern bit of hardware allowing the vintage hardware to do stuff it could never have done back in the day.

[kiwilove]

1 minute ago, DrVenkman said:

Incorrect. It runs fine on a stock 2600. It requires a custom cartridge board with additional RAM and processing on-board, the very same board that the Harmony Cartridge uses, along with modern homebrews like SPACE ROCKS. In principle, it's just the next step beyond additional bankswitched RAM on the cartridge like that used by vintage titles by CBS, by the DPC sound chip used by Activision on PITFALL II, or the Atari 7800 games that use POKEY sound - additional-capability resources placed on the cart rather than inside the system. Nintendo made a fortune and locked up a huge chunk of the US videogame market for a decade doing the same with "mappers" for NES games. This is exactly the same but using newer tech for older systems.

 

In the A8 world, all the current flash carts emulate vintage ROM cartridges with variations of the same theme: a more-capable modern bit of hardware allowing the vintage hardware to do stuff it could never have done back in the day.

A stock 2600 does not include a Harmony cartridge.

I did mean to say that Galagon does not run on a stock 2600.

 

Harvey

[Gunstar]

1 minute ago, DrVenkman said:

Incorrect. It runs fine on a stock 2600. It requires a custom cartridge board with additional RAM and processing on-board, the very same board that the Harmony Cartridge uses, along with modern homebrews like SPACE ROCKS. In principle, it's just the next step beyond additional bankswitched RAM on the cartridge like that used by vintage titles by CBS, by the DPC sound chip used by Activision on PITFALL II, or the Atari 7800 games that use POKEY sound - additional-capability resources placed on the cart rather than inside the system. Nintendo made a fortune and locked up a huge chunk of the US videogame market for a decade doing the same with "mappers" for NES games. This is exactly the same but using newer tech for older systems.

 

In the A8 world, all the current flash carts emulate vintage ROM cartridges with variations of the same theme: a more-capable modern bit of hardware allowing the vintage hardware to do stuff it could never have done back in the day.

Super FX on SNES carts, Sega megadrive/Genesis SVP chip on cart, etc,

[+DrVenkman]

Just now, kiwilove said:

A stock 2600 does not include a Harmony cartridge.

I did mean to say that Galagon does not run on a stock 2600.

By that definition, no game not included in the system box runs on a stock 2600, which is absurd. 

[YSG2020]

DrVenkman that’s exactly what I was thinking and totally agree. No different than what Activision did inside the Pitfall II cart with the extra internal support hardware bundled inside the game cart. It was a great idea and very successful. More games should have used this same strategy to increase their performance and capabilities. I would not be opposed at all to an A8 Galaga cart utilizing similar.

Edited April 6, 2020 by YSG2020

[Rybags]

Thet's on Harmony cart so benefits from extra Ram, massive bankswitching and I believe the AVR processor which injects the 6502 code onto the bus to allow the greatly enhanced graphics and sound.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, kiwilove said:

Though I only skimmed through the video showing this game running - no mention was made that it requires the Harmony cart to run, and that it does it's magic through using the ARM processor.

So that it does not run on a stock 2600.  Therefore this could not be done like this, back in the day, via Atari.  This kind of upgrade was not possible.

Sure - a Galaga port could have been done - but with blocky, glitchy graphics.

 

It does seem to be likely possible for an excellent port of Galaga to be possible on the Atari 8-bit / 5200 hardware - as seen in the above thread - but it is only a WIP / experiment at the moment.  Using all the tricks available to pull it off successfully.

 

Harvey

Fully agree!

[solo/ng]

Technically you cuold have a cartridge for a8/xl/xe with snapdragon 965, 8 cores, 2.4Ghz

Compute all you need/want on it (for example in C) and just stream results to screen/machine (via various methods).

 

Didint check the A2600 game but having their cartridge would do something like this.

 

 

[Faicuai]

5 minutes ago, solo/ng said:

Technically you cuold have a cartridge for a8/xl/xe with snapdragon 965, 8 cores, 2.4Ghz

Compute all you need/want on it (for example in C) and just stream results to screen/machine (via various methods).

 

Didint check the A2600 game but having their cartridge would do something like this.

 

 

 

There is a limit to how much power-watts (and/or heat) you can dissipate on a cartridge port. 

 

That processor would have to be a 14nm or smaller. 

[YSG2020]

Scrolling through that 'Another Galaga thread' above, they are rapidly making progress on this daily (now that everyone is at home Covid-19) !  Looks like we'll have a wicked A8/5200 Galaga version in no time!   If you haven't already, go download the latest binary sample.  It's unreal they are getting that performance under 32kB on an A8.  I really do suspect Galaga and Asteroids Deluxe on the A8's are the Holy Grail wanted games for our platform.

Edited April 6, 2020 by YSG2020

[kiwilove]

Nope - progress has not been all that active - but what do I know?  Some one might be beavering away on it... maybe?

 

It only seems to be very active - by those who are new to hearing about it now.  I would be surprised if enough progress has been made towards the end of this year?

That it can be done using the original hardware - without resorting to 64K would be the surprise.

 

Harvey

[YSG2020]

There's some updates and files posted there it looks like as recent as a few weeks ago?   I'd be ok with them stuffing some additional helper hardware in a cart to get it to work on stock machines.     Even a 64K version would be ok.   Perhaps an A8/5200 32kB Galaga coding competition might speed things up...

Edited April 6, 2020 by YSG2020

[Wrathchild]

6 hours ago, solo/ng said:

Technically you cuold have a cartridge for a8/xl/xe with snapdragon 965, 8 cores, 2.4Ghz

Compute all you need/want on it (for example in C) and just stream results to screen/machine (via various methods).

 

The A8 series already has this in the form of the UNO Cart.

 

 

[+Philsan]

@SpiceWare explains what DPC and DPC+ are:

 

DPC is the co-processor that David Crane developed for Activision. It makes some calculations significantly faster, such as updating the players (sprites), adds the ability for 3-voice music, and other things. It was used for Pitfall II. The market collapsed before they could use it for any other games.

 

The ARM chip in the Harmony/Melody cartridge emulates the DPC so it can play Pitfall II. Back in 2010 we decided to use the extra resources to expand upon DPC's abilities and came up with DPC+. The new features are even faster updating of sprites, better 3 voice music (the waveforms can be customized while the original DPC only used square waves), and even the ability to offload processing to the ARM chip in the Harmony/Melody. Games like Space Rocks and Stay Frosty 2 were written using 6507 assembly and DPC+ with ARM.

 

The DPC+ for Atari 2600 VCS has those strenghts:

- it is well accepted by the community because it is based on 1984 DPC, it's not a completely new modern enhancement

- it is emulated by Harmony cart, the standard multicart for VCS for over ten years; VCS hasn't dozens loading devices like A8

- homebrew VCS market is wider than A8 one and many people buy games on carts that have melody boards inside that support DPC+; BTW, those carts with awesome games and awesome packages like Galagon, Aardvark... cost only $50!

 

A8 already has some upgrades or solutions, like VBXE, Rapidus, multicarts (UNO, Veronica, Hashi, other multicarts could add enhancements too) but:

- there isn't a standard

- some of them needs hardware mods

- some of them are not well accepted because some people think that they transform A8 in something different

 

[Gunstar]

5 hours ago, Philsan said:

 

- some of them are not well accepted because some people think that they transform A8 in something different

 

This is the part where pure idiocy takes over in "some people" as it's not transforming it into something different, it is adding something new to it, just like chips on carts, only internally or just like any computer that has card slots to add into it, just not as easy (unless PBI/ECI and slot-3 800 versions are made). The machine can still run as stock and fully compatible. It's still an Atari 8-bit as surely as any PC (or larger Amiga, Mega STe/TT, Apple II, even 1090 if it existed) is still a PC with added cards like graphics installed.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Gunstar

[+slx]

Veronika would not come up at hundreds of MHz but 14 and is purely plug-in and could do some screen processing in the background. It probably can't do as much screen manipulation as the 2600 cart coprocessor.

[jamm]

23 hours ago, Gunstar said:

This is the part where pure idiocy takes over in "some people" as it's not transforming it into something different, it is adding something new to it, just like chips on carts, only internally or just like any computer that has card slots to add into it, just not as easy (unless PBI/ECI and slot-3 800 versions are made). The machine can still run as stock and fully compatible. It's still an Atari 8-bit as surely as any PC (or larger Amiga, Mega STe/TT, Apple II, even 1090 if it existed) is still a PC with added cards like graphics installed.

It's not idiocy, it's just that people draw the line at what hardware is "too much" at different places. 

 

I could write a program that captured my PC screen, converted it to 320x200 bitmap, and sent it to my 800XL via an SIO2PC interface, and conversely sent my joystick movements from the Atari back to the PC.  I could then use that setup to play Quake.  It'd be a neat trick, but I don't think anyone here would say that I'd gotten Quake to run on the 800XL.  Why?  Technically it'd be true: through this method, I would've added gigabytes of RAM and storage, an Intel-compatible CPU instruction set, and many orders of magnitude additional processing power to my Atari.  In the case of SIO2PC, it's something the A8 hobbyist community has done for decades, but only thought of as an extension to storage. 

 

In my slightly different, theoretical example, I would've gone well past the line most of us would consider too far removed (in more ways than one) from the original machine to consider an "accomplishment" of the original machine anymore.  And yet, one could argue (and be technically correct, IMO), that it's no different from any other expansion or extension that's been available from the very beginning.  Like plugging in a cartridge.

 

Sure, I think some of these complaints about upgrades are silly, but they're no different from things I would say if the upgrade were past the line I draw in my own head about this.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by jamm

[Faicuai]

7 hours ago, slx said:

Veronika would not come up at hundreds of MHz but 14 and is purely plug-in and could do some screen processing in the background. It probably can't do as much screen manipulation as the 2600 cart coprocessor.

Ding, ding!

 

Correct! Most of these co-processing solutions are stop-gags when it comes to opening up really new opportunities with plain, raw-performance.

 

Only when you get around (or exceed) 200 Mhz is when things become really promising...  As an example, and if you look at the 800 (putting aside Incognito which it presumably cripples slots 1-3 maybe in favor of its local, daisy-chain PBI facilities), you could slide a processor board on Slot-3 (based on how much power can be delivered and dissipated there), report to the system bus as a dynamically updated ROM (or even RAM) [8K+8K] window on $8000-$BFFF, serving as "video memory buffer" that can be updated many times faster with its own 500Mhz-1000Mhz cpu, possibly pre-generating executable code / data for ANTIC, or running pre-set DLIs on behalf of local 6502 much, much faster. It should work always as a slave, and in complete unison with on-board architecture, system timings and HW interrupt facilities. It may not add more resolution and better graphics modes, but will allow you to exploit EVERYTHING Antic and GTIA have to offer without any CPU-bound limitations. Even more, you could even turn off DMA (shutting down Antic) and draw EVERYTHING with that co-processor through its address-space footprint on the bus. 

 

In that case, you will have a product that, more than foreign hardware, it would systemically enhance the local platform by leveraging on its ARCHITECTURE. That may be the case where you can say Atari continues to be Atari, it is more about the system architecture and provided facilities, rather than the individual identity of specific components.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Faicuai