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What's Your Moral Stance On ROMS?


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I don't really have a stance on ROMS and emulation, I prefer the real deal when I have access to it, but if I'm lazy or just can't find the game I want, I'll go download the ROM. Now, if it's ROMS for a system that's still supported by the company and there's plenty of ways to get the game, then I'm against it. 

 

 

 

Also, apologies for my bad grammar, I was up all night and my brain gnome is working overtime

Edited by Magmavision2000
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I'd say I'm morally unstable with ROMs. :D  I don't have a problem with them, nor sharing them, but I also get that a select small percent are actually in some format still sold.  Yet even when they are, YOU may not have the format they're on which would mean sinking potentially hundreds of dollars into paying some dozen-dozens year old game which is kind of insane.  When it is using the 'ROM' term for ease talking about currently on the market new product they're now/currently realizing a profit on for their work I do have an issue with it.  Yet I grew up in the era of shareware and HONEST demos that didn't peddle stuff that doesn't fit the final product, so like during the GBC, GBA, N64, DS era I'd use an emulator to test something out for anywhere from 15minutes to an hour or two and then make my decision.  Historically doing this I found I came across stuff that was lied about by the so called 'gaming media' that was utter shit and I saved $30-40, but I'd also take a gamble and try something I'd find was awesome they'd write reviews that didn't line up to reality and I'd buy them so I probably broke even anyway.  I'd never keep the stuff though if I ended up hating it, I wasn't a rom hoarder as it's pointless.

 

Now when it comes to stuff like multi-month to years old homebrew projects, people peddling illegally owned prototypes, translations of games to english I'm fine if they're handed around.  As to homebrew, not everyone is going to buy some basic home made stuff on some expensive old cart, same with the protos.  Worse the protos are STOLEN and being sold like they have a right to, so they can suck it.  Translations, they're already old games, and the translator doesn't own their translation it's still the wholly owned script of the game maker so any money they get should be at all considered a tip, but to sell for profit I think not.

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I like having the physical machines and carts for my games, but I also use emulation and roms. I have multicarts for all of my machines and I leave them plugged in, so I minimize the wear on connectors. Obviously I use roms on them. I also have emulators and roms on my computer, which is good for a quick game once in a while. Also for a quick check to see if the game is something I'm going to enjoy.

 

Like you said, "if it's roms for a system that's still supported by the company and there's plenty of was to get the game", then I am against it as well, unless I have the a physical copy of the game. Then, OK.

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6 minutes ago, 0078265317 said:

Nintendo is cracking down on rom site.  Soon none will be left so it does not matter.

that seems like hyperbole to me- just like the line from Star Wars about star systems slipping through Imperial fingers (or something like that).  There's always going to be places I think to get ROMs no matter what kind of controls the companies exert.

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How else are you going to play Neo Turf Masters on your Neo Geo AES if you didn't buy the cart 20 years ago, don't have a friend who owns it, or you don't have the MVS version + cart adaptor? I can't afford a $25000 video game.

 

Yes, I could just go get the MVS version on the Switch for $8 or whatever, but what if I want to play it on the Neo Geo like it's meant to be played? Once I get a Neo Geo, anyway.

 

Yes, using ROMs sucks. I'd much rather use real carts, but there is a limit to how much I can pay for a real game before it's just too much, and many of the Neo Geo games that I want are well over $1000 and I can't afford that.

 

Japanese Mega Drive is really bad, too. I wish I had figured that out before I started buying games for it, but too late now as I already have a few games that might be considered expensive, depending on who you ask. I paid 9000 yen for Sonic & Knuckles last summer and it was just the cart and not the box or manual! Japanese Sonic & Knuckles is rare for some reason. Unfortunately that's one you absolutely need in your collection, so there is no avoiding it. Good thing it's half of the second best game ever made so it was worth it! Maybe I'll own a real copy of Eliminate Down eventually and I'd like to, but not now.

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I wish it was not.  But straight from the horses mouth.

 

https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

 

There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet.

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1 hour ago, 0078265317 said:

I wish it was not.  But straight from the horses mouth.

 

https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

 

There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet.

The question is about moral position not legal position.

 

By the way nintendo is talking about the part of us copyright concerning computer software.  They reference section 117.a.2 which is about backups but ignore 117.a.1 which makes the second copy legal for emulation.

Edited by mr_me
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1 hour ago, Steven Pendleton said:

How else are you going to play Neo Turf Masters on your Neo Geo AES if you didn't buy the cart 20 years ago, don't have a friend who owns it, or you don't have the MVS version + cart adaptor? I can't afford a $25000 video game.

 

Yes, I could just go get the MVS version on the Switch for $8 or whatever, but what if I want to play it on the Neo Geo like it's meant to be played? Once I get a Neo Geo, anyway.

Magic Key or whatever it's called converter for AES, then you buy the cheap MVS game and lock that into the adapter device, which then slides into the AES.  I don't blame you, you have to be mentally ill even if that is chump change for a few to pay that for a video game.

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I started out just like you, playing real carts on real hardware.  Then one day I realized there were games out there I could never experience, and I had no idea what they were like.  One day, someone said to me "Hey, man, you can download these games on the internet.  Tell you what, I'll even give you the first one FOR FREE."  That was all it took.  Once I got that first taste, I was downloading anything I could find, making CDs and filling hard drives.  Rips, Hacks, ISOs, I did it all!  And then, one day, I woke up... and there was an emulator on my cell phone... and I had no idea how it got there.

 

save yourself.

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25 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Magic Key or whatever it's called converter for AES, then you buy the cheap MVS game and lock that into the adapter device, which then slides into the AES.  I don't blame you, you have to be mentally ill even if that is chump change for a few to pay that for a video game.

Yep, I'm going to be picking up one of those MVS to AES cart adaptors and getting MVS games mostly because I like real carts. Neo Geo ROM carts are expensive, too, for that matter! I'll be able to enjoy a real Neo Turf Masters cart on my real Neo Geo (once I get it) without paying an amount that is roughly equivalent to my annual salary (after exchange rate) for one game!

 

Still, using a ROM cart does really help for playing games on real hardware that are out of reach due to their prices, and there is no way I can afford to buy Eliminate Down, Vampire Killer, Twinkle Tale, or Panorama Cotton right now, so I use the MegaSD instead. I've actually started using my own dumps of my own games on my flash carts, as well, since both the Super Nt and the SSDS3 have cart/HuCARD dumping functions. Now I can keep my copies of Rondo of Blood, Sonic CD, Super Metroid, Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon Spirit, and other games and also the PC Engine Super System Card safe while still using my legally obtained copies on real hardware.

 

Too bad the Mega Sg doesn't have a cart dumping function, since I'd love nothing more than to dump Gleylancer and all of my other expensive Mega Drive games to do the same with those.

Edited by Steven Pendleton
fixed some stuff
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More and more I see people selling emulation systems loaded up with ROMs, and that bugs me. 

 

But for personal use, pfft, let 'er rip.  I play ROMs downloaded from the internet almost daily, and with zero compunction.  

 

I do own a small, focused collection of real hardware and carts, but it doesn't nearly cover all of the games I'm interested in playing, and I'm not about to go out and round up multiple other consoles, games, and peripherals.  Within reason, my reluctance to do so has very little to do with money.  I don't mind at all putting money into hobbies.  It has much more to do with how I don't want to store all that stuff, I don't want the psychological burden of knowing it's there, I don't want to clean or maintain it, I don't want to have to repair things that wear out, I don't want to spend the time hunting for stuff, I don't want to deal with vultures on the internet, I don't want to be constantly breaking down and disposing of shipping packaging, the list goes on.  Emulation lets me enjoy the games without any of these factors coming into play.  

 

It's hard to put some kind of worth on these old ROMs.  It's a fallacy to say "dude, you have 5000 ROMs, so even if you're conservative and say that they're worth an average of $0.50 each, that's $2,500 worth of games you're stealing!"  This line of argumentation ignores the fact that, in the vast majority of cases, I only have a given ROM because it's freely available.  Downloading sets of ROMs is by far the most convenient way to get them, and it would take a great deal of time and effort to go through them all and delete the ones you don't really want.  Which, in a sense, makes having many ROMs easier than not having them.  

 

The recent boom of official "mini" consoles has shown that the internet emulation scene hasn't ruined the ability of companies to turn a profit from old games.  There will always be a demographic of people who can't be bothered to fart around with emulation, in the same way I can't be bothered farting around with piles of real hardware.  

 

Another thing about ROMs that I love is the flexibility they provide.  I have the files and can put them on almost any device, on any TV in my home, on a home-built arcade-style cabinet, whatever, without any irritating DRM.  

 

If a Spotify-style subscription service were launched for retro games that covered 2600 up to around PS1, I'd pay to use that for sure.  But that'll never happen.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Cynicaster said:

 

The recent boom of official "mini" consoles has shown that the internet emulation scene hasn't ruined the ability of companies to turn a profit from old games.  There will always be a demographic of people who can't be bothered to fart around with emulation, in the same way I can't be bothered farting around with piles of real hardware.  

The average consumer is not aware that you can go on the internet and download ROMs. They also don't know what a ROM is or what emulation is, and even the average person who plays video games sees an old game on a new system and automatically thinks it's a port when it's actually more than likely emulation since it's probably easier to take the game, stick it in an emulator, and program the emulator to run on modern hardware than it is to actually partially reconstruct the old game to run on current systems, which is what porting is. I'm not a dev, though, so this is just a guess.

Edited by Steven Pendleton
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This question used to be a lot easier back in the early days.  Was the company still selling the game in stores?  If so then it was wrong to pirate it.  Did the company not exist anymore?  Was the system dead and buried?  Then it was fine, it was 'abandonware'.   But now that companies are actively selling their old game catalogs, it makes things very murky morally. 

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10 minutes ago, Tempest said:

This question used to be a lot easier back in the early days.  Was the company still selling the game in stores?  If so then it was wrong to pirate it.  Did the company not exist anymore?  Was the system dead and buried?  Then it was fine, it was 'abandonware'.   But now that companies are actively selling their old game catalogs, it makes things very murky morally. 

Largely what I was gonna say. I had no problem whatsoever when you couldn't get the game any other way and you weren't hurting anyone as they were not monetizing the games. I guess it's like being in the early 2000s and using Limewire or Kazaa before there were easy, legal ways to buy music online. 

 

I will say this; I don't mind pirating old stuff or stuff you can't get any other way, but I don't pirate new games. I guess that distinction makes it morally "okay" for me. 

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1 hour ago, dj_convoy said:

Largely what I was gonna say. I had no problem whatsoever when you couldn't get the game any other way and you weren't hurting anyone as they were not monetizing the games. I guess it's like being in the early 2000s and using Limewire or Kazaa before there were easy, legal ways to buy music online. 

 

I will say this; I don't mind pirating old stuff or stuff you can't get any other way, but I don't pirate new games. I guess that distinction makes it morally "okay" for me. 

This is largely where I sit- current, or even last-gen games are largely off limits unless there's no legal way to obtain them (Scott Pilgrim being a famous case). When a game is young, it makes the most money, & the people who created it deserve to get paid. Last gen titles are typically only available secondhand so they aren't getting a cut, but keeping some value in the secondhand market is good for said creators- many people only pay full price becuase they know they can sell later.

 

Anything older is largely fair game becuase access, if available, is prone to change- use the wii virtual console! Nevermind, pay again to have it on Wii U! Nevermind, buy an online subscription & we'll hook up with some stuff! Plus, most of the time these games are being peddled after the ROM's been out some time. You're not getting that horse back in the barn, so to speak.

 

Of course, this is all a moot point because I'm one of those folks who'd prefer to muck about with old hardware then fiddle with ROMs. I've considered picking up/"commissioning" someone to make a Retro Pi for my sister- she gets the retro bug from time to time & has a retro duo (or similar machine)... but she's tight on cash & has a VERY small apartment, so a tiny box with every old title she could ever want would be a great thing for her. Of course, many of the people who'd actually set up such a thing for me are shady & probably not worth dealing with, so I haven't seriously looked into it.

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13 hours ago, mr_me said:

The question is about moral position not legal position.

 

By the way nintendo is talking about the part of us copyright concerning computer software.  They reference section 117.a.2 which is about backups but ignore 117.a.1 which makes the second copy legal for emulation.

Yes morally I dont want to go to jail.  And nowhere does say anything about a second copy.  They say no even its its no longer available.

 

Isn't it Okay to Download Nintendo ROMs for Games that are No Longer Distributed in the Stores or Commercially Exploited? Aren't They Considered "Public Domain"?

No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant as to its copyright status. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and using, copying and/or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.

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16 minutes ago, 0078265317 said:

Yes morally I dont want to go to jail.  And nowhere does say anything about a second copy.  They say no even its its no longer available.

 

Isn't it Okay to Download Nintendo ROMs for Games that are No Longer Distributed in the Stores or Commercially Exploited? Aren't They Considered "Public Domain"?

No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant as to its copyright status. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and using, copying and/or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.

??

 

?THERE WILL ALWAYS BE WAYS TO GET NINTENDO ROMS. Nintendo can spout all the legalize they wish, we all know their stance on roms and have known for years that if they had an infinity gauntlet they would snap their fingers and make every possible distribution channel of Nintendo roms disappear. YES, they have and will shut down sites only for others to appear in their place, then there are torrents, ftp, etc. And really, if you are advertising and distributing their roms especially for profit you deserve what happens. But as long as there is a demand there will always be a way to obtain Nintendo roms whether they like it or not. Now, you do whatever you think is right or you deem right because Nintendo says so but the fact of the matter is, should you or anyone download a Nintendo ROM or even an entire archive of roms for your personal use, if you are not distributing to others and especially if you are not charging for them you wont be going to jail. Thinking that just by downloading a rom, Nintendo or otherwise to run in an emulator for you own personal use will somehow make the police appear at your door, well, that's just paranoia. ? 10 years, 20 years and so on, people will still be obtaining and playing Nintendo and other ROMS happily. Round and round it goes...........

Edited by OldSchoolRetroGamer
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44 minutes ago, 0078265317 said:

Yes morally I dont want to go to jail.  And nowhere does say anything about a second copy.  They say no even its its no longer available.

 

Isn't it Okay to Download Nintendo ROMs for Games that are No Longer Distributed in the Stores or Commercially Exploited? Aren't They Considered "Public Domain"?

No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant as to its copyright status. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and using, copying and/or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.

Downloading a rom file is not criminal so you won't be going to jail.  Just don't make more copies and start distributing them because that is likely criminal.  It's still likely copyright infringement so you could be sued for the infringing copies you have by the rights holder; but how much can they sue you for when these rom files are worth pennies a copy.

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22 hours ago, Magmavision2000 said:

I don't really have a stance on ROMS and emulation, I prefer the real deal when I have access to it, but if I'm lazy or just can't find the game I want, I'll go download the ROM. Now, if it's ROMS for a system that's still supported by the company and there's plenty of ways to get the game, then I'm against it. 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, apologies for my bad grammar, I was up all night and my brain gnome is working overtime

If I owned the game BITD,  I have no moral qualms about owning the rom so I can still play it.

 

If I didn't own it, then I'd still consider it piracy.

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I frequently buy games when I already have the ROMs elsewhere.  I just like the convenience factor.  So in that sense, I'm okay with emulation of current games because it is not a deterrent from me buying the game legit.

 

I recognize that I am not a representative sample of the public at large.

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I like physical copies. However, it' so much more convenient to have all your favorite games on one cart. On one system in particular, the PSP, I prefer roms. Although technically I love the cartridges (miniature cds!!), loading times can be excessive sometimes. Moral wise, I try to own all my fave games though which is/was easy on the psp and difficult on gameboy or gamegear without breaking the bank.

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Moral stance??? The ROMs, ISOs, and other electronic game data containers are the only way that most people in the future will be able to enjoy the majority of games. Keeping copies of these is essential for long term preservation. For really rare and/or unique titles it is actually morally wrong to not have proper dumps and scans created and shared when it comes to preservation.

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