What's Your Moral Stance On ROMS?

[+phoenixdownita]

Why spending so much time trying to find a "moral stance" about something that is still illegal in many jurisdictions?

 

There are exceptions, some ROMs have been put in the public domain and so on ... but until the laws on copyright change there's no "moral stance" about it.

 

You do as you please but there's no "moral ground" on which to justify it until the current copyright laws hold.

Now onto how to change them .... that's the right question imho.

 

Btw if you live in one of the jurisdictions in which ROMs are free to copy and copyrights either don't apply or have expired, then obviously you are not doing anything wrong and once again you need no "moral stance" about it.

[mr_me]

Law and ethics are different things.  Lots of companies do unethical and immoral things that are legal.  Similarly, there are ethical actions that could be illegal. 

 

I don't think copyright laws are going to improve anytime soon.  If anything they just get extended so Disney can make more money for nothing.  That's whether or not you think it's right or wrong.

Edited April 21, 2020 by mr_me

[Hwlngmad]

I know that I am a little late to the party on this topic, but throwing my two cents into the discussion I am morally for ROMs for older systems like the Odyssey 2, NES, SNES, Genesis / Mega Drive, Neo Geo, Neo Geo Pocket, PS1, etc. as those systems have long since been on store shelves seeking to be bought at premium prices.  However, I don't think it is appropriate to be doing this for current systems (i.e. Switch, Xbox One, PS4, etc.).  Just my thoughts as I really don't want to be paying (potentially) thousands of dollars to be getting into and exploring systems like the Neo Geo MVS/AES library.  Sorry, I don't make enough bread for that kinda action.  However, I am thoroughly enjoying exploring it on my modded PS1 Classic and Retroflag GPi.  Still, I know that I am very much legally in the wrong here, but morally / ethically don't believe emulation with ROMs is that bad of a thing, if at all.  Again, just my thoughts.

[derFunkenstein]

I'll never pirate a homebrew/after-life ROM. I've bought Tanglewood and Xenocrisis ROMs for the Genesis, though. 

 

PS2/Xbox/GameCube/Dreamcast games that came out during the console's lifespan and older don't bother me. They're only available second-hand, and I think there's plenty of demand from physical game collectors to keep that market afloat. I'm not particularly interested in pirating anything newer. The Xbox 360/PS3/Wii generation is not all that exciting to me. 

[Nintendo64]

As far as moral standards go, if its immoral to use roms for entertainment, then it should also be immoral to watch any music video on youtube that comes from anyone other than the original artists channel. Allot of people, who obviously dont own the rights to the songs on youtube they are uploading, are also make money on these videos through ads which is even worse. I think like others have said, the decades old software that the original companies dont earn any money from anymore is ok to use in my opinion. The main problem is people trying to make money off of something that they dont own, whether it be roms or music, and I think that is immoral.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Nintendo64

[derFunkenstein]

Yeah, I agree that people trying to make money off it is the big concern. Reposting stuff to YouTube, that's the only possible intention. Posting ROMs, I'm not so sure. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by derFunkenstein

[+phoenixdownita]

21 hours ago, Nintendo64 said:

 The main problem is people trying to make money off of something that they dont own, whether it be roms or music, and I think that is immoral.

No it's not the main problem.

Copyright laws were put in place not only for money but also for allowing the rights holders the freedom to do as they please with their own creations (Mario or Mickey Mouse or Sonic, or music or games or anything that can be copyrighted) .... and if they choose to bury them to "never been seen again" ... or well until the expiration of the copyright, so be it.

 

The fact that "if I don't make any money" then it's fine means nothing .... you cannot create copies or any derivative work even if you do all of it for free .... it is not that hard really. The legal way is for you to make your own backups by your means, that's pretty much it (and yes fair use for critique, parody, journalism ...)

 

To top it all of none of this undermines anyone's livelihood, nobody has a gaming emergency and MUST experience game X for system Y at any point in his/her life.

 

We do it knowing what we do, we try to make ourselves feel better about it (nobody is losing any money etc...etc...) but it's just that, projecting our wants, and excusing our deeds.

 

I really believe laws should change to make it clear how to be able to consume/enjoy things that are inherently relatively easy to duplicate/replicate without having to feel guilty but Disney has been relentless, that's for sure.

 

I repeat nobody needs to own any full romset or even half of it, or to play "rare" rom titles because they are "rare" ... we surely want to.

 

[0078265317]

2 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

No it's not the main problem.

Copyright laws were put in place not only for money but also for allowing the rights holders the freedom to do as they please with their own creations (Mario or Mickey Mouse or Sonic, or music or games or anything that can be copyrighted) .... and if they choose to bury them to "never been seen again" ... or well until the expiration of the copyright, so be it.

 

The fact that "if I don't make any money" then it's fine means nothing .... you cannot create copies or any derivative work even if you do all of it for free .... it is not that hard really. The legal way is for you to make your own backups by your means, that's pretty much it (and yes fair use for critique, parody, journalism ...)

 

To top it all of none of this undermines anyone's livelihood, nobody has a gaming emergency and MUST experience game X for system Y at any point in his/her life.

 

We do it knowing what we do, we try to make ourselves feel better about it (nobody is losing any money etc...etc...) but it's just that, projecting our wants, and excusing our deeds.

 

I really believe laws should change to make it clear how to be able to consume/enjoy things that are inherently relatively easy to duplicate/replicate without having to feel guilty but Disney has been relentless, that's for sure.

 

I repeat nobody needs to own any full romset or even half of it, or to play "rare" rom titles because they are "rare" ... we surely want to.

 

That makes sense.  But what if say you have a broken FDS and really want to play doki doki panic.  And your disk is not working error 27.  And I don't want to shell out another 25 dollars for another copy that may or may not work.  Or eBay eventually has no copies left.  Then I have to download a rom.  That is the only way to experience the game.  Or if you don't have an fds int he first place.  And nothing on eBay working is cheap.  Just for one game a rom is better than spending 100 dollars on a FDS with new belt.  

[Nintendo64]

5 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Copyright laws were put in place not only for money but also for allowing the rights holders the freedom to do as they please with their own creations (Mario or Mickey Mouse or Sonic, or music or games or anything that can be copyrighted) .... and if they choose to bury them to "never been seen again" ... or well until the expiration of the copyright, so be it.

The question was about moral stance, not legal stance. Not all laws are created to fit morality standards. In actuality most laws are created through bribing (lobbying) to help companies make more money, and have nothing to do with morality at all. Have you ever watched a music video on youtube for entertainment that wasn't on the posted by the original artists channel? If so, by your standard its immoral to watch/listen to the video because you don't own the product and are not supporting the original artist. I never said anything about downloading roms as being unlawful, i just stated its not immoral in my opinion.

 

Now if your downloading current roms where companies and employees are still getting paid from the product, i feel that is immoral because people should get paid for their work. Also to flip it around, do you think its moral that a company charges you for the same product over and over again if you purchased it for past systems? What happens if my system breaks, is it moral to keep charging me for something I already own just to play it on a new system, or should they give it to me for free since I already own the product.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Nintendo64

[+phoenixdownita]

7 hours ago, 0078265317 said:

That makes sense.  But what if say you have a broken FDS and really want to play doki doki panic.  And your disk is not working error 27.  And I don't want to shell out another 25 dollars for another copy that may or may not work.  Or eBay eventually has no copies left.  Then I have to download a rom.  That is the only way to experience the game.  Or if you don't have an fds int he first place.  And nothing on eBay working is cheap.  Just for one game a rom is better than spending 100 dollars on a FDS with new belt.  

Well, if you really want to

And again why is this a NEED, you don't have to experience it, you want to but that's it .... it so happens there's an easy avenue to it which complicates matters further imho.

 

5 hours ago, Nintendo64 said:

The question was about moral stance, not legal stance. Not all laws are created to fit morality standards. In actuality most laws are created through bribing (lobbying) to help companies make more money, and have nothing to do with morality at all. Have you ever watched a music video on youtube for entertainment that wasn't on the posted by the original artists channel? If so, by your standard its immoral to watch/listen to the video because you don't own the product and are not supporting the original artist. I never said anything about downloading roms as being unlawful, i just stated its not immoral in my opinion.

 

Now if your downloading current roms where companies and employees are still getting paid from the product, i feel that is immoral because people should get paid for their work. Also to flip it around, do you think its moral that a company charges you for the same product over and over again if you purchased it for past systems? What happens if my system breaks, is it moral to keep charging me for something I already own just to play it on a new system, or should they give it to me for free since I already own the product.

I think it is immoral that people have a second or third house they keep empty for 95% of the time so I believe I should be able to use it for free (fixing my mess in case) when they are not there ....  

[mr_me]

10 hours ago, 0078265317 said:

That makes sense.  But what if say you have a broken FDS and really want to play doki doki panic.  And your disk is not working error 27.  And I don't want to shell out another 25 dollars for another copy that may or may not work.  Or eBay eventually has no copies left.  Then I have to download a rom.  That is the only way to experience the game.  Or if you don't have an fds int he first place.  And nothing on eBay working is cheap.  Just for one game a rom is better than spending 100 dollars on a FDS with new belt.  

In the united states there's already copyright laws in place that address it.  You are allowed to make copies of software if it's required to make it run.

[juansolo]

Ressurrecting an old thread here but I think this might be pertinent. My argument for ROMs earlier was preservation and for that to occur, piracy is actually a necessity, more so now than ever...

Take for example Doom Eternal, great game on launch, solid single player experience (I actually prefer 2016 as it's more pure, but I digress). However it launced with Denuvo Anti-Tamper, basically DRM to stop you pirating the game, that requires a connection to the Denuvo servers. Meaning when those servers are gone, you can't. However it released on steam by 'accident' with the non-DRM executable also. Still you then had to connect to Bethesda.net and create an online account to play the game. Again something else that will eventually not exist, again mandatory. Thankfully that was a hex edit away to skip the online requirements.

 

What you now have is a nice all enclosed copy of the game how it should be. The sort of thing you get when you buy a game from GOG (I can't say enough good things about GOG when it comes to old games). Now, they've decided to add further online BS with Denuvo Anti-Cheat, a kernel level program that has unprecidented access to your PC, and also requires an online connection to Denuvo. You cannot opt out of this and it was added retrospectively. If you just want to play Doom single player tough titty, you get this invasive low level program on your PC. To make things worse, you didn't get a say in the matter as they changed the requirements after you bought it.

 

The version of Doom Eternal on my PC is running the non-DRM executable and has the hex-edit to remove the online requirement. Also because I've never allowed it to update, in ten, maybe twenty years time, this version of the game will still be playable.

Edited May 19, 2020 by juansolo

[Tanooki]

So basically without finding a pirate thread online with the correct executable, and an original vanilla install as I imagine the updated one would reject that, the game effectively is garbage on a timer.

 

I guess if I ever want to play it, much like the first one (though I do have it de-installed on Steam) I'll have to buy it on Switch.  I'm not comfy with that low level access beyond the rest of the annoyances.

[juansolo]

It certainly appears that way. The original steam release had the non-DRM executable in the install folder, which was nice They removed that sharpish.

 

I tend to buy most of my PC software on GOG. Most other stuff I get on the consoles to avoid this nonsense.

Edited May 19, 2020 by juansolo

[Tanooki]

Yeah I saw the story about it the day it came out, it was gone in like 12-24hours.  I knew of some form of Denuvo right away, and me thinking most people on FPS games are a-holes in multi I wait until there's at bare minimum 25-33% off sale on a game(FPS, a few other genres too) before buying so it was no bother to me.  I only buy on Steam if there is no other choice because I'm done having multiple consoles at home considering MS put all their stuff on Windows PC(steam, microsoft store) anyway, and I could live just happy without the Sony IP given how shitty I felt they were compared to their PS3 counterparts.  I figure as long as I have a computer that's at least capable of still running a modern game at 30fps steady, low-med settings(being forward thinking here, I can still run stuff like CODWW2 at max at 1080p) and be happy that's good enough for me before considering replacement.  If it weren't for Nintendo having so many excellent first/second party titles, other oddball exclusives, and well the handheld that powerful thing going on I'd be part of the PC master race I imagine, and primarily through GOG with Steam second.

 

[Omega-TI]

If it's a current product or even currently supported.  I'll not have anything to do with them other than buy the product if I want it.

That's one of the nice things about the TI-99/4A.  Texas Instruments washed their hands of it decades ago and they simply do not care.  It's true ABANDON WARE.

[+GoldenWheels]

On 5/19/2020 at 8:23 AM, juansolo said:

Take for example Doom Eternal, great game on launch, solid single player experience (I actually prefer 2016 as it's more pure, but I digress).

AGREED.

 

I'm enjoying Eternal an hour here, an hour there, and it's really good, but the jumping/platforming/climbing elements.....totally could have done without them.