leech Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 1 hour ago, kheller2 said: Now I'm derailing the topic https://rclassiccomputers.com/c128software/ Seems like a lot of dedicated 128 software... but not because of RAM. Thanks for the list! (Just bought a C128 off ebay). Yeah, unlike the 130XE, the C128 actually was a new machine with new capabilities. sure, some people may have just ran it in C64 mode, but with built in 80 column mode, some would have been using that, no? That would have been a killer feature for the 130XE. Also if we had gotten a 800/1200xl keyboard for the 130XE, it would have made a great / cheap word processor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, leech said: Thanks for the list! (Just bought a C128 off ebay). Yeah, unlike the 130XE, the C128 actually was a new machine with new capabilities. sure, some people may have just ran it in C64 mode, but with built in 80 column mode, some would have been using that, no? That would have been a killer feature for the 130XE. Also if we had gotten a 800/1200xl keyboard for the 130XE, it would have made a great / cheap word processor. Some may've used the C128 in 80 columns if they were rich enough to get the rgb monitor with their machine, which wasn't cheap at the time. Most used it with a TV or composite monitor and were limited to 40 columns, negating one of its biggest selling point... This would've applied to the 130XE also if it had an 80 col mode. Edited March 22, 2021 by Tuxon86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Tuxon86 said: Some may've used the C128 in 80 columns if they were rich enough to get the rgb monitor with their machine, which wasn't cheap at the time. Most used it with a TV or composite monitor and were limited to 40 columns, negating one of its biggest selling point... This would've applied to the 130XE also if it had an 80 col mode. Both of these came out in 1985, by which time the RGB monitors were standard with the 16bit machines... so how expensive were they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 49 minutes ago, leech said: Both of these came out in 1985, by which time the RGB monitors were standard with the 16bit machines... so how expensive were they? About the same price of the machine. It was an investment back in the day and the 80's weren't all that great for the working class in North America with the transition from heavy industries. As I said in another thread, back then my father made $300 per week as a boilermaker and once every bills and groceries were paid up he had about $45 left. Not enough to by a C128 + 1571/1541 + rgb monitor or any electronics... We got our first color TV when I was 14, that's in 1979 and we got it because he won it in a draw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 16 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: About the same price of the machine. It was an investment back in the day and the 80's weren't all that great for the working class in North America with the transition from heavy industries. As I said in another thread, back then my father made $300 per week as a boilermaker and once every bills and groceries were paid up he had about $45 left. Not enough to by a C128 + 1571/1541 + rgb monitor or any electronics... We got our first color TV when I was 14, that's in 1979 and we got it because he won it in a draw... Yeah, both of my parents worked throughout the 80s. We mostly all scraped by. I'm pretty sure (though was too young to remember right) that we sold off all our 2600 games (the 2600 was won in a contest) that we'd bought over for a few years to get the 800xl+1050. I think it was later that we got the composite monitor for it. Early 90s were a bit better though, as we got a Mega STe with hard drive and monitor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) Yeah it was real tough going for almost everyone up until about 1983, in 83 things really started to turn around, and by the 90's it was on what seemed like an exponential progression with slight dips along the way but started go badly in 1997,98 by 2003,4 it was terrible again... flat for while then 2008,9,10,11 it was like they burned the economy down, a few years before covid it was looking great again, then covid hurt a bit, but was somehow coming back, flattened and now it's following the same rise in gas and energy prices like before all the other bad times... energy appears to be a choke point... so poor times are here again. I hope it turns around, but it looks like it's going down faster and harder like someone is pouring all that fuel on the fire burning to the ground even faster than before. I hope the best but say prepare for the worst. Edited March 22, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 6 hours ago, kheller2 said: Now I'm derailing the topic https://rclassiccomputers.com/c128software/ Seems like a lot of dedicated 128 software... but not because of RAM. To quote myself: 14 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: and in comparison to the C64 the 128 has almost no native software available for it. The C128 was not a successor to the C64, both weren't even compatible with the C128 running in it's native mode. Compare the amount of software available under the C64 to the amount of software under the C128 and it's obvious the idea of C64 mode while the C128 software library builds up was a total flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 4 hours ago, leech said: Thanks for the list! (Just bought a C128 off ebay). Yeah, unlike the 130XE, the C128 actually was a new machine with new capabilities. sure, some people may have just ran it in C64 mode, but with built in 80 column mode, some would have been using that, no? I never saw anyone use 80 column mode, most didn't even know it existed. It was all about the games with the occasional bout of homework done on the machine, 40 columns was fine for homework and most people used TV's via RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: To quote myself: The C128 was not a successor to the C64, both weren't even compatible with the C128 running in it's native mode. Compare the amount of software available under the C64 to the amount of software under the C128 and it's obvious the idea of C64 mode while the C128 software library builds up was a total flop. It was too little too late, basically. The Amiga was the next big thing that developers went to. Had the C128 / 130XE been released in '84, maybe they would have gotten more developers on board. Kind of the same story with the IIGS, it came out after the black and white mac, was far better than it as well, and actually would allow people familiar with the Apple II develop awesome new things for it... but it was too late to the game, and Apple wanted to push the Mac and people having to re-buy software for the new platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, leech said: It was too little too late, basically. The Amiga was the next big thing that developers went to. Had the C128 / 130XE been released in '84, maybe they would have gotten more developers on board. Kind of the same story with the IIGS, it came out after the black and white mac, was far better than it as well, and actually would allow people familiar with the Apple II develop awesome new things for it... but it was too late to the game, and Apple wanted to push the Mac and people having to re-buy software for the new platform. I think the IIGS was deliberately sabotaged by Steve Jobs in favor of his new Mac. IMO the IIGS was a really good machine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: I think the IIGS was deliberately sabotaged by Steve Jobs in favor of his new Mac. IMO the IIGS was a really good machine. Yeah, there was someone somewhere that was saying that wasn't the case, as he wasn't with Apple at the time? But then it sounds exactly like something he'd do, so not sure what the truth is. I kind of favor the 'ego' causing it's death. It was, in general, a better system than the mac at the time it came out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 There was an explanation and interview saying just that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: There was an explanation and interview saying just that... Yeah, I should find the post again, pretty sure it was on this forum that someone said the story about Jobs' killing off the IIGS wasn't accurate. I still wish the IIGS version of Bard's Tale Trilogy was finished. Apparently the third one was basically done before it got canceled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Yep I think the story was they turned down the frequency and a few other things on the GS, it was beating the pants off of the new mac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, leech said: Yeah, there was someone somewhere that was saying that wasn't the case, as he wasn't with Apple at the time? But then it sounds exactly like something he'd do, so not sure what the truth is. I kind of favor the 'ego' causing it's death. It was, in general, a better system than the mac at the time it came out. Steve Jobs left Apple in September '85, development on the IIGS started in January '85, Steve was totally focused on the Macintosh and as a result gimped the IIGS with a slower clock speed so it wouldn't conflict with Macintosh sales. The IIGS was released in September 86, by which time Steve Jobs had left, with a substantially lower clock speed that the up to 14Mhz than was originally claimed. As a result the IIGS wasn't as good out of the box as people had hoped. Edited March 23, 2021 by Mazzspeed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 11 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: Steve Jobs left Apple in September '85, development on the IIGS started in January '85, Steve was totally focused on the Macintosh and as a result gimped the IIGS with a slower clock speed so it wouldn't conflict with Macintosh sales. The IIGS was released in September 86, by which time Steve Jobs had left, with a substantially lower clock speed that the up to 14Mhz than was originally claimed. As a result the IIGS wasn't as good out of the box as people had hoped. The alt story had it that WDC couldn't produce enough chips at the higher clock speed. sadly, they never did release the 65832 chip, that would have been a 32bit cpu fully compatible with the 6502. Would have been an interesting alternate universe where Apple was the only company that didn't screw over their users by forcing them to rebuy their library of software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, leech said: The alt story had it that WDC couldn't produce enough chips at the higher clock speed. sadly, they never did release the 65832 chip, that would have been a 32bit cpu fully compatible with the 6502. The speculated clock speed was somewhere around 5 - 14 Mhz before release, the actual clock speed on release was 2.8Mhz - That's well, well below the speculated clock speed, 6502's run at 2.2Mhz. I see no reason why at least 4Mhz wouldn't have been possible, and it's widely reported that "Apple increasingly focused on the Macintosh lineup". Which makes perfect sense as the IIGS was Woz's baby and the Macintosh was Steve's baby, and Steve Jobs wasn't a very pleasant man who would have forced things his way. Furthermore, Steve jobs was basically forced to leave Apple between the announcement of the IIGS and the release of the IIGS - There's every possibility Steve's forceful pushing of his baby (being the Macintosh) is the reason for that (among other things). 16 hours ago, leech said: Would have been an interesting alternate universe where Apple was the only company that didn't screw over their users by forcing them to rebuy their library of software. Apple have been screwing their customers since the release of the Macintosh. Steve Jobs was always against upgradeability - He wanted users to ditch the old device for the new device. Such a mantra still reigns with Apple to this day. Having said that, I think it's a good idea that we get back to the OP's topic. Edited March 24, 2021 by Mazzspeed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: Apple have been screwing their customers since the release of the Macintosh. Steve Jobs was always against upgradeability - He wanted users to ditch the old device for the new device. Such a mantra still reigns with Apple to this day. Having said that, I think it's a good idea that we get back to the OP's topic. Agreed with both of those statements! Yeah, there is definitely a list of software that got gimped on the Atari's based on the accepted level of 48kb of available RAM on the 800. Much like some was gimped on the ST for the 512kb a lot had with the 520ST. I have read in some places that this was down to how Atari dealt with developers, but that should have changed when the Tramiels took over, but it seemed to have gotten worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) Our 8 bit GUI from matrix was killed, no competition to the ST. People see how they support the old line and wonder if that's what they can expect from the new line. They wanted cash for everything and provided nothing under Tramiels... Such writings from myself and others exist, so that's as kurt as I'll make it. Edited March 24, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDave Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 I made some atari carts for the first time 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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