eightbit Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Something I always wondered was how exactly my games are still retaining and storing save games on these carts after over 25 years. I always assumed a CR2032 or CR2025 (or equivalent) were being used to store the data just as other console carts and that they would die one day and I would have to damage the label on these carts in order to replace them. Of all of the consoles I have collected for over the years I have never taken apart a Jaguar game as it meant ruining the label....and I don't want to do that! Well, tonight, after so many years I have learned (from online research, thankfully not from damaging a label and taking a game apart) that the saves are stored via flash. From what I read they can withstand 100,000 writes give or take. This puts things in my mind in an entirely new perspective. Why didn't everybody do this back then? I have had to replace coin cells in carts from the era a decade ago...and they probably need replacing yet again. But these fantastic Jag carts....no leaking, no replacing...they just save and store saves and life is good. I don't think this point is driven home often....maybe people never think about it. But man, the decision to use flash for saves was really forward thinking. Really really cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Lots of games used EEPROMs back then. I wouldn't say it was the most common type, but plenty of 8 and 16 bit games from Sega and Nintendo used EEPROMs. The biggest reasons why more didn't were size and price: EEPROMs were tiny (measured in bits, not bytes), and very expensive. It was much cheaper to use an sram and a battery than an EEPROM. It also gave you far more save memory. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Chilly Willy said: Lots of games used EEPROMs back then. I wouldn't say it was the most common type, but plenty of 8 and 16 bit games from Sega and Nintendo used EEPROMs. The biggest reasons why more didn't were size and price: EEPROMs were tiny (measured in bits, not bytes), and very expensive. It was much cheaper to use an sram and a battery than an EEPROM. It also gave you far more save memory. I'm not saying you're wrong, but name some SNES and Genesis games that used EEPROMS to save games. Because, I've replaced tons of batteries in many of the most popular titles of the day. Games such as Donkey Kong Country, Super Punchout, Zelda: Link To The Past, Super Mario World, Super Mario All-Stars, SimCity and Final Fantasy III just as examples. Those are all AAA software titles by the big developers. If anyone could afford to use EEPROMS (if price was indeed a factor), it would have been Nintendo and Square don't you think? Actually, I can't think of a single SNES game that has a save feature that didn't have a battery. If the game didn't have a battery, it has a really annoying password feature. Lucas Arts games used a password save, so did Electronic Arts with their Strike series. Konami used a password for Castlevania IV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bratwurst Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 NES and SNES I'm not aware of using anything other than battery backed ram for saving game progress. The Sega Genesis featured some games with types of eeprom saving, but they were a handful compared to the majority that still used battery backup. Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Mega Man Wily Wars, Greatest Heavyweights, NBA Jam that I know of, but there are others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) Hmm - checking again, I was mistaken about the SNES. For some reason, I thought they had some EEPROM games. Here's a list of all the Genesis games that used EEPROM. Not huge, but not insignificant either. NBA Jam NBA Jam Tournament Edition NFL Quarterback Club NFL Quarterback Club 96 College Slam Frank Thomas Big Hurt Baseball NHL PA Hockey 93 Rings of Power Evander 'Real Deal' Holyfield's Boxin Greatest Heavyweights of the Ring Wonder Boy in Monster World Wonder Boy V - Monster World III Sports Talk Baseball Megaman - The Wily Wars Rockman Mega World Micro Machines 2 - Turbo Tournament Micro Machines Military Micro Machines Turbo Tournament 96 Brian Lara Cricket 96 Shane Warne Cricket EDIT: Sonic 3 used FRAM, not EEPROM. FRAM is like SRAM, but non-volatile. You can still get FRAM today. Another form of non-volatile SRAM you can get is MRAM. Edited May 10, 2020 by Chilly Willy More info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Interesting list, I don't own a single one of those on cartridge. No wonder I wasn't aware of them having non-battery save features. I think the OP's point is a good one though, as Atari didn't put a single battery in any Jaguar game, or any other game cartridge they ever produced aside from the 7800 High Score Cartridge (That I'm aware of). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightbit Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Kobra Kai said: Interesting list, I don't own a single one of those on cartridge. No wonder I wasn't aware of them having non-battery save features. I think the OP's point is a good one though, as Atari didn't put a single battery in any Jaguar game, or any other game cartridge they ever produced aside from the 7800 High Score Cartridge (That I'm aware of). And thank you Atari for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Yeah, making it the default type of save ram was thinking ahead. Prices would drop on EEPROM, allowing larger sizes at lower prices. But the Jaguar never really broke into the mainstream. Sega wound up using a battery backed SRAM in the Saturn, which I've replaced the battery for a number of times. The VMU for the Dreamcast burns through batteries like no one's business. So Sega never really learned anything. Sony did - the PS1/PS2 used flash memory for saving. The PS3 has some internal flash, and allowed external USB sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightbit Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 Batteries were all around a bad idea. I have actually found some CR2032 batteries that leaked. I have never seen that before, but I guess whatever conditions they were under caused it. And you don;t have to tell me about the VMU batteries....what a joke. At least that still worked in the controller without the batteries It is however a big relief to know that I will not have to do anything to the Jaguar games to fix any saving problems. Really fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 18 hours ago, Chilly Willy said: The VMU for the Dreamcast burns through batteries like no one's business. So Sega never really learned anything. They sort of did. Working VMU batteries are not a requirement to retain Dreamcast game save files, unlike the Saturn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 49 minutes ago, Austin said: They sort of did. Working VMU batteries are not a requirement to retain Dreamcast game save files, unlike the Saturn. Was just about to post this myself. The Batteries were only needed for RTC functions in the VMU and I suppose a few other things but far as I know game saves didn't use the VMU batteries at all and I don't think I ever bothered to replace the batteries in mine when they died and my saves are still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Austin said: They sort of did. Working VMU batteries are not a requirement to retain Dreamcast game save files, unlike the Saturn. Yeah you just have to put up with loud BEEEEEEEEEP!!!! every time you power up the system, when the batteries in the VMU are dead. My microwave is less annoying. Edited May 11, 2020 by Kobra Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Kobra Kai said: Yeah you just have to put up with loud BEEEEEEEEEP!!!! every time you power up the system, when the batteries in the VMU are dead. Yeah, you're right about that. The saves aren't part of the battery backup, just the RTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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