What's the deal with Jag prices on the used market?

[Warmsignal]

Historically speaking, they've always been pretty high relative to the prices of other consoles and games. When I initially picked up one in the early 2010s, I scored a pretty good deal getting my system with a game at just $60. Even then, in 2012 or so, $60 was pretty steep for a used retro console found "in the wild". So after I first got my console, I also wanted to get some games for it and the only place to turn was eBay. At that point in time, I didn't buy a lot of games from eBay because game hunting in the wild was still a thing, and I was used to scoring good stuff for very little money. So when I saw what the games were going for online, I was turned off and never pursued it any further. My mindset has of course changed since then, as times have changed, and retro stuff isn't a cheap hobby anymore.

 

One thing I did notice back then that I didn't understand, is a trend that still carries on to this day - people selling used Jag stuff and asking the same or in some cases even more than the NOS that is available, which makes absolutely no sense on the second hand market of any kind of goods. Why buy the pre-owned one when the new one is basically the same price, or less? Can't say I've ever heard of an instance where so much NOS has been widely available, yet the going rate for used is still very high as well. My thought process is - if someone is selling a CIB used game for $80 and the NOS is $100, I'll just buy the NOS. It's in way better condition, majority of the time. At some point the trade off of "cheaper" just isn't worth it where the price difference in an expensive item is negligible. Alas, listings of high priced wares continue, and people do buy them. With most other consoles abundance brings a price down, and especially NOS which is a rarity in most cases. It would be like if a used CIB copy of Super Mario World would go for $700 because the sealed ones go for about $800. But that doesn't happen, typically. A CIB copy of SMW is a fraction of the sealed one. At the very least, I would never expect it to be very close in price.

 

So why does the Jaguar market ignore the bounty and still fetch good money for used, or otherwise abundant stuff?

Edited May 13, 2020 by Warmsignal

[eightbit]

There are too many variables to list as to why these things happen. Sometimes people are not aware that a NOS piece is available before they go ahead and buy a used one at the same price (or even higher) than a new one. This has happened to me in the past... so I am sure it has happened to others.

 

Some other times, NOS parts are not available, and then become available later. It leads buyers to believe it is "out of stock for good" and then they clamor to find any version of it...be it used with no box, instructions, etc. MyAtari (B&C) will list a quantity of some new item (take Ruiner Pinball for example) and when they run out the used copies on ebay start hiking up the price. A smart move would be to reach out to the NOS seller and see if they have more. I did just that and received this title brand new for $20 less than what some loose used copy was selling for.

 

I also see prices a bit differently. If a nice condition game is $80 CIB or a new one is $100 NOS...I might just go for the CIB. Because the way I see it I am saving 20%, and if buying on ebay the tax plays a factor. Also, that NOS seller might be charging for shipping whereas the CIB seller is offering free shipping therefore ending up saving me enough to perhaps buy another game. 

 

As for the console itself, I do not recall being able to pick one up for $60 in 2012. Not even in 2007. I recall seeing them locally at Digital Press store for $140 around 2007. So if you scored one in 2012 for $60 it was a steal then  Realistically today you are probably looking at the $200-$250 range for a console with a controller, PSU, RF unit...and maybe a game.

[+LS650]

What NOS..?  Can you give an example?

[Warmsignal]

2 hours ago, ls650 said:

What NOS..?  Can you give an example?

I mean like games still in the shrink wrap (most likely from Atari's massive liquidation back in the day), which is not uncommon for some Jag stuff. Take Doom for example. If a NIB copy sells for $120, then why in the world is a cart only copy valued at $70? Judging from what I know about other retro game prices - if a sealed one is $120, a complete and mint copy might be $50-$60, and a cart only would be maybe $20-$25... but good luck finding a Doom cart only for $25. It just doesn't follow the logic of most other retro collecting markets where loose, complete, and new are entirely different ball parks. With Jaguar, it's like all are in the same ballpark.

[phoenixdownita]

There's no rime or reason, it simply is.

 

Buy or Buy Not, there's no why!

[eightbit]

Well, its not in the same ball park. Other cart consoles that have "Doom" for example are much more common. The Jaguar and the games themselves are much less common than SNES or Genesis games. This is evident by how many you see listed on ebay, here in the AA marketplace, locally (if you have a game store that sells vintage titles) and so on. While a copy of a particular game (like Doom) will be easy to obtain on the SNES (there are nearly 100 copies on Ebay right now) the same title may be more difficult to find (I count around 15 copies currently on ebay, and some are using stock pictures).

 

So, you can't compare to other retro collecting markets. The Jaguar was a niche thing when it was new... and even more so now. Bottom line is that the Jag is in the arena of collecting that you would find yourself with any other niche console (Neo Geo Pocket, Neo Geo, etc) and while not nearly even remotely as expensive as Neo-Geo, it has a value for people wanting games for this specific platform. Not only do you have to do the math, but you have to pay to play

[Chilly Willy]

7 hours ago, eightbit said:

The Jaguar and the games themselves are much less common than SNES or Genesis games.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Any kind of Jaguar item is simply rare enough to make it valuable regardless of its state. It's like the Dreamcast BBA - it's so rare that even a used one in poor condition is worth more than everything else Dreamcast related put together.

 

[Warmsignal]

10 hours ago, eightbit said:

Well, its not in the same ball park. Other cart consoles that have "Doom" for example are much more common. The Jaguar and the games themselves are much less common than SNES or Genesis games. This is evident by how many you see listed on ebay, here in the AA marketplace, locally (if you have a game store that sells vintage titles) and so on. While a copy of a particular game (like Doom) will be easy to obtain on the SNES (there are nearly 100 copies on Ebay right now) the same title may be more difficult to find (I count around 15 copies currently on ebay, and some are using stock pictures).

 

So, you can't compare to other retro collecting markets. The Jaguar was a niche thing when it was new... and even more so now. Bottom line is that the Jag is in the arena of collecting that you would find yourself with any other niche console (Neo Geo Pocket, Neo Geo, etc) and while not nearly even remotely as expensive as Neo-Geo, it has a value for people wanting games for this specific platform. Not only do you have to do the math, but you have to pay to play

I can see that, but the only snag in this theory is other obscure consoles like Saturn, aren't so much like this. Any Saturn game is technically rare compared to a PlayStation or N64 game - I've personally almost never seen anything Saturn in the wild. Still, disc only prices significantly differ from CIB. Although with Saturn, sealed games are extremely rare and they're much more valuable most of the time. I'd imagine though if sellers had abundances or NOS Saturn games, a lot of the prices would be much lower on the used market. Maybe not?

 

It's just hard for me to justify buying used wares when new is not significantly more. To me, the new ought to be worth a heck of a lot more, or the used should yield to those prices rather than charging basically the same.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Warmsignal

[RREDDWARFF]

I too don't get the price variance on used vs new Jaguar games. I guess it's just supply and demand. Like you said, there are still a lot of sealed copies of certain Jag games floating around out there. Some games have a spread of just a few dollars whether new or used, whereas others seem to have a huge gap in pricing. I-War for example seems to have a large gap in pricing between NOS and used/complete. 

 

What I don't understand even more though is the inflation. Why are the prices increasing so quickly, and that's not just for the Jaguar, it's ridiculous. I love my Jaguar, but come on, they're just video games. Some items are getting so pricey that it's taking the fun out of it. I recently purchased a Jag CD unit in a large bundle on Ebay. I enjoyed playing it and I really liked a few of the games, but every time I got near the thing I was paranoid. I ended up just selling it. I figured I got a chance to play it, but I'd rather get out while I was ahead, before the thing broke. 

[eightbit]

I agree that the JagCD price is absurd. I purchased one new from Best about 10 years ago (and I think I paid $400 for it then) and it arrived non-functional. I exchanged it and received a working one, but sold it not too long after as I was just afraid it would just stop working and I would be left with a paperweight. I mean, there must be people out there with the ability to fix these as I now as BROKEN units on ebay sell for $500+, but nope...not me. Optical stuff has never been my strength when it comes to repairs.

 

When the GD comes out we won't have to worry about that anyway

 

[Warmsignal]

43 minutes ago, RREDDWARFF said:

I too don't get the price variance on used vs new Jaguar games. I guess it's just supply and demand. Like you said, there are still a lot of sealed copies of certain Jag games floating around out there. Some games have a spread of just a few dollars whether new or used, whereas others seem to have a huge gap in pricing. I-War for example seems to have a large gap in pricing between NOS and used/complete. 

 

What I don't understand even more though is the inflation. Why are the prices increasing so quickly, and that's not just for the Jaguar, it's ridiculous. I love my Jaguar, but come on, they're just video games. Some items are getting so pricey that it's taking the fun out of it. I recently purchased a Jag CD unit in a large bundle on Ebay. I enjoyed playing it and I really liked a few of the games, but every time I got near the thing I was paranoid. I ended up just selling it. I figured I got a chance to play it, but I'd rather get out while I was ahead, before the thing broke. 

The retro collecting bubble I believe, is about to reach it's peak. I think that mostly everyone who's wanted to get into collecting the old stuff had done so by now, and I really don't think that the younger kids (gen z'ers) are going to be as interested in physical retro collections. I've also heard a lot of talk from gen x'ers and millennials considering to dump their physical collections in favor of flash carts. So I think we're about to reach a point where some of the supply is going to start coming back in, while demand decreases.

Popular consoles have seen a plateau effect, while the more obscure ones are rising as collectors tap out of collecting for the obvious platforms. For example, everyone already has everything they can reasonable afford on SNES, so now they want another console to focus on, so they turn to something like the Game Boy, or the Jaguar which we now see are both on the rise. Eventually, we'll all run out of different console alternatives to collect, and a good number of us will probably throw in the towel and dump our collections onto the market around the same time. Some are already doing this, others while others are just turning to different consoles.

[RREDDWARFF]

11 minutes ago, eightbit said:

 

When the GD comes out we won't have to worry about that anyway

 

Has it been confirmed then that the GD cart will play Jag CD games? The last I heard it was a work in progress. 

[eightbit]

Just now, RREDDWARFF said:

Has it been confirmed then that the GD cart will play Jag CD games? The last I heard it was a work in progress. 

 

I haven't followed much but last I saw there were titles running on the GD via a youtube video with the developer, but I am not one to say at all how far development has gone in that regard. But if I were to make a guess we will see it happen....I'm pretty hopeful of that!

[RREDDWARFF]

7 minutes ago, Warmsignal said:

Eventually, we'll all run out of different console alternatives to collect, and a good number of us will probably throw in the towel and dump our collections onto the market around the same time. Some are already doing this, others while others are just turning to different consoles.

I hope so. With the prices the way they are, it wouldn't take much for someone to destroy their life financially. 

[Warmsignal]

Yeah I feel like Jag prices are teetering right along the border of unforgivable for most, somewhere between Saturn and Neo Geo, when most of the best games are near $100, or better. It doesn't help that it's one of those consoles with a small library. That just encourages completionist collectors to try and get a copy of every single game and those types usually will pay whatever it takes to accomplish that goal, inflating the demand and values along the way.

[joeatari1]

I have been collecting for the Jag for about 15 years and just finished my CD collection this year.  Carts are another story.  I'm still missing quite a few.  I feel I got a good deal on most of my systems and games but still, prices have become very prohibitive in the last 5-8 years.

[Hyper_Eye]

59 minutes ago, Warmsignal said:

The retro collecting bubble I believe, is about to reach it's peak. I think that mostly everyone who's wanted to get into collecting the old stuff had done so by now, and I really don't think that the younger kids (gen z'ers) are going to be as interested in physical retro collections. I've also heard a lot of talk from gen x'ers and millennials considering to dump their physical collections in favor of flash carts. So I think we're about to reach a point where some of the supply is going to start coming back in, while demand decreases.

Popular consoles have seen a plateau effect, while the more obscure ones are rising as collectors tap out of collecting for the obvious platforms. For example, everyone already has everything they can reasonable afford on SNES, so now they want another console to focus on, so they turn to something like the Game Boy, or the Jaguar which we now see are both on the rise. Eventually, we'll all run out of different console alternatives to collect, and a good number of us will probably throw in the towel and dump our collections onto the market around the same time. Some are already doing this, others while others are just turning to different consoles.

I have been collecting for Jaguar since it was on store shelves. Once the bargain pricing ended prices have only ever gone in one direction. Jaguar seems impervious to market trends. People have long predicted the peak of Jaguar prices and it defies those predictions again and again. Maybe you're right or maybe the Jaguar is just an enigma.

[Warmsignal]

37 minutes ago, Hyper_Eye said:

I have been collecting for Jaguar since it was on store shelves. Once the bargain pricing ended prices have only ever gone in one direction. Jaguar seems impervious to market trends. People have long predicted the peak of Jaguar prices and it defies those predictions again and again. Maybe you're right or maybe the Jaguar is just an enigma.

There's actually one example I can think of that strangely follows the trend of seal = holy grail, and that is AvP. It's loads more expensive NIB than a CIB one. Going by Jaguar market logic, it should only be about $150, but instead the prices are more like $450 even though the sealed ones don't seem to be all that scarce.

[PFG 9000]

6 hours ago, Warmsignal said:

I can see that, but the only snag in this theory is other obscure consoles like Saturn, aren't so much like this. Any Saturn game is technically rare compared to a PlayStation or N64 game - I've personally almost never seen anything Saturn in the wild. Still, disc only prices significantly differ from CIB. Although with Saturn, sealed games are extremely rare and they're much more valuable most of the time. I'd imagine though if sellers had abundances or NOS Saturn games, a lot of the prices would be much lower on the used market. Maybe not?

The Saturn wasn't as big as the Playstation or N64, but it was comparable.  The Jaguar was not.  The Saturn was far more successful than the Jaguar.  You can't compare the obscurity of the two.

 

Also, I see Saturn stuff in nearly every used game store I walk into.  I hardly ever see Jaguar stuff anymore.

[PFG 9000]

2 hours ago, Warmsignal said:

There's actually one example I can think of that strangely follows the trend of seal = holy grail, and that is AvP. It's loads more expensive NIB than a CIB one. Going by Jaguar market logic, it should only be about $150, but instead the prices are more like $450 even though the sealed ones don't seem to be all that scarce.

The value of a sealed Jaguar AvP just shot up tremendously in the past year or so.  Prior to that, it hovered around the $100-150 range for many years.   I only know because I bought one about 5 years ago and I've watched the value ever since. 

[eightbit]

It's also sh*tty sellers buying into "this is hot now" and hiking prices. Case in point. I made a more than fair offer on a game on ebay recently and the seller countered with an outrageous price and a message saying "This is the price. The Jaguar is the new Neo-Geo".

 

 

[eightbit]

There is also something else I would like to point out that may be a part of the driving force when it comes to the prices of these titles. Emulation or FPGA simulation....or lack thereof. Atari Jaguar software emulation has been sub-par for years and still is. The MiSTer core is in the same boat with no real progress in years. So, the only way to actually play a game such as AvP and most others "properly" is to have a real console and the real game....or at least the real console and a Skunk or GD (or a bootleg of the game) at this point. It is nowhere near as easy to play these games outside of the real hardware as it is many other consoles. This also holds true for the Saturn and a few select consoles left in which emulation or FPGA simulation just does not cut it.

 

Not to say the games will "lose value" when emulation or simulation hits a point of near perfection, but it will certainly weed out those people who just want to "play the game" and not spend any money. When the day that everyone can play that specific Jag title perfectly on non-Jag hardware and without the need to buy the expensive game all that will be left are the true Jaguar collectors. And, the people who did pay into these games that are not really "collectors" so to speak will start offloading their cartridge and CD collections as they will feel that they no longer need them to enjoy those games.

 

So in essence it is my belief that these games and hardware are commanding such high prices right now because people have little to no alternative. Just my two cents

Edited May 15, 2020 by eightbit

[RREDDWARFF]

I too get frustrated with crappy sellers on Ebay. There seems to be quite a handful these days. I don't mind the crazy prices, they just make me laugh. What I do mind is, like you were saying, the crappy-ass attitudes. Many sellers seem to have an obnoxious, "If you don't like it, go F yourself," attitude and asking any questions are usually followed by the most minimalist answers or they are not answered at all.

 

That is a prime example of the plague of increasing prices/values on video games. In this case, for the Atari Jaguar. We are not often dealing with enthusiasts like ourselves. We are typically dealing with some jack-ass who follows suit with everyone else's Buy It Now price instead of actually doing some research. They can easily do this by looking at actual numbers of what these games sell for. There are websites that are made specifically to do this. This irritation is further fueled by uneducated, impulsive or impatient buyers who either are new to collecting for the Jaguar, see only one listed so therefore assume it's worth a high value, or have been waiting on a particular game, but haven't seen it around recently for a reasonable price and need it now. In other words, they have no patience. 

 

I know that there is a plethora of other reasons why buyers and sellers do what they do, but this is an example and my take on the situation. 

[eightbit]

Agreed. The biggest mistake I see from sellers is that they look at what similar listing are "asking". I always explain that "asking" and "getting" are two different things. They don;t even need to look at any outside website if they are that lazy. Just advanced search on ebay and check sold listings for the past few months. You can get a pretty good idea of what people are actually willing to pay (and have paid) by doing that.

 

Reminds me of a time once where a friend and I traveled to a vintage game store in NJ that was a bit of a journey....like an hour and a half. When we got there my friend say a new in box Super Action Controller set for Colecovision with no price on it. We asked the store owner how much and he told us to hold on while he "checked ebay". I was pretty turned off at that and refused to buy anything there myself, but my friend wanted those controllers. They guy came back with "it's going for this"...and then I asked him the question as to how exactly he was checking ebay. He was checking current BIN listings....not actual sold listings. When he checked the sold he realized they typically sell for a lot less than what he was just about to charge my friend.

 

Sometimes I just hate ebay.

[Warmsignal]

Oh, wow. I thought it was a one-off case for me. I recently sent an offer on a Jag game which I felt was priced a bit high, and I politely commented with references on how I came to my offer price (which was about 85% of his asking price). He counters back with his same asking price, commenting back if he can't get exactly what he is asking for it, then he'd rather keep it and go put it back into storage. He wanted to make sure I knew the copy was going to go to complete waste and be forgotten about if I didn't give him every penny of what he felt entitled to... instead of just saying "Sorry, but I can't go any lower than this." Guess he thought he was lording it over me, or something. Kind of annoying, but also kind of pathetic at the same time.