What makes a system "Retro" - open discussion

[XtraSmiley]

11 hours ago, Magmavision2000 said:

Here's my criteria for a retro console:

 

1. It cannot have any official new games being released for it (duh!)

 

2. The system has to be unsupported for at least 10 years

 

3. If it has online capabilities, it must be no longer supported by the official company

 

4. It has to have an emulator

 

 

By these criteria, the PS2, Xbox, GameCube,  Dreamcast, and GBA era are the most recent retro consoles and the next generation will be completely retro in 2029-2030 (?). Of course, this is subject to change (I've heard that the PS3's PSN is the same as the PS4's PSN, so it may never go offline).

Well by your own definition wouldn't the Dreamcast not be retro because a new game is about to come out for it (Xenocrisis). Unless by official, you mean something like the original console creators have approved it?

Edited May 27, 2020 by XtraSmiley

[Magmavision2000]

32 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

Well by your own definition wouldn't the Dreamcast not be retro because a new game is about to come out for it (Xenocrisis). Unless by official, you mean something like the original console creators have approved it?

Yes, it has to be officially licensed by the console creator (in this case, sega). Bonus points if it gets a retail release.

 

Although that brings up another question, if the original company licenses homebrew for a retro console, would that system be no longer retro? Can systems stop being retro?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Magmavision2000

[BassGuitari]

15 years or more since original release. Simple as that.

 

Y'all are seriously overthinking this. ?

[Magmavision2000]

2 hours ago, BassGuitari said:

15 years or more since original release. Simple as that.

 

Y'all are seriously overthinking this. ?

But what if the system is still supported and has games being officially released? Take the 360 for example, it's 15 years old, but it's still supported by Microsoft (as of 5/27/20), is that retro?

[Steven Pendleton]

8 minutes ago, Magmavision2000 said:

But what if the system is still supported and has games being officially released? Take the 360 for example, it's 15 years old, but it's still supported by Microsoft (as of 5/27/20), is that retro?

This actually brings up another question, as well. What is "support"? If you go to Nintendo USA's website, they still have support pages for all of their systems that got a US release. Does that count?

 

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/other/index.jsp

 

I have a feeling that it doesn't since they do not actually service these systems, but I think it might be interesting to discuss this aspect, as well, since they do offer troubleshooting assistance to a limited extent.

 

  

2 hours ago, Magmavision2000 said:

Yes, it has to be officially licensed by the console creator (in this case, sega).

Missed this. Anyway, this is why I mentioned Darius on the Mega Drive Mini/Genesis Mini. It's a new official game released by Sega and it absolutely runs on the real hardware. Does that make the Genesis/MD not retro?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[Magmavision2000]

11 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

This actually brings up another question, as well. What is "support"? If you go to Nintendo USA's website, they still have support pages for all of their systems that got a US release. Does that count?

 

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/other/index.jsp

 

I have a feeling that it doesn't since they do not actually service these systems, but I think it might be interesting to discuss this aspect, as well, since they do offer troubleshooting assistance to a limited extent.

Yes and no, I mean, they technically do still "support" those systems, but the info they give you probably isn't any better (or worse) than what you can find by doing a quick google search. A system isn't retro if you can still get it officially repaired (which in Nintendo's case, the DS is the oldest system they'll repair).

 

 

Off-topic, but next time anyone has a Virtual Boy problem, call Nintendo and see what advice they give you.

[Steven Pendleton]

1 minute ago, Magmavision2000 said:

Yes and no, I mean, they technically do still "support" those systems, but the info they give you probably isn't any better (or worse) than what you can find by doing a quick google search. A system isn't retro if you can still get it officially repaired (which in Nintendo's case, the DS is the oldest system they'll repair).

Yeah, I like this. As we both said, what very little support they give for this stuff is extremely limited, and you'd probably be better off with an internet search, but I find it very interesting that they still have pages for each of these old systems going back all the way to the NES. Huge bonus points for having the GBA SP running Zero Mission!

 

3 minutes ago, Magmavision2000 said:

Off-topic, but next time anyone has a Virtual Boy problem, call Nintendo and see what advice they give you.

I can more or less guarantee that the people at Nintendo support won't even know what the Virtual Boy is! Would be interesting, though.

[carlsson]

6 hours ago, Magmavision2000 said:

it has to be officially licensed by the console creator

Would it be enough if they licensed the use of the name? I mean with all the crazy penny squeezing tactics current day Atari SA are employing, they might just as well license the brand name to a publisher of aftermarket games (those most people would call homebrew, but at a higher level of recognition). From the outside it would look like Atari just released brand new 2600 cartridges, even sold through a few retro gaming vendors. I don't know if a such move would make us think less of the 2600 as a classic system.

 

But yeah, your criteria perhaps only apply to continuous games publishing on the previous to current generation, and once the manufacturer has ceased issuing games, your first clause is checked and can't be unchecked if they changed their mind two years later.

[XtraSmiley]

What about a simple, 2 cycles back. Xbox One = current. Xbox 360 = not retro. Xbox = retro.

[IntelliMission]

I don't know what officially makes a system retro: all I know is that I could never, ever call a 3D game without pixelation or heavily blurred textures "retro". My mind refuses to consider Sonic Adventure, Half Life or Metal Gear Solid 2 "retro".

[BassGuitari]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:27 PM, Magmavision2000 said:

But what if the system is still supported and has games being officially released? Take the 360 for example, it's 15 years old, but it's still supported by Microsoft (as of 5/27/20), is that retro?

Irrelevant. 15 years. That's about how long it takes for a system to go from 1) a pillar of its zeitgeist, to 2) obsolescent thrift store fodder, to 3) source of wistful reminiscence. ?

 

Nintendo didn't officially cease support of the Famicom until 2003. ?‍♂️

[Steven Pendleton]

I realized something interesting. Outside of this topic, I do not believe I have ever once referred to old games as "retro". Instead, I simply call them "old".

[carlsson]

3 hours ago, BassGuitari said:

Nintendo didn't officially cease support of the Famicom until 2003.

Oh yes, what about 3rd party publishers once recognized by the original manufacturer? I am not thinking about pirates, but like when Capcom re-issued a limited edition of DuckTales for the NES in 2013. I suppose to some degree they got an OK from Nintendo to do this, which would mean the last "official" NES game was only 7 years ago.

[derFunkenstein]

I think retro is a mix of a system has been replaced by another console for 12-15 years, and for kids that played it new to be adults with disposable income to buy one to relive their childhood. Weird edge cases about "supporting" the Famicom until 2003 are fun to use as a way to ruin someone's argument, but the system was still retro by then. The GameCube, original Xbox, and PS2 are entering their retro stage, because they've all been supplanted for at least that long. The N64, PS1, and Dreamcast (all of which lost first party support roughly 18 years ago) are all there, and the Saturn was EOL'd even longer ago than that. 

 

The 360 and PS3 will achieve retro status in probably 6-7 years. The people who played those systems as kids are in their early 20s now. Once they've got the disposable income, there'll be a mild run on them. The difference in this is that the Xbox Series X is going continue playing 360 games, so there's a chance the hardware won't see a resurgence even if games do. Microsoft is promising that at least some games will run *better* on Series X than 360, though that obviously remains to be seen. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by derFunkenstein

[carlsson]

3 hours ago, derFunkenstein said:

Microsoft is promising that at least some games will run *better* on Series X than 360, though that obviously remains to be seen.

How large percentage of the 360 and PS3 games, between thumb and the index finger, can be played offline so those can be enjoyed for decades after the online servers have shut down, which most probably they will if they already haven't? The mere thought of systems that to most part relies on the Internet in order to play the games, both in terms of downloading updates from what was on the original disc, and playing on a server against other people, makes me think few of those ever will be considered classic/retro/vintage/whatever in the same sense as 1990's and earlier systems where networking at best was a luxury addition, not a basic component of the game.

Edited May 29, 2020 by carlsson

[Mikebloke]

Although the games might remain compatable with new consoles. The consoles themselves may reach retro status. There was something the other day about original x box live features being rebuilt to access specific things, and there is already fan operated servers for things like metal gear online even though Konami has killed it long ago. In that sense, some of them have probably already reached specialist status that might be more suited to someone who might be regarded as a vintage collector, as it requires some degree of specialist knowledge to bodge a system to think it's going to Konami.jp when instead it's heading somewhere else. 

[Lord Mushroom]

16 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I realized something interesting. Outside of this topic, I do not believe I have ever once referred to old games as "retro". Instead, I simply call them "old".

I rarely call them retro either (outside this thread). Like you I call them old. Calling a game or console retro just seems like you are trying too hard to make an old game or console cool. I think the term retro-gaming is a good one, though. It is snappy and everybody knows what you are talking about.

[Magmavision2000]

I just call all of my systems and games; "games", no matter what era they're from. I think this thread is the most I've used the term "retro".

[Warmsignal]

My arbitrary dictation on retro is that it's at least 20 - 25 years old, whether that's gaming or anything else of vintage. It has to be old enough that it could passed down to a new generation that was either too young, or not around when the retro thing was current. Any sooner than that and it would be simply aging, or outdated. I wouldn't regard anything that just went out of style to be retro, that's a little silly. Windows 7 is not "retro" by any means. It's just outdated, and no longer the standard. Windows 95? That's retro. Retro is a moving target, and it's also a misnomer. Retro means a modern interpretation of something old, not the actual original article. For example, you might find a retro 60s lamp at Target, but you won't actually find a 60s era lamp at Target. We don't retro game, unless we're playing a new game that's very retro in style. We play classic, legacy, or just plain old video games, for the most part.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Warmsignal

[+sixersfan105]

On 5/25/2020 at 12:32 PM, c0op3r said:

So I brought a version of this question in the Wii Forum a while back about the Wii and why it has not been moved to 'Retro' Status.  Then I was watching RetroRGB (youtube) the other night and someone posed a similar question to Bob, I found the answer interesting, in short he did not have a definitive answer but made an interesting point.

 

So to me what makes a system or machine Retro?

 

1) No longer support by or having software produced by the first party - helps if they have produced a replacement (ie Playstation 1 there is a 2, 3 etc so the Playstion meets this requirement).

2) Does not have a digital video output (this was the point brought up by Bob of RetroRGB) - I found this to be a great point as all modern systems have some sort of Digital video output.

 

I would love to hear other thoughts on this, and where you draw the line for retro.

 

Cooper

Gotta be time and time alone. Obviously time helps with your #1 above. #2 is going to become ridiculous in time. Are you referring to HDMI and above as digital? That may apply today, but down the road, the bar will certainly have to move on this.
 

This comes up from time to time on the AtariAge Marketplace Facebook group. Guys get upset that Gameboy games are offered for sale on there. Umm, all classic game systems are welcome on there and it was for sale for a time concurrently with the Atari 7800, so to not call it retro would be absurd. Basically, some people get upset if something they personally didn't grow up with is considered retro, but - newsflash - none of us are getting any younger and lots more systems are considered retro than we'd like to believe. My personal take is anything PS3 and older is retro. *drops mic*

[+GoldLeader]

If a system has photorealistic games...I'm not calling it "retro"...

 

 

 

One last blurb before I exit...

 

 

The PS2 will Never be Retro!   It doesn't matter if the year is 2050 and the robots have taken over and Skynet has gone live and The Animatrix is now considered a History Lesson...And if  humans are underground...Playing Twisted Metal Black in dark caves with quiet generators so not to disturb the new overlords...And one man child, wearing more leather than an 80's Motley Crue concert, says to another in the shadows before the campfire,  Or maybe I should say bonfire, given the Apocalytpic nature of everything now, and the fact that it's in a barrel,  "Should we play some 'Retro' games?"

 

"Sure,  what's your pleasure?"

 

The other holds up an Atari VCS (2600, as if I have to add this),  a Turbograx, and a SNES...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Punisher5.0]

On 5/29/2020 at 1:34 PM, carlsson said:

How large percentage of the 360 and PS3 games, between thumb and the index finger, can be played offline so those can be enjoyed for decades after the online servers have shut down, which most probably they will if they already haven't? The mere thought of systems that to most part relies on the Internet in order to play the games, both in terms of downloading updates from what was on the original disc, and playing on a server against other people, makes me think few of those ever will be considered classic/retro/vintage/whatever in the same sense as 1990's and earlier systems where networking at best was a luxury addition, not a basic component of the game.

I dont know about the 360 but I do know that most PS3 games dont need the internet to work. 

[The Usotsuki]

To me, "retro" is anything up to the time 3D about completely took over (around the PS1 era).

 

And "oldies" ends at 1967, and "classic rock" is specifically 1967-1977.

[derFunkenstein]

On 5/29/2020 at 1:34 PM, carlsson said:

How large percentage of the 360 and PS3 games, between thumb and the index finger, can be played offline so those can be enjoyed for decades after the online servers have shut down, which most probably they will if they already haven't? The mere thought of systems that to most part relies on the Internet in order to play the games, both in terms of downloading updates from what was on the original disc, and playing on a server against other people, makes me think few of those ever will be considered classic/retro/vintage/whatever in the same sense as 1990's and earlier systems where networking at best was a luxury addition, not a basic component of the game.

That certainly remains to be seen. The concept of the day-one update for games started with the 360/PS3/Wii and we've already seen fairly significant losses of access when the Wii shop shut down. I'm hopeful that this kind of intentional backwards compatibility will help maintain access to those games. Unfortunately it looks less and less like it'll happen on the native platform. Hacked 360 or PS3 might be the only way to go, and then what happens when updates are lost to the ether?

[Swami]

I think it's 25 years since start date or discontinued at least 15 years. The N64 is just becoming retro, but the GameCube isn't, IMHO. PS1 is, but not PS2. Dreamcast has been retro for a while because of its short lifespan. Xbox, PS2 and GameCube will soon be retro.