agradeneu Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Lost Dragon said: I think you might be getting some wires crossed here. The Jaguar design specifications were finalised in the UK. Atari then put the contract to Assemble, Q.A test,package and ship the Jaguar, out for bids. IBM apparently came in with the lowest bid and had a production facility with spare capacity. Toshiba and Motorola were reported as being the only 2 companies that could fabricate the custom Tom and Jerry chips, in large numbers at that time. Low chip yields of these chips meant IBM couldn't assemble enough units to meet Atari's launch requirements. IBM didn't meddle in anything per say. ATD asked for some minor changes to the hardware to be made,which Atari implemented and Rob Nicholson (HMS) said the chipsets needed a further 2 revisions, to resolve the bugs etc. Atari simply rushed it into production, wanting to establish it before Next Generation hardware from Sega and Nintendo arrived. Issues with Atari's Jaguar design specifications have been documented. Here's Andrew Seed of Imagitec Design with his views: At the start of the Jaguar Atari promised a lot but were unable to deliver, the GPU and DSP were cut back to half speed. The reason was that the chips could not handle the heat and could overheat and stop working. ( As informed by an ex-Atari insider ), also you only had either 2K or 2K of instructions cache in the GPU - back to the days of the ZX81. Ok originally you were able to run programs from outside the GPU's memory ( and DSP) but production machines could not. This meant that you had to have code inside the GPU to load memory from main 68000 memory. This was a pain. Also the GPU and DSP could read 64bits from main memory but internally it was 32bits - this meant that 32bits of the lovely 64bit read went into a memory address. Lets not forget about some positive statements, namely from those who did well with the system (Jeff Minter, Marc Rosocha). It's not all that doom and gloom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 9 hours ago, swapd0 said: 16bits, 32bits, 64 bits... that's pure bullshit. Today, you could build a 16bits console that can wipe out Saturn, PSX or N64. It's more important the bandwidth with the memory, the slow bus (13Mhz) and the lack of cache kills the Jaguar performance. I can't believe that no body at Atari realized that. What would have been the correct size for the on chip caches? (for the time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, agradeneu said: What would have been the correct size for the on chip caches? (for the time) Just try with different sizes until the performance increment it's not too big vs silicon price. But with a 8Kb cache on TOM shared for the blitter, OP, GPU and external device (68000 or DSP), this means 4 read/write ports, you'll get a huge improvement. The blitter could texture map pixels at one bus cycle (13MHz) per pixel if you make it run at 26MHz (1 cycle read, 1 cycle write). Now each pixel takes 10 bus cycles (or it was 11?). Also the 68000 could run in parallel if you don't miss the cache. Edited June 3, 2020 by swapd0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Sauron said: I think he was fine until you started offering your unsolicited input. Well it's going around. We got your unsolicited input on my unsolicited input. If that's what fine sounds like I'd hate to see the poor guy in pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 24 minutes ago, JagChris said: Well it's going around. We got your unsolicited input on my unsolicited input. If that's what fine sounds like I'd hate to see the poor guy in pain. But nobody insulted you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmsignal Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 This is as good as any Days of Our Lives episode. This week on Atari Age - "The Jaguar's potential is unlimited, and swear to protect and honor it always..." - "Is that right? YOU DON'T EVEN CODE CHRIS... and you don't know the half of it. I found my wife in bed with the Jaguar." - "Yeah well, you were never there for Jag. All you can do is put Jag down and tell it what little cache it had to it's name, and you expect loyalty?" 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, swapd0 said: But nobody insulted you... Swap no insult intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Haha found wife in bed with the Jaguar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 49 minutes ago, JagChris said: Haha found wife in bed with the Jaguar I found my wife in bed with a cougar, true story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Arcadia said: I found my wife in bed with a cougar, true story. pics please 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 4 hours ago, JagChris said: Well it's going around. We got your unsolicited input on my unsolicited input. If that's what fine sounds like I'd hate to see the poor guy in pain. I'm pointing out facts here. Really though, you constantly white-knighting the Jag's supposed capabilities gets old. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sauron said: I'm pointing out facts here. Really though, you constantly white-knighting the Jag's supposed capabilities gets old. Your exaggerating and untruths gets old. Life is too short to be stuck on something your unhappy with is all I was pointing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, JagChris said: Your exaggerating and untruths gets old. Please point out where I've either exaggerated or not told the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Ok. Your comment about me thinking the Jaguar is a supercomputer just because I think we haven't seen the best it can do. Or comparing it to a PS4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 3 hours ago, JagChris said: Ok. Your comment about me thinking the Jaguar is a supercomputer just because I think we haven't seen the best it can do. Or comparing it to a PS4. I've never said you compared it to a PS4. But yes, you seem to think the Jag is far more powerful than it actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 On 6/1/2020 at 2:09 PM, Sauron said: I think anyone that works on the Jag does so more for the love of the system than for anything else. Regardless of his motivations, though, he has a much more realistic view of the Jag's capabilities than you, so you would be wise to listen to what he says about the Jag. Of course, that's probably not going to stop you from continuing on in thinking the Jag is as powerful as the PSX or N64... My bad. I thought you said PS4 in this. The statement is still horseshit. This is just the story you tell when anyone says hmm could we get something more advanced than we've been getting? It's not an N64! It's not a PSX! It's not a supercomputer! Yeah. My bad. Apparently it's barely even an Atari ST. Even getting Donkey Kong out of it is causing catastrophic failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 minute ago, JagChris said: My bad. I thought you said PS4 in this. The statement is still horseshit. This is just the story you tell when anyone says hmm could we get something more advanced than we've been getting? It's not an N64! It's not a PSX! It's not a supercomputer! Yeah. My bad. Apparently it's barely even an Atari ST. Even getting Donkey Kong out of it is causing catastrophic failure. Yes, because it's a simple manner to make a machine do more than what its hardware constraints allow. Tell you what. Put together a team of at least half a dozen experienced Jag coders, artists, and musicians, and I'm sure you'll see something that really pushes the hardware to the limit. Then you and whoever else is whining about homebrew developers not shitting out PSX quality games on demand can talk. Until then, STFU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Yeah there we go with the PSX crap again. Oh sorry I forgot to STFU. Have a good day Sauron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 21 hours ago, JagChris said: Yeah. My bad. Apparently it's barely even an Atari ST. Even getting Donkey Kong out of it is causing catastrophic failure. You do realise that for a 26mhz (LOL, yea) machine to run games under simulation written for a completely different 8mhz machine (In many cases, faster, smoother and with major audio upgrades) is stretching it to the limits and is a testament to how powerful it actually is? No, of course you don't, because you grasp technical points in your clenched fists like water from a tap. If you put a fraction of the effort you use on being misinformed and borderline delusional into learning to code, you could have made your own dreams come true by now. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 12 hours ago, agradeneu said: Lets not forget about some positive statements, namely from those who did well with the system (Jeff Minter, Marc Rosocha). It's not all that doom and gloom. Andrew was the first person that sprang to mind and gave an example of issues encountered with the hardware, that was all. The post was really to highlight IBM had no say in the Jaguar design process. I used his quote as he explained why the chipsets were cutback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommywilley84 Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 Damn. I made this thread to just express my love and fascination for a great and quirky console and it turns itself into a shitshow. Clearly not as bad as a political forum but damn. I came here to just nerd out and be laid back 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 6 hours ago, Tommywilley84 said: Damn. I made this thread to just express my love and fascination for a great and quirky console and it turns itself into a shitshow. Clearly not as bad as a political forum but damn. I came here to just nerd out and be laid back Yup, welcome to the Jag community! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommywilley84 Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 12 hours ago, Sauron said: Yup, welcome to the Jag community! Not even going to argue back at anyone. I do that enough with politics which I refuse to get into here. Strictly nerding out here for me. Let the good times roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelliMission Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 I think the Jaguar had some potential. I think they should have released more: - FPS with the Doom engine - Cinematic platformers (such as Prince of Persia or Abe's Oddysee) - Graphic adventures (perhaps making the cursor move instantly from icon to icon and from object to object instead of moving it) - Basic but fluid 3D games (such as Hard Drivin') The console was perfectly capable of that. I also don't understand how they gave the controller the green light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, IntelliMission said: I think the Jaguar had some potential. I think they should have released more: - FPS with the Doom engine - Cinematic platformers (such as Prince of Persia or Abe's Oddysee) - Graphic adventures (perhaps making the cursor move instantly from icon to icon and from object to object instead of moving it) - Basic but fluid 3D games (such as Hard Drivin') The console was perfectly capable of that. I also don't understand how they gave the controller the green light. I believe they were originally intended for the Falcon, though I'm going off a very poor memory ? Atari did talk of wanting more serious type games on the Jaguar, things like Gunship 2000, Falcon, Theme Park etc. PC titles that needed a lot of keyboard controls. I assume the thinking was the controller might encourage developers to consider bringing more simulation and strategy titles to the console, without fear of having to compromise control schemes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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