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Atari Jaguar is FAR from the best console..

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Yeah but unfortunately unique games aren't a big seller these days. It's mostly all the same stuff, rewrapped. 

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54 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

That's only one perspective. I can understand that collectors want a variety of unique weird systems, as many a possible, to play all games, even the wacky and crappy ones.

However for a modern user and player the future looks more and more like that you just need to buy one box that plays all games. Devs want it, players want it. You expect a Blue Ray/DVD player to play all your movies right? It's not about unique hardware, its about unique games.  That is where the soul is. People will remember games, not the hardware they were running on. 

Im not surprised by a bit, that Jaguar fans are mostly focusing on hardware cult, for obvious reasons. ;-)

Agradeneu, to quote your own line, what you wrote above that's only one perspective.

 

Look all over You Tube, people are fascinated left and right how certain things were achieved, how people used creativity to overcome mountains.  That's part of human nature. 

 

People wanna know why Bruce Lee could punch a man feets away with a 1 inch punch.  People wanna know how they created photo realistic dinosaurs with 93's hardware in Jurassic Park.

 

They wanna know how movie SFX are made, and I'm 100% sure people are more interested in how they were made in the 80s and 90s in the harder days.

 

Etc. 

 

Could make a long list here. You got the point.

 

Back to games, are you sure hardware has nothing to do with it? Really, really sure?

 

Then why such a nerdy content has 290K views and on-going series?

 

 

Why does Game Sack have a long on going series of games that push HARDWARE limit?

 

 

And a content that explores the opposite side, when games DIDN'T push the hardware?

 

 

Why does Low Score Boy have a full analisys on Saturn's transparency then?

 

 

 

Actually, people are obssessed to know why the Saturn couldn't do transparency most of the time.  It's all over YT.

 

Then you have DF Retro, and so many other channels on similar subjects.

 

Why the N64 had blurry textures, why the PS1 had warping textures, is the Jaguar really 64 bit, if not why Atari felt they could market it as such (64 bit bus architecture), etc.

 

Why is the retro market so in demand today?

 

Why is it possible that a modded N64 can cost $1300 ??

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ultra-hdmi-n64-nintendo-64-hdmi/264726915464?hash=item3da2f42988:g:e1cAAOSwG3teuFJ~

 

Answer:

Because people care.

 

If you really think only a handful of weirdos pay attention to hardware, I believe your view is in need of a revision.

 

Games by itself are awesome, but people left and right wanna know a bit more about how things operate on the backstages (this applies to everything, not only video games). 

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7 hours ago, marcio_napoli said:

Agradeneu, to quote your own line, what you wrote above that's only one perspective.

 

Look all over You Tube, people are fascinated left and right how certain things were achieved, how people used creativity to overcome mountains.  That's part of human nature. 

 

People wanna know why Bruce Lee could punch a man feets away with a 1 inch punch.  People wanna know how they created photo realistic dinosaurs with 93's hardware in Jurassic Park.

 

They wanna know how movie SFX are made, and I'm 100% sure people are more interested in how they were made in the 80s and 90s in the harder days.

 

Etc. 

 

Could make a long list here. You got the point.

 

Back to games, are you sure hardware has nothing to do with it? Really, really sure?

 

Then why such a nerdy content has 290K views and on-going series?

 

 

Why does Game Sack have a long on going series of games that push HARDWARE limit?

 

 

And a content that explores the opposite side, when games DIDN'T push the hardware?

 

 

Why does Low Score Boy have a full analisys on Saturn's transparency then?

 

 

 

Actually, people are obssessed to know why the Saturn couldn't do transparency most of the time.  It's all over YT.

 

Then you have DF Retro, and so many other channels on similar subjects.

 

Why the N64 had blurry textures, why the PS1 had warping textures, is the Jaguar really 64 bit, if not why Atari felt they could market it as such (64 bit bus architecture), etc.

 

Why is the retro market so in demand today?

 

Why is it possible that a modded N64 can cost $1300 ??

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ultra-hdmi-n64-nintendo-64-hdmi/264726915464?hash=item3da2f42988:g:e1cAAOSwG3teuFJ~

 

Answer:

Because people care.

 

If you really think only a handful of weirdos pay attention to hardware, I believe your view is in need of a revision.

 

Games by itself are awesome, but people left and right wanna know a bit more about how things operate on the backstages (this applies to everything, not only video games). 

  In case you don't know I actually work on Jaguar games, thats why I see it through the lense of a more practical, game creating perspective. It's not about theories and speculation. First and foremost, hardware is developed to empower those who produce the games. Simple as that. Nobody likes overly complicated hardware and technical shortcomings just for  the sake of being "unique". Thats just not how it works mate.  That's why I also addressed some of your disregard for modern game creators. You respect the "old masters", thats fine. I do too. But that does not mean you have to disregard what is achieved today. There is some incredible stuff out there, because authors can focus  on making the best content possible rather than dealing with technical issues and wasting a lot of time to get something running.

Edited by agradeneu

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8 hours ago, JagChris said:

Yeah but unfortunately unique games aren't a big seller these days. It's mostly all the same stuff, rewrapped. 

I would say educate yourself on that matter - there are tons of very off beat creative games and lots of unusual stuff for the more matured gamer. Obviously it sells well enough that more is coming. People are creating games left and right. Why aren't you? ;-)

Edited by agradeneu

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8 hours ago, marcio_napoli said:

Agradeneu, to quote your own line, what you wrote above that's only one perspective.

 

Look all over You Tube, people are fascinated left and right how certain things were achieved, how people used creativity to overcome mountains.  That's part of human nature. 

 

People wanna know why Bruce Lee could punch a man feets away with a 1 inch punch.  People wanna know how they created photo realistic dinosaurs with 93's hardware in Jurassic Park.

 

They wanna know how movie SFX are made, and I'm 100% sure people are more interested in how they were made in the 80s and 90s in the harder days.

 

Etc. 

 

Could make a long list here. You got the point.

 

Back to games, are you sure hardware has nothing to do with it? Really, really sure?

 

Then why such a nerdy content has 290K views and on-going series?

 

 

Why does Game Sack have a long on going series of games that push HARDWARE limit?

 

 

And a content that explores the opposite side, when games DIDN'T push the hardware?

 

 

Why does Low Score Boy have a full analisys on Saturn's transparency then?

 

 

 

Actually, people are obssessed to know why the Saturn couldn't do transparency most of the time.  It's all over YT.

 

Then you have DF Retro, and so many other channels on similar subjects.

 

Why the N64 had blurry textures, why the PS1 had warping textures, is the Jaguar really 64 bit, if not why Atari felt they could market it as such (64 bit bus architecture), etc.

 

Why is the retro market so in demand today?

 

Why is it possible that a modded N64 can cost $1300 ??

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ultra-hdmi-n64-nintendo-64-hdmi/264726915464?hash=item3da2f42988:g:e1cAAOSwG3teuFJ~

 

Answer:

Because people care.

 

If you really think only a handful of weirdos pay attention to hardware, I believe your view is in need of a revision.

 

Games by itself are awesome, but people left and right wanna know a bit more about how things operate on the backstages (this applies to everything, not only video games). 

As a film buff, DVD and now Blu-ray, have seen me spending far more time watching the extras (Making of's..behind the scenes, interviews with cast etc) than ever before. 

 

Far easier to sit back and watch and learn, than dig through old copies of Empire, Sci-Fi Now etc

 

I've become rather caught up in the whole film making process and find it often more enjoyable than the film itself. 

 

Used to really enjoy RetroGamer magazine at it's peak when they did Making Of features. 

 

 

To discover why that home conversion you paid good money for,all those years ago turned out so poorly, made for great reading.

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20 hours ago, JagChris said:

Yeah but unfortunately unique games aren't a big seller these days. It's mostly all the same stuff, rewrapped. 

This is true. Anything off the beat and path nowadays is small scale released, put out by an small publishing company. That's if it even gets a physical release. If it doesn't, then I don't buy it. I just don't purchase downloads. The scene for retail games has been shriveling for a while now, down to mostly your main-line series that never die, and few indie titles caught in the undertow. Certainly big developers do not take creative risks anymore, and yet if their by-the-book triple-a titles don't rack up multi-millions in sales, then it's considered a failure. Your game is either the next big thing, or you could be out of a job. It's very cut-throat. On the flip side gamers today are fickle as hell, and jaded. They nit-pick everything that comes out and most games catch some criticism even if they're cutting edge and near perfect. It's like if a game is not perfect, then it's not worth playing. It's no wonder some many publishers and franchise games have bit the dust in the past 10 years. The market has changed so much since the old days. There's so much more money, commercialization, politics, drama, etc, involved. It's become too much like Hollywood almost, bloated and out of inspiration. So just reboot something, or come up with the next big multiplayer flavor of the month.

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12 hours ago, agradeneu said:

  In case you don't know I actually work on Jaguar games, thats why I see it through the lense of a more practical, game creating perspective. It's not about theories and speculation. First and foremost, hardware is developed to empower those who produce the games. Simple as that. Nobody likes overly complicated hardware and technical shortcomings just for  the sake of being "unique". Thats just not how it works mate.  That's why I also addressed some of your disregard for modern game creators. You respect the "old masters", thats fine. I do too. But that does not mean you have to disregard what is achieved today. There is some incredible stuff out there, because authors can focus  on making the best content possible rather than dealing with technical issues and wasting a lot of time to get something running.

 

So... you work on the Jaguar for the empowerment and not having to deal with technical issues?

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59 minutes ago, JagChris said:

 

So... you work on the Jaguar for the empowerment and not having to deal with technical issues?

I think anyone that works on the Jag does so more for the love of the system than for anything else. Regardless of his motivations, though, he has a much more realistic view of the Jag's capabilities than you, so you would be wise to listen to what he says about the Jag. Of course, that's probably not going to stop you from continuing on in thinking the Jag is as powerful as the PSX or N64...

 

 

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1 hour ago, JagChris said:

 

So... you work on the Jaguar for the empowerment and not having to deal with technical issues?

 

If you work with one of the APIs (RAPTOR or Removers) then you don't have to deal with technical issues....

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14 hours ago, agradeneu said:

  In case you don't know I actually work on Jaguar games, thats why I see it through the lense of a more practical, game creating perspective. It's not about theories and speculation. First and foremost, hardware is developed to empower those who produce the games. Simple as that. Nobody likes overly complicated hardware and technical shortcomings just for  the sake of being "unique". Thats just not how it works mate.  That's why I also addressed some of your disregard for modern game creators. You respect the "old masters", thats fine. I do too. But that does not mean you have to disregard what is achieved today. There is some incredible stuff out there, because authors can focus  on making the best content possible rather than dealing with technical issues and wasting a lot of time to get something running.

I understand where you're coming from, you're seeing from the POV of a content creator.  It's easy to understand why you have less love for the limited tools and hardwares of yesterday.

 

After all, no one likes to create under constraints. That I completely understand, but still not in agreement.

 

Here's where my opinion comes from.

 

Even though filmmaking is not my profession, due to a movie I did back in college 17 years ago, I had the honor of being interviewed in my country's prime talk show, and being called somewhat of a "Steven Spielberg".

 

You can see that in the 00:37 sec mark (it's in Portuguese, but the context is easy to understand).  

  

 

I still shoot my own movies to this day as a hobby, under very hard working conditions.  They got notably better now, due to modern hardware, tools, software, cameras, etc (and of course, experience).

 

This one was shot in 2013, under such better "tech" (shall we call it that way).

 

 

Would I trade the better tools I have now for those of 17 years ago? Definitely not, I love being less constrained. 

 

That said, I'm still 100% constrained compared to Hollywood stuff, still under hobbyist restrictions and absolutely love that. It makes me squeeze every ounce of creativity I have, and that is a blessing.

 

If you offered me Hollywood resources right now, I'd pass (being 100% honest).  Being challenged always brings out the best in people.

 

Every time I go for a new movie (have another one already shot from 2016, and one written and planned for 2021), I'm forced to find solutions for increasingly broader and more ambitious situations, those are challenges amazingly fun to overcome.

 

So yeah, I understand your point that, as content creator, you don't wanna be too limited, that is very true.

 

But OTOH, , you believe people will only pay attention to the end product, like who cares which hardware did what back in the 90s.  That I disagree completely as not only my own opinion, but as the links provided (Game Sack, etc) prove.

 

People do care about backstages, people are always fascinated by how steep mountains were climbed.

 

As a game creator, it's easy to see why you love the better tools of today, don't blame you at all, but as we started this chat, this is just one side of the story, one that has many sides.

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I know I've come to notice several older games generally regarded as "crap" become more appreciated when the original developer chronicles the struggle and the thought process of developing the game. Without that extra knowledge and unique perspective, a lot of people tend to just write off an underwhelming game as "one of those kinda crap games that I don't like". But with perspective on how it was made, why it was made the way it was, and how the developer feels about the end product, it can actually sway opinion and breathe life into an otherwise forgotten, neglected game from the dust bins of history.

 

I think a lot of times gamers play a game they feel is sub-par and think "What were they thinking with this? They weren't even trying, this game was just a hack job." but in reality, that's unlikely. Lots of work went into it, whether it seems like it, or not. That was somebody's technical project, and somebody's work of art that they spent months, if not years building. I love getting those peaks behind the scenes.

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1 hour ago, Sauron said:

I think anyone that works on the Jag does so more for the love of the system than for anything else. Regardless of his motivations, though, he has a much more realistic view of the Jag's capabilities than you, so you would be wise to listen to what he says about the Jag. Of course, that's probably not going to stop you from continuing on in thinking the Jag is as powerful as the PSX or N64...

 

 

I was ribbing Agradeneu a little but I should have figured the usual toxic suspects would start circling. 

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1 hour ago, JagChris said:

I was ribbing Agradeneu a little but I should have figured the usual toxic suspects would start circling. 

Toxic because we prefer to live in the real world instead of a fantasy world?

 

 

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1 hour ago, JagChris said:

Whatever you say 

 

Is there a 'whatever' club? Second one this week :)

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On 5/30/2020 at 11:44 PM, Warmsignal said:

Even considering only the 5th gen... stuff like Amiga CD 32? Pfft... PC-FX? No thank you. Apple Pippin? Oh yeah, that thing existed didn't it... FM Towns Marty? I'll pass. I'd go even as far as to say Jaguar is better than SEGA 32x. As for 3DO? Just maybe. There's clearly more consoles that aren't as good, than ones that are better. Just sayin'.

The FM Towns Marty doesnt really have a worse game catalog than the Jaguar... its pretty close actually. Hey, its got a better port of Raiden with the best version of its soundtrack!

 

Its got some great arcade conversions of Raiden, Operation Wolf, Twin Cobra, Bubble Bobble, Rainbow Islands, New Zeland Story, Splatterhouse, Tatsujin 2, After Burner, Galaxy Force 2, Survivor, Puyo Puyo, Viewpoint, Pulirula, Chase HQ, Flying Shark, Marble Madness, Muscle Bomber, etc... those old arcade games have as much fun factor as the Jaguars best games. Fun fun fun.

 

There is some early polygon stuff, like 4D Driving, 4D Boxing, Advantage Tennis, and... Alone in the Dark!

 

Its got something the Jag doesnt have...RPGs: Dungeon Master 1 and 2, Ultima 6, Drakken, Emerald Dragon (great JRPG), etc.

 

Ports of some PC classics like: Shadow of the Beast 1, 2 and 3, Prince of Persia, Flashback, Syndicate, Lemmings, Wing Commander, etc.

 

And its crowning jewel... some of the best versions of classic point and click adventures, like: Monkey Island 1 and 2, Indiana Jones Trilogy, Loom, Zak Mckraken, etc.

 

On the other hand, the Jag does have nicer exclusives... and is more powerful overall. And the Marty was crazy expensive for what it offered and was quickly overpowered by the Jag and 3DO in 1993. So, yeah, i like the Jaguar more for its uniqueness, but have had as much fun with my Marty as i have had with my Jaguar.

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On 6/1/2020 at 12:28 AM, JagChris said:

Yeah but unfortunately unique games aren't a big seller these days. It's mostly all the same stuff, rewrapped. 

Tempest 4000 being a prime example 

 

We have had 2000,3000, Txk and Tempest X3 

 

With 4000 Jeff has used newer hardware to increase the visual clutter to the detriment of the gameplay. 

 

Something he was pulled up on with Tempest 3000 on Nuon and Space Giraffe on 360.

 

I've bought Tempest updates on Jaguar, PlayStation and PlayStation 4.

 

I won't be touching it again.

Edited by Lost Dragon

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Just now, Lost Dragon said:

Tempest 4000 being a prime example 

 

We have had 2000,3000, Txk and Tempest X3 

 

With 4000 Jeff has used newer hardware to increase the visual clutter to the detriment of the gameplay. 

 

Something he was pulled up on with Tempest 3000 on Nuon and Space Giraffe on 360

 

13 hours ago, marcio_napoli said:

I understand where you're coming from, you're seeing from the POV of a content creator.  It's easy to understand why you have less love for the limited tools and hardwares of yesterday.

 

After all, no one likes to create under constraints. That I completely understand, but still not in agreement.

 

Here's where my opinion comes from.

 

Even though filmmaking is not my profession, due to a movie I did back in college 17 years ago, I had the honor of being interviewed in my country's prime talk show, and being called somewhat of a "Steven Spielberg".

 

You can see that in the 00:37 sec mark (it's in Portuguese, but the context is easy to understand).  

  

 

I still shoot my own movies to this day as a hobby, under very hard working conditions.  They got notably better now, due to modern hardware, tools, software, cameras, etc (and of course, experience).

 

This one was shot in 2013, under such better "tech" (shall we call it that way).

 

 

Would I trade the better tools I have now for those of 17 years ago? Definitely not, I love being less constrained. 

 

That said, I'm still 100% constrained compared to Hollywood stuff, still under hobbyist restrictions and absolutely love that. It makes me squeeze every ounce of creativity I have, and that is a blessing.

 

If you offered me Hollywood resources right now, I'd pass (being 100% honest).  Being challenged always brings out the best in people.

 

Every time I go for a new movie (have another one already shot from 2016, and one written and planned for 2021), I'm forced to find solutions for increasingly broader and more ambitious situations, those are challenges amazingly fun to overcome.

 

So yeah, I understand your point that, as content creator, you don't wanna be too limited, that is very true.

 

But OTOH, , you believe people will only pay attention to the end product, like who cares which hardware did what back in the 90s.  That I disagree completely as not only my own opinion, but as the links provided (Game Sack, etc) prove.

 

People do care about backstages, people are always fascinated by how steep mountains were climbed.

 

As a game creator, it's easy to see why you love the better tools of today, don't blame you at all, but as we started this chat, this is just one side of the story, one that has many sides.

My utmost respect for the Aliens movie B-) 

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1 hour ago, Lost Dragon said:

Tempest 4000 being a prime example 

 

We have had 2000,3000, Txk and Tempest X3 

 

With 4000 Jeff has used newer hardware to increase the visual clutter to the detriment of the gameplay. 

 

Something he was pulled up on with Tempest 3000 on Nuon and Space Giraffe on 360.

 

I've bought Tempest updates on Jaguar, PlayStation and PlayStation 4.

 

I won't be touching it again.

Tempest 4000 is bascially TxK but overpriced. There are simply much better and more inspired indie games out there worth playing. 

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7 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Tempest 4000 is bascially TxK but overpriced. There are simply much better and more inspired indie games out there worth playing. 

I got so much more out of Typhoon on PC years ago, than Tempest 4K on PS4

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On 6/1/2020 at 1:28 AM, JagChris said:

Yeah but unfortunately unique games aren't a big seller these days. It's mostly all the same stuff, rewrapped. 

"Celeste" got quite big press and "Hollow Knight" too. And then there are Limited Run Games for the obsessive collectors out there.

Anyone talented enough can create a game and publish it via e.g. itch.io. There is a huge DIY community, not just the AAA blockbuster market.

13 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

I got so much more out of Typhoon on PC years ago, than Tempest 4K on PS4

Maybe. But I'm not referring to Tempest clones. ;-)

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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

"Celeste" got quite big press and "Hollow Knight" too. And then there are Limited Run Games for the obsessive collectors out there.

Anyone talented enough can create a game and publish it via e.g. itch.io. There is a huge DIY community, not just the AAA blockbuster market.

Maybe. But I'm not referring to Tempest clones. ;-)

It was a Freeware title than provided far better enjoyment for myself than a commercial title 😊

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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

"Celeste" got quite big press and "Hollow Knight" too. And then there are Limited Run Games for the obsessive collectors out there.

Anyone talented enough can create a game and publish it via e.g. itch.io. There is a huge DIY community, not just the AAA blockbuster market.

Maybe. But I'm not referring to Tempest clones. ;-)

It was a Freeware title than provided far better enjoyment for myself than a commercial title 😊

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11 hours ago, sd32 said:

The FM Towns Marty doesnt really have a worse game catalog than the Jaguar... its pretty close actually. Hey, its got a better port of Raiden with the best version of its soundtrack!

 

Its got some great arcade conversions of Raiden, Operation Wolf, Twin Cobra, Bubble Bobble, Rainbow Islands, New Zeland Story, Splatterhouse, Tatsujin 2, After Burner, Galaxy Force 2, Survivor, Puyo Puyo, Viewpoint, Pulirula, Chase HQ, Flying Shark, Marble Madness, Muscle Bomber, etc... those old arcade games have as much fun factor as the Jaguars best games. Fun fun fun.

 

There is some early polygon stuff, like 4D Driving, 4D Boxing, Advantage Tennis, and... Alone in the Dark!

 

Its got something the Jag doesnt have...RPGs: Dungeon Master 1 and 2, Ultima 6, Drakken, Emerald Dragon (great JRPG), etc.

 

Ports of some PC classics like: Shadow of the Beast 1, 2 and 3, Prince of Persia, Flashback, Syndicate, Lemmings, Wing Commander, etc.

 

And its crowning jewel... some of the best versions of classic point and click adventures, like: Monkey Island 1 and 2, Indiana Jones Trilogy, Loom, Zak Mckraken, etc.

 

On the other hand, the Jag does have nicer exclusives... and is more powerful overall. And the Marty was crazy expensive for what it offered and was quickly overpowered by the Jag and 3DO in 1993. So, yeah, i like the Jaguar more for its uniqueness, but have had as much fun with my Marty as i have had with my Jaguar.

I like the physical look of the console, but it seems to an absolute layman like myself, to be one for the collectors only, given the prices. 

 

Awful lot of titles available far cheaper on other systems. 

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4 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Tempest 4000 being a prime example 

 

We have had 2000,3000, Txk and Tempest X3 

 

With 4000 Jeff has used newer hardware to increase the visual clutter to the detriment of the gameplay. 

 

Something he was pulled up on with Tempest 3000 on Nuon and Space Giraffe on 360.

 

I've bought Tempest updates on Jaguar, PlayStation and PlayStation 4.

 

I won't be touching it again.

He hit the sweet spot with T2k (though I wish I could turn off the flying bits in 2k mode as I use a spinner which makes them a pain). I've played and sold other versions since and they just don't play as well. Indeed the only reason I bought another Jaguar (had one back in the day) was to play T2k because the other good games on it don't really warrant the expenditure and are more nostalgia than anything else. T2k is so bloody good it stands up today and makes the Jaguar desirable (for me). Without it (and Rebooteroids now), it just ain't got the library. Which is the thing. Platforms live and die on the library, and regardless of whether one is technically superior to another, if it ain't got the game to back that up, it's irrelevant. T2k does a LOT of lifting for the Jaguar!

That said Rebooteroids brings up another point that the Jaguar shares with other Atari consoles: homebrew. Few consoles have the homebrew scene on them that exist here on AA for the Ataris. Some of my favourite games on these old systems are recent ones. Others also enjoy this continued popularity (Dreamcast, Megadrive and SNES stick out to me) and for me it makes these old systems even more desirable than they were.

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