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Tommywilley84

Atari Jaguar is FAR from the best console..

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I'd love to see some kind of documentary about the design of the console and the controller. I'd pay some money to capture the moment where they decide to go with the numeric pad. I doubt it went through a proper testing phase with video game players.

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40 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

I'd love to see some kind of documentary about the design of the console and the controller.

yep, would be cool to see the story from the beginning - the Jag, till the production

 

 

On 6/3/2020 at 3:03 PM, Lost Dragon said:

Here's Andrew Seed of Imagitec Design with his views:

 

At the start of the Jaguar Atari promised a lot but were unable to deliver,
the GPU and DSP were cut back to half speed. The reason was that the chips
could not handle the heat and could overheat and stop working. ( As informed
by an ex-Atari insider ), also you only had either 2K or 2K of instructions
cache in the GPU - back to the days of the ZX81. Ok originally you were able
to run programs from outside the GPU's memory ( and DSP) but production
machines could not. This meant that you had to have code inside the GPU to
load memory from main 68000 memory. This was a pain. Also the GPU and DSP
could read 64bits from main memory but internally it was 32bits - this meant
that 32bits of the lovely 64bit read went into a memory address.

 

I wonder why they claimed about that 64bit access in case of DSP. If I'm not wrong, it has 16bit access to the main RAM.

 

 

 

x

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3 hours ago, Cyprian_K said:

yep, would be cool to see the story from the beginning - the Jag, till the production

 

 

 

I wonder why they claimed about that 64bit access in case of DSP. If I'm not wrong, it has 16bit access to the main RAM.

 

 

 

x

Yes, also the DSP has 8KB cache and 4KB for the GPU instead of 2KB each one... well scratchpad memory, not a real cache.

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10 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

I think the Jaguar had some potential. I think they should have released more:

 

- FPS with the Doom engine

- Cinematic platformers (such as Prince of Persia or Abe's Oddysee)

- Graphic adventures (perhaps making the cursor move instantly from icon to icon and from object to object instead of moving it)

- Basic but fluid 3D games (such as Hard Drivin')

 

The console was perfectly capable of that.

 

I also don't understand how they gave the controller the green light.

I really don't understand what the hate for the controller is all about. At the time most companies were experimenting a lot with controllers. I find the Jag controller to be very comfortable. I don't mind having extra shortcut buttons on the number pad either.

 

For me, some of the biggest problems with the Jag's game library is that many of the Atari 3D games focused on missions and totally lack an actual "gaming" element. I can understand that they were just trying to show off the capabilities of the Jag but games are supposed to be fun too. It would have been nice for them to try and get some game designers that had experience in building what were considered to be modern games for the time.

 

For 2D, we really should have seen more games that rivaled what Nintendo was doing on the SNES and maybe more super scaler style games like Sega was known for. The Jag had such powerful 2D capabilities for the time that we really should have seen more truly unique experiences in 2D. We still can I guess, there's nothing stopping that now. For that matter, it would be fun to see some more 3D games that are more fun to play than some of the mission-based tech demos that came along during its commercial life.

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The Jaguar is the best console ever, and I've reported all of you, and all of these posts in here to Albert for blasphemy!

 

Consider yourselves warned!

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Of Course the Jaguar is far from being simply the "best" console, as it is the "God" console and simply cannot not be judged or compared to all other consoles beneath it.  

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5 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

The Jaguar is the best console ever, and I've reported all of you, and all of these posts in here to Albert for blasphemy!

Oh snap!  It's the Jag Thought Police!

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Posted (edited)

I loved the Jaguar when it came out.  All the advertisement with 64 bit got many Atarians excited including me.  I saved a lot of money to buy many games for this jag.  As I compiled many games I kept searching for that quality game that would reel me to play the jag more.  But there were so many poor titles (Trevor McFur, Ninja, Blue Lightning, Bruce lee, etc).  I started to hate the system.  My CD started to fail.  Owning the SNES, the titles were far superior  despite the hardware Jag advantage.  What the heck was Atari doing?  I eventually sold the console for cheap.  Today, 30 games, mint in box jaguar would go for a lot.  I have a total dislike toward the Jaguar especially in comparison to the awesome lynx system despite sales.  

 

 Anyway, here I am. Decades later.  I got the Jag for cheap at a store closing recently.  I started playing it again.  It's a little different playing it again when you're older.  You can appreciate the hardware but you really see how much a failure the system was at that time, especially in comparison to other systems in that era. 

 

2600 is the face of atari.  5200 failed too but it had excellent titles and still sold a million in its short 2 year lifespan.  It also competed well against coleco.  7800 was released late too but there are some solid titles as well.  That sound chip was terrible though.  Lynx was amazing.  And today, there's more new software and development than any atari at the moment.  The new screens make the lynx even better. 

 

The jaguar didn't have many games that had some soul to it.  Tempest is the best game on the Jag.  AVP would be next or Raiden.  Then the quality of games become either mediocre or bad.   I mean Rayman and Pitfall are ok but during that era, those are crappy games in comparison to the SNES or N64/ps1 lineups.  Anyway, that's my opinion.  Playing the jag today is more of an atari collectors perspective so it's not as bad as when I sold it.  I haven't checked out the homebrews but I started playing Cannon Fodder and Raiden.  Power Drive Rally too but those controls aren't that good.  Maybe the homebrews are good?

Edited by phuzaxeman

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33 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

... I started playing it again.  It's a little different playing it again when you're older.  You can appreciate the hardware but you really see how much a failure the system was at that time, especially in comparison to other systems in that era. 

...

Yup ... can't agree more.

PS1 and Saturn were way too close to the Jag release for it having a chance .... had it had say another 2 years of being the only new system in town .... maybe but just maybe.

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phuzaxeman, i liked your post...except for the part were you put Rayman and Pitfall Mayan Adeventure on the same level. Lets not get carried away, Rayman is way better than Pitfall. Not only gameplaywise, but it takes better advantage of the Jag hardware. Jag Pitfall cant even match the Sega Genesis version framerate!

Rayman is really good even when compared with the Playstation and Super Nintendo best platformers. Its definitely NOT a crappy game.

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9 minutes ago, sd32 said:

phuzaxeman, i liked your post...except for the part were you put Rayman and Pitfall Mayan Adeventure on the same level. Lets not get carried away, Rayman is way better than Pitfall. Not only gameplaywise, but it takes better advantage of the Jag hardware. Jag Pitfall cant even match the Sega Genesis version framerate!

Rayman is really good even when compared with the Playstation and Super Nintendo best platformers. Its definitely NOT a crappy game.

You make a good point today.  But back in the day, I didn't play Rayman on the ps1.  So I didn't have something to compare.  And in my opinion during that time in the mid 90s, those two games were about equal.  Today I can see how Rayman is better than Pitfall but it was slow for me back then.  And when you had titles like King of Fighters or Virtual Fighter on PS1 and the Jag releases Ultra Vortek?  Omg....I was so mad back then.  What kind of MK rip off is this?  Hey, at least I'm playing the jag again.  I have a different view of it now.  Any new games you can recommend?   

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49 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Yup ... can't agree more.

PS1 and Saturn were way too close to the Jag release for it having a chance .... had it had say another 2 years of being the only new system in town .... maybe but just maybe.

Man, Sega's Virtual Fighter 2 and Sega Rally were some killer games on the Saturn.  

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On 6/7/2020 at 12:39 PM, Cyprian_K said:

I wonder why they claimed about that 64bit access in case of DSP. If I'm not wrong, it has 16bit access to the main RAM.

That's on account of the Motorola 68000 isn't it...? The interface was designed to work with the Motorola.

 

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40 minutes ago, sd32 said:

phuzaxeman, i liked your post...except for the part were you put Rayman and Pitfall Mayan Adeventure on the same level. Lets not get carried away, Rayman is way better than Pitfall. Not only gameplaywise, but it takes better advantage of the Jag hardware. Jag Pitfall cant even match the Sega Genesis version framerate!

Rayman is really good even when compared with the Playstation and Super Nintendo best platformers. Its definitely NOT a crappy game.

I was looking to buy back Rayman and saw the prices.  Holy moly I didn't know it was so expensive.  lol I should have never sold it.  I bought it new too.  lol

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1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

You make a good point today.  But back in the day, I didn't play Rayman on the ps1.  So I didn't have something to compare.  And in my opinion during that time in the mid 90s, those two games were about equal.  Today I can see how Rayman is better than Pitfall but it was slow for me back then.  And when you had titles like King of Fighters or Virtual Fighter on PS1 and the Jag releases Ultra Vortek?  Omg....I was so mad back then.  What kind of MK rip off is this?  Hey, at least I'm playing the jag again.  I have a different view of it now.  Any new games you can recommend?   

It sounds like you missed a few gems from back in the day. Iron Soldier 1 and 2 are both fun games. Zero 5 can be frustratingly difficult, but it is one of the most technically impressive titles on the system. Missile Command 3D I've always enjoyed, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Hover Strike CD and Battlemorph are great JagCD games, both worth picking up if you have a JagCD. Protector SE and Skyhammer are some great post-Jag releases, and Rebooteroids is one of the best homebrews on the system. And yes, I haven't mentioned Battlesphere, but considering the prices it goes for....

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Sauron said:

It sounds like you missed a few gems from back in the day. Iron Soldier 1 and 2 are both fun games. Zero 5 can be frustratingly difficult, but it is one of the most technically impressive titles on the system. Missile Command 3D I've always enjoyed, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Hover Strike CD and Battlemorph are great JagCD games, both worth picking up if you have a JagCD. Protector SE and Skyhammer are some great post-Jag releases, and Rebooteroids is one of the best homebrews on the system. And yes, I haven't mentioned Battlesphere, but considering the prices it goes for....

 

 

I'm not a fan of Iron Soldiers.  Still it was slow, and the sound effects were repetitive.  It's like they didn't make it over the top. I get it, kinda has that Battle Zone feel.   I actually have 2 at the moment (box is a little fat).  The lack of a boss man is kinda annoying too although there's some robots to fight.  

 

I hated Missile Command.  The angles alone were not my cup of tea.  I felt they got away from the original but I guess some people like it.  There are some similarities like Iron Soldier.  Plus the controls are a turn off.

 

I'll have to check out Zero 5.  As I mentioned b4, my jag cd was defective and didn't play all the games like Hover Strike and Battlemorph. Although, I had Cybermorph which was terrible imo.

I'll have to check out the post Jag games.  I remember reading Battlespere is rare and super expensive.  Thanks for the recommendations.

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9 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I loved the Jaguar when it came out.  All the advertisement with 64 bit got many Atarians excited including me.  I saved a lot of money to buy many games for this jag.  As I compiled many games I kept searching for that quality game that would reel me to play the jag more.  But there were so many poor titles (Trevor McFur, Ninja, Blue Lightning, Bruce lee, etc).  I started to hate the system.  My CD started to fail.  Owning the SNES, the titles were far superior  despite the hardware Jag advantage.  What the heck was Atari doing?  I eventually sold the console for cheap.  Today, 30 games, mint in box jaguar would go for a lot.  I have a total dislike toward the Jaguar especially in comparison to the awesome lynx system despite sales.  

 

 Anyway, here I am. Decades later.  I got the Jag for cheap at a store closing recently.  I started playing it again.  It's a little different playing it again when you're older.  You can appreciate the hardware but you really see how much a failure the system was at that time, especially in comparison to other systems in that era. 

 

2600 is the face of atari.  5200 failed too but it had excellent titles and still sold a million in its short 2 year lifespan.  It also competed well against coleco.  7800 was released late too but there are some solid titles as well.  That sound chip was terrible though.  Lynx was amazing.  And today, there's more new software and development than any atari at the moment.  The new screens make the lynx even better. 

 

The jaguar didn't have many games that had some soul to it.  Tempest is the best game on the Jag.  AVP would be next or Raiden.  Then the quality of games become either mediocre or bad.   I mean Rayman and Pitfall are ok but during that era, those are crappy games in comparison to the SNES or N64/ps1 lineups.  Anyway, that's my opinion.  Playing the jag today is more of an atari collectors perspective so it's not as bad as when I sold it.  I haven't checked out the homebrews but I started playing Cannon Fodder and Raiden.  Power Drive Rally too but those controls aren't that good.  Maybe the homebrews are good?

I agree on that. Sure you aren't confusing Rayman with Bubsy? Rayman was/is really top notch compared to 16 bit platformers on SNES/Genni. The graphics really show off the system well, gameplay is a bit middle of the road though. 

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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

I agree on that. Sure you aren't confusing Rayman with Bubsy? Rayman was/is really top notch compared to 16 bit platformers on SNES/Genni. The graphics really show off the system well, gameplay is a bit middle of the road though. 

Not denying the graphics of Rayman.  The gameplay for me wasn't that great.  Really kind of boring and a bit slow.  I haven't played it recently though.  I tried to purchase it and looked at the prices. lol

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On 6/7/2020 at 11:54 AM, IntelliMission said:

I'd love to see some kind of documentary about the design of the console and the controller. I'd pay some money to capture the moment where they decide to go with the numeric pad. I doubt it went through a proper testing phase with video game players.

I've always been curious why people seem to loath the Jaguar controller. I actually like it. I've had an N64 before, and that controller was crazy... a lot going on. The Playstation controller... had one of those too... it was ok. But personally, can someone explain to me why the Jaguar controller is (I think) universally hated?

 

I thought the keypad was a great component of the game, and allowed for the overlays which I don't think were used as often as they should be.

 

I have really large hands (long fingers), and the controller is perfect for me.

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People often look at it, having never held one and assume you somehow have to grip into that huge square chunk at the bottom. They don't realize the gripping point is more towards the top, and that portion of the controller is more on the smaller side. The number pad IS a bit too much, though. If it's a lower number pad button then you have to fiddle around to hit it which isn't ideal mid-game. They probably should have designed the keypad to be above pause and option to having it jutting out the top so there wouldn't be anything that's too much of a leap away from your primary buttons.

 

I do like the keypad idea with the overlays, but it should have been a more compact design for reachability.

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4 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

I've always been curious why people seem to loath the Jaguar controller. I actually like it. I've had an N64 before, and that controller was crazy... a lot going on. The Playstation controller... had one of those too... it was ok. But personally, can someone explain to me why the Jaguar controller is (I think) universally hated?

 

I thought the keypad was a great component of the game, and allowed for the overlays which I don't think were used as often as they should be.

 

I have really large hands (long fingers), and the controller is perfect for me.

I totally agree with you! The N64 controller was quite daring as well and today is not well liked by anyone that didn't grow up using it. People like to jump on the bandwagon of making fun of things and adding them to the "top ten worst" lists. I found the Jag controller to be comfortable and function and if you consider the time period that it was designed and released it really isn't that strange.

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4 hours ago, alucardX said:

I totally agree with you! The N64 controller was quite daring as well and today is not well liked by anyone that didn't grow up using it. People like to jump on the bandwagon of making fun of things and adding them to the "top ten worst" lists. I found the Jag controller to be comfortable and function and if you consider the time period that it was designed and released it really isn't that strange.

Agreed.  The same thing happened with the 5200 controller. Yes it had reliability issues but it was the foundation to today's controller. It also was the most comfortable compared to any stick in that era.  

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The only thing wrong w/the Jag's controller is Atari's boneheaded decision to only put 3 action buttons on it. Even with all the mistakes made around the 3do, at least the default controller had 3 action buttons and 2 shoulders. The Pro controller should've been the launch controller, the entire keypad concept was also fairly useless aside from maybe the home computer ports. But that's obviously all in the past now.

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12 hours ago, madman said:

The only thing wrong w/the Jag's controller is Atari's boneheaded decision to only put 3 action buttons on it. Even with all the mistakes made around the 3do, at least the default controller had 3 action buttons and 2 shoulders. The Pro controller should've been the launch controller, the entire keypad concept was also fairly useless aside from maybe the home computer ports. But that's obviously all in the past now.

Personally I always viewed this as being on par with the way the Genesis controller was. They came with three "fire button" configurations and offered the six button configuration as an option. I seemed to me like Atari did the same thing possibly viewing it at the time as acceptable since Sega had gotten away with it.

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1 hour ago, alucardX said:

Personally I always viewed this as being on par with the way the Genesis controller was. They came with three "fire button" configurations and offered the six button configuration as an option. I seemed to me like Atari did the same thing possibly viewing it at the time as acceptable since Sega had gotten away with it.

It's more likely they didn't see the need (or want the expense) to change the design, considering the controller was copied from their previous STE controller, which had been designed a few years earlier. Of course, Atari should've realized at that time that certain popular genres of the time (most notably fighters) often required more than three buttons.

 

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