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Atari Freezer 2011 Declare Interest Thread

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I purchased mine yesterday. I'll be anxiously awaiting for this cool product to arrive.

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I have My IDE II, and it works well, the freezer also works great, but if I use them together,  I cannot read the files on my CF correctly. It seems, like the file system is broken. Any help? I am a noob, back to atari world after 20 years. So be gentle....please

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I have tried to put My IDE II behind sys check 2.2 and it works well, also if if i put freezer behind sys check there is no problem, but My IDE II has to be plugged into Sys check....Any ideas?

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5 hours ago, orgi666 said:

I have tried to put My IDE II behind sys check 2.2 and it works well, also if if i put freezer behind sys check there is no problem, but My IDE II has to be plugged into Sys check....Any ideas?

This sounds like the typical Atari bus load / PHI2 issue. If you use an Atari XE just plug the MyIDE cart into the cart slot on the XE Freezer adapter board, without SysCheck attached.

 

Also note that SysCheck and the Freezer don't work well together as they both use the same method to map memory in and thus will clash (eg if you try to use a ROM from SysCheck and then try to activate the Freezer).

 

so long,

 

Hias

Edited by HiassofT

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The problem is between My IDE and Freezer, I have tried Sys check only to see, if My IDE is not damaged. I dont use Freezer and Sys check  together. The funny thing is , that if i put Freezer behind Sys Check, and My IDE in the Sys check, all devices work well.... But if I use only Freezer and My IDE, I cannot access the CF card properly. 

 

Hias,  do you have My IDE and Freezer to try?

Edited by orgi666

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Sorry, I don't have a MyIDE II cartridge.

 

I have an old MyIDE+Flash cartridge but gave up on it a long time ago as it was well known for it's stability / timing issues. No idea if this was improved or fixed with the II version.

 

so long,

 

Hias

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7 hours ago, orgi666 said:

I have tried to put My IDE II behind sys check 2.2 and it works well, also if if i put freezer behind sys check there is no problem, but My IDE II has to be plugged into Sys check....Any ideas?

I was going to be using my Turbo Freezer (I'm still waiting for it to arrive) on my 1200XL w/PBI with both Syscheck 2.2 and MyIDE II as well. I didn't think about MyIDE II having some hiccups. But with Syscheck 2.2, original, I thought the cartridge port on it only worked with XE's anyway, I think it says it in the manual or maybe it's even print on the PCB? So it would not be an option for me to use the Syscheck 2.2 cart port.

 

But I did recently ask @HiassofT if there were any issues using Turbo Freezer and another PBI device together and if it was better for the Turbo Freezer to be first or second on the PBI chain too. He told me that it didn't matter what order they were in, but that the Syscheck and Freezer's sram is the same type using the same addresses and would clash. Not that I was looking to use both anyway, and I assumed that it would work fine to have Syscheck 2.2's memory disabled and just use the sram on the Turbo Freezer.

 

However, I have now decided to install the Turbo Freezer internally on my 800 Incognito instead, connected to Incognito's PBI output and mount the Turbo Freezer in the 800 with an access hatch on the 800 giving it a standard PBI port at the same time. I had been planning a DIY PBI port on the 800 Incognito anyway, like I did with my 1200XL, but using the Turbo Freezer for the port will be much cleaner and easier to do. I'll most likely have to swap out the connector for the Turbo Freezer cart on it's adapter board for a right angle one so it will all fit in my 800.

Edited by Gunstar
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I'm very sure it's an issue with the MyIDE cart - pretty much all IDE/CF carts have a long history of timing problems, showing symptoms exactly as you described.

 

so long,

 

Hias

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I think @HiassofT meant the issue was with IDE/CF cartridges for the Atari, not CF cards.

 

Has anyone else installed the Turbo Freezer 2011 in an 800 with Incognito? I thought I'd heard others did it already. Is there an issue with Incognito's CF drive and the Turbo Freezer? Incognito's CF drive works identical to a Side 2, correct? Any issues with SiDE 2/U1MB abd Turbo FReezer?

Edited by Gunstar

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9 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I was going to be using my Turbo Freezer (I'm still waiting for it to arrive) on my 1200XL w/PBI with both Syscheck 2.2 and MyIDE II as well. I didn't think about MyIDE II having some hiccups. But with Syscheck 2.2, original, I thought the cartridge port on it only worked with XE's anyway, I think it says it in the manual or maybe it's even print on the PCB? So it would not be an option for me to use the Syscheck 2.2 cart port. Will the Turbo Freezer's cartridge port work with XL's?

 

But I did recently ask @HiassofT if there were any issues using Turbo Freezer and another PBI device together and if it was better for the Turbo Freezer to be first or second on the PBI chain too. He told me that it didn't matter what order they were in, but that the Syscheck and Freezer's sram is the same type using the same addresses and would clash. Not that I was looking to use both anyway, and I assumed that it would work fine to have Syscheck 2.2's memory disabled and just use the sram on the Turbo Freezer.

 

However, I have now decided to install the Turbo Freezer internally on my 800 Incognito instead, connected to Incognito's PBI output and mount the Turbo Freezer in the 800 with an access hatch on the 800 giving it a standard PBI port at the same time. I had been planning a DIY PBI port on the 800 Incognito anyway, like I did with my 1200XL, but using the Turbo Freezer for the port will be much cleaner and easier to do.

I have an XE, so i can't say, but I would like to hear from you if you can get to work your Freezer together with My IDE....

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1 minute ago, Gunstar said:

I think @HiassofT meant the issue was with IDE/CF cartridges for the Atari, not CF cards.

But the cartridge works fine directly in the XE, and also in the Syscheck....

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3 minutes ago, orgi666 said:

I have an XE, so i can't say, but I would like to hear from you if you can get to work your Freezer together with My IDE....

Ok, I'll test it out on my XL with MyIDE II and Syscheck before I install it in my 800 w/Incognito. My Turbo Freezer is still in the post from Greece right now though...maybe it will show up today.

Edited by Gunstar

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9 minutes ago, orgi666 said:

But the cartridge works fine directly in the XE, and also in the Syscheck....

Right, but I believe @HiassofT is referring to IDE/CF carts having timing issues in conjunction with Turbo Freezer.  I use my MyIDE II fine with Syscheck too, however on my XL the MyIDE II is plugged into the 1200XL's cart port, not the Syscheck. But that shouldn't make a difference, and apparently it doesn't since you say MyIDE II works fine plugged into Syscheck. Apparently it's a matter of an issue only between the MyIDE II and the Turbo Freezer.

Edited by Gunstar

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Oh so, then it is a compatibility problem, guess I have to go for Side3 or some SIO device 

Edited by orgi666

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12 minutes ago, orgi666 said:

Oh so, then it is a compatibility problem, guess I have to go for Side3 or some SIO device 

And this is why it's probably a good idea for me to use the Turbo Freezer with my Incognito's CF drive too, since it's essentially a Side 2 drive.

 

But I thought you said at first that the MyIDE II does work with the Freezer as long as you plug the Freezer in behind the Syscheck and the  MyIDE II into the Syscheck? If it works fine that way, what's the problem? Why not just use it that way instead of looking for an alternative to the MyIDE II? Just make sure you aren't attempting to use sram in the Freezer and Syscheck at the same time.

Edited by Gunstar

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Haha, can you imagine an XE with Syscheck plugged in, and the Freezer on the other side? That is not ,how you want to use your Atari.... For testing it is not a problem,  but not for a daily use... And watch out, as you said, your Incognito uses CF, but Side3 is SD, that is why I think about Side3, not to get into same problem....

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@orgi666 Anyway, it just occurred to me why your MyIDE II works in the Syscheck with it all plugged in together, but not the Turbo Freezer alone. As @HiassofT said, it's a timing issue; this has to do with the PHI2 signal which he also mentioned. Obviously the reason it WILL work on the Sycheck board and not the Turbo Freezer is because the Syscheck produces it's own PHI2 signal on board to alleviate those timing issues, apparently the Turbo Freezer does not produce it's own PHI2 signal, so you get the Timing issues Hias spoke of. This happens when there are too many extensions on the Atari, through cartridge and PBI busses, which is why with some PBI devices and some other upgrades some developers have started including PHI2 signal generation on their boards. With all the upgrades we have these days, and many people installing as many as possible, timing issues are bound to crop up without some help. So it's not that your MyIDE II and Turbo Freezer are incompatible, it's just that timing issues are occurring with all of it plugged in together (minus Syscheck) and no PHI2 on the Turbo Freezer like is on the Syscheck. The Syscheck PHI2 is allowing it all to work together because it fixing the timing issue caused by a weak PHI2 signal over all those circuits, with only the MyIDE II and Turbo Freezer you don't have the Syscheck's PHI2 signal to correct it. The MyIDE II in conjunction with any PBI device that does not produce it's own PHI2 signal would probably have the same issue as MyIDE II & Turbo Freezer.

Edited by Gunstar

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9 minutes ago, orgi666 said:

Okay, finally i get it, so my solution to change my storage device should work just fine, thanks for the help. 

Maybe, maybe not. You better find out if people are using SIDE 2/3's successfully with the Turbo Freezer, it may be susceptible to the same timing issues anyway. If you go with an SIO storage device you are probably correct. I never even had an issue to begin with because the first PBI device I bought was the Syscheck with it's on-board PHI2 signal generator. I might have the same issue as you if I tried to use MyIDE II and Turbo Freezer only on my XL.

Edited by Gunstar

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There's no general incombatibility issue between the Turbo Freezer and the MyIDE carts that I'm aware of.

 

The problem is that the Atari timing is messed up (aka "PHI2 issues"), and there are well known mitigations that hardware upgrades can implement to avoid that. The Turbo Freezer 2005 was one of the first devices that included 74HCT123 to fix RAM/flash write timing (in addition to address latches to fix internal register writes in the CPLD) - and of course the 2011 versions also includes that 74HCT123.

 

For IDE/CF interfaces only fixing write timing is not enough, they must also fix read timing. The easiest way to do that is to simply do the "stabilizing mod" in the Atari, solder a wire to the 74LS08. Another possibility is to latch the address lines going to the IDE/CF device.

 

ISTR some IDE/CF interfaces were also plagued by other issues (could have been termination/ringing related and/or grounding issues), but can't remember all details.

 

I can't say for sure what's going wrong exactly in your case but as only the MyIDE interface seems to have issues it's very likely that it's been working "on the edge" for a while now and adding the Freezer just made the core issues more visible - probably other upgrades could have cause that as well.

 

so long,

 

Hias

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3 minutes ago, HiassofT said:

There's no general incombatibility issue between the Turbo Freezer and the MyIDE carts that I'm aware of.

 

The problem is that the Atari timing is messed up (aka "PHI2 issues"), and there are well known mitigations that hardware upgrades can implement to avoid that. The Turbo Freezer 2005 was one of the first devices that included 74HCT123 to fix RAM/flash write timing (in addition to address latches to fix internal register writes in the CPLD) - and of course the 2011 versions also includes that 74HCT123.

 

For IDE/CF interfaces only fixing write timing is not enough, they must also fix read timing. The easiest way to do that is to simply do the "stabilizing mod" in the Atari, solder a wire to the 74LS08. Another possibility is to latch the address lines going to the IDE/CF device.

 

ISTR some IDE/CF interfaces were also plagued by other issues (could have been termination/ringing related and/or grounding issues), but can't remember all details.

 

I can't say for sure what's going wrong exactly in your case but as only the MyIDE interface seems to have issues it's very likely that it's been working "on the edge" for a while now and adding the Freezer just made the core issues more visible - probably other upgrades could have cause that as well.

 

so long,

 

Hias

It can be, that my MyIDE is not the best piece you can get, even am not using it frequently,  maybe a production fault? Anyway,  I would like to know if anyone is using this combination successfully. For the rest my XE is as virgin as born, no upgrades or other changes...

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