Did some Atari 800's not have RAM carts inside?

[TapperP]

I've seen photos of Atari 800 with RAM carts inside like this:

 

 

And also photos with just bare boards, not carts, like this:

 

 

Did later production runs of the 800 not have the RAM carts? Would appreciate any info about this. Thanks.

Edited June 7, 2020 by TapperP

[+DrVenkman]

20 minutes ago, TapperP said:

Did later production runs of the 800 not have the RAM carts? Would appreciate any info about this. Thanks.

Yes. Sometime maybe a year or two after retail launch (so likely around early 1981 through early '82 or so), Atari began omitting the plastic cases around the RAM cards to alleviate customer complaints about overheating. None of the three 800's I have right now have cased RAM cards, and the one we had as a kid, purchased in the summer of 1983, had bare boards as well.

[a8isa1]

The reason was an overheating issue.   The memory got too warm in the cases.

 

Analog Computing published a blurb about it.   

 

I'm glad there was a simple fix.   My 800 used to crash in under an hour of use, even just sitting in BASIC.

 

After I took the single 16K board out of the case I never had a problem again. I still have the 800.

 

Eventually I upgraded the 800 to 48K but for a few years it had 24K and for several years it had 32K.

 

p.s.

 

DrVenkman beat me to it!  Just by seconds!

Edited June 7, 2020 by a8isa1

[TapperP]

Great info, thank you both.

[Tickled_Pink]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Yes. Sometime maybe a year or two after retail launch (so likely around early 1981 through early '82 or so), Atari began omitting the plastic cases around the RAM cards to alleviate customer complaints about overheating. None of the three 800's I have right now have cased RAM cards, and the one we had as a kid, purchased in the summer of 1983, had bare boards as well.

The one I had for a couple of years before I sold it about 10 years ago (stupid is as stupid does) had the cased RAM carts in it, which probably made it one of the earlier ones then?

[leech]

1 hour ago, Tickled_Pink said:

The one I had for a couple of years before I sold it about 10 years ago (stupid is as stupid does) had the cased RAM carts in it, which probably made it one of the earlier ones then?

I have one of each, but both look like they had a newer CPU, and neither had the CTIA in them, which woyld be the earliest batch.

The one with bare boards now is the one that I have my Incognito in, and sadly with the SCCC is having some issues after it has been powered on for a while.

Interestingly, the one with cases on the ram have a bit different color on the labels for them.  There are also differences like they had incluluded the plastic pieces to release the lid up, and they have buts for slotting in the cases as well, that is missing from my other one.

[Kyle22]

Every 800 must have at least one RAM card unless it has an Incognito.

 

[leech]

31 minutes ago, Kyle22 said:

Every 800 must have at least one RAM card unless it has an Incognito.

 

Yeah, I'd bet mine initially had the one, then was upgraded fully with the rest afterward. 

[Gunstar]

The 800 I have is one of the earliest, it had the CTIA, levers to open the top, and all the cards are in cases. I merely removed the metal backs from all my card cases, keeping the cards in the plastic case, and never had any over heating issues. I've got an Incognito now, so all the cards are in a display case.

[Rybags]

Metal back - is that the part with the memory config printed onto it?

I guess it forms part of the overall RF shielding.

Funny that Atari were paranoid about the RF emissions and likely did plenty of lab proto testing but seemingly forgot about thermal problems in the process.

[_The Doctor__]

Just make sure the pressure spacers are on the bare cards across the top...

most of the time thermal issue were not really a problem

These machines were used in some areas where this kind of shielding was needed

the cases being removed helped with cost reduction and heat

the later units had the pressure spacers across the tops of the bare boards to keep everything in place, this was good for shipping and any kind of movement or vibration.

For the most part the machines with properly spec'ed components would not have an issue even in a warm environment. Now put them in a hot environment, add more heat from a factory floor and so on and things can get hairy

So unless your getting hit with some elevated radiation, metal off or bare will extend component life.

Edited June 8, 2020 by _The Doctor__

[TGB1718]

My 800 until I fitted Incognito had the fully encased RAM cards, all 48K of them and never had any problems

with heat (even had an extra 4K in the left hand slot). 

Until I got my 130XE, this machine was on maybe 10+ hours a day with either kids playing games

or me programming. In fact no problems ever (now I've gone and done it...) ?

[+DrVenkman]

8 hours ago, Rybags said:

Funny that Atari were paranoid about the RF emissions and likely did plenty of lab proto testing but seemingly forgot about thermal problems in the process

Hey, they built it with functional vents!

 

I think one of the real disconnects was that Atari didn’t plan on users leaving their machines up and running for hours straight, nor did probably foresee the use of desks with monitor risers, with a small TV or monitor on top, limiting airflow around and through the machines. 

 

That said, the 48K 800 my step-brother and I had never overheated even tucked into the niche under the TV, but of course we had uncashed RAM boards. 

[Rybags]

I remember being surprised when a mate and I went to look at a prospective 800 for him to buy, probably around 1986.

He took (I think) Elektraglide with him as a test subject and we loaded it as part of the checkout procedure.

 

Went back 2 or 3 days later and they still had it running - at that time I rarely had any computer running much over half of a day.

Then probably 10 years ago, had my 130XE continuously running for almost 6 months which I thought wasn't bad until someone here said they had BBS machines that ran years at a time.

[TGB1718]

23 minutes ago, Rybags said:

Then probably 10 years ago, had my 130XE continuously running for almost 6 months which I thought wasn't bad until someone here said they had BBS machines that ran years at a time.

Just ask a Windows PC to try doing that, I worked for a large Bank some years ago and 99% of the time if somthing stopped

working it was usually Windows Servers/Workstations, the Unix ones just kept going, maybe there's a bit of Atari in UNIX/LINUX.

[Rybags]

Since not long after getting decent internet speed ~ 2005 I've run 24/7 most of the time.

 

I remember with either '98 or XP there was some bug where it'd crash if you ran it 38 days straight or something - I think it was later fixed in a service pack.

But in those days, the hardware wasn't real stable and the OSes and drivers were crash-prone so it was rare to go a week without a reboot.

 

These days I'll sometimes go a couple of months between reboots and powerdowns are maybe a few a year for cleaning or upgrades.

[TGB1718]

I think the key these days is "Don't do Updates" (ye, try stopping them!!!)

[+DrVenkman]

4 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

I think the key these days is "Don't do Updates" (ye, try stopping them!!!)

Nah. These days, Win10 updates itself in-place for most things: Defender anti-malware and anti-virus updates itself basically daily; most drivers and stuff do the same, with no restart required. So long as the hardware is healthy (*), the system can stay up and running for months, easy.

 

That said, the longest-running device I have personally is a Raspberry Pi 3 that ran for over 2 years straight (uptime reported nearly 800 days before I had to relocate the thing and needed to power it down). When I was still using MacBook Pros as my daily machines, they too ran for months without rebooting, but the core of OS X/MacOS is BSD, so it’s Unix). 

 

(*) Flaky hardware is definitely a thing - these things are built to such tight tolerances, with such tiny components and traces, and price is such a market driver, that’s PCs go down far more often due to failing hardware than software these days, in my experience.

[Gunstar]

My current PC, still running Windows 7, would constantly, and I mean almost daily, crash on me and I'd have to do system restore every time. That was when I had my Windows updates turned on. I've had Windows update turned off for about 4 years now, and only had to do a system restore several times.  Hardware wise, I've never had an issue with this PC except changing out the hard drive about 3 years ago. My PC is constantly on, 24/7, even if it's seep mode. My conclusion is MS updates are bullshit that only cause problems. I have security apps that do essential updates, not Windows. I'll be turning it into a UNIX machine soon, instead of upgrading to a new computer or another Windows. F Microsoft. Even my Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One are constantly crashing and needing a reboot. No such issues with any other consoles I own or owned, though none of them had HDD's. They all still work flawlessly with their CD drives too. I'm definitely done with Microsoft and Windows machines once I get away from W7.

 

I've only been using Windows machines for the last 20+ years because I get used PC's from people for free, when they "upgrade" and I get them sorted out and use them. The plus is I've never had to pay good money for a Windows PC, and never would. Still, I should have gone to Unix long ago...

Edited June 8, 2020 by Gunstar

[TGB1718]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

That said, the longest-running device I have personally is a Raspberry Pi 3 that ran for over 2 years straight

Raspberry Pi running Linux would definately run for years, even if you did updates, when I was a system admin, even with major updates

Unix systems didn't need rebooting where as pretty much every time an update with Windows required re-booting

(then usually uninstall the update cos it caused more problems than it was supposed to fix)

 

Maybe it's just me, but if the ST had been appropriately priced and spec'd it could have been a good competitor for the PC, lets

face it the ST could emulate a PC and a MAC at the time.

 

[+slx]

I had a PAL 800 with cased RAM and never had any problems using it for hours but probably hardly ever had more than 27 degrees C ambient temperature. 

[Faicuai]

20 hours ago, TapperP said:

I've seen photos of Atari 800 with RAM carts inside like this:

 

 

And also photos with just bare boards, not carts, like this:

 

 

Did later production runs of the 800 not have the RAM carts? Would appreciate any info about this. Thanks.

 

The 800's RF shield-frame not only acts as a RF-barrier, but it also happens to be a GIGANTIC heat-sink.

 

Not so much when the RAM and Personality (ROM) boards are encased in a mostly plastic cover, but when they shed their covering (as they did during later production) heats radiates more efficiently and a good part of it gets absorbed by the RF-frame (walls), itself.

 

Inside temperatures (with top-case cover in place, and fully closed) will reach 38c-41c easily, and will remain there for the most part (even with INCOGNITO installed). This is measured with Atari Lab's temp-probe, as well as thermal-gun (by quickly opening the top-cover after an overnight-run).

 

The good thing going for the 800 is that massive shield-frame, and that beefy / large power-supply unit (which happens to be very easy to service and upgrade, too).

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Faicuai

[leech]

9 hours ago, Faicuai said:

 

The 800's RF shield-frame not only acts as a RF-barrier, but it also happens to be a GIGANTIC heat-sink.

 

Not so much when the RAM and Personality (ROM) boards are encased in a mostly plastic cover, but when they shed their covering (as they did during later production) heats radiates more efficiently and a good part of it gets absorbed by the RF-frame (walls), itself.

 

Inside temperatures (with top-case cover in place, and fully closed) will reach 38c-41c easily, and will remain there for the most part (even with INCOGNITO installed). This is measured with Atari Lab's temp-probe, as well as thermal-gun (by quickly opening the top-cover after an overnight-run).

 

The good thing going for the 800 is that massive shield-frame, and that beefy / large power-supply unit (which happens to be very easy to service and upgrade, too).

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

Yeah, I would have equated my issues with my Incognito / SCCC 800 with heat, as it starts after a few minutes of being on... but it happens if the case is on or off, so not caused by the case heating up!  It acts more like a power drain anyhow, like something isn't grounded quite right.  I need to look some more what is going on...

[kogden]

16 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

Maybe it's just me, but if the ST had been appropriately priced and spec'd it could have been a good competitor for the PC, lets

face it the ST could emulate a PC and a MAC at the time.

 

The ST was far cheaper than a comparable PC in 1985 and spanked it in every way that counted.  I still have mine.

 

They also overheated as badly as the 800.  And the build quality left a lot to be desired.  But they were awesome too.  

[_The Doctor__]

interestingly the ST issue wasn't exactly over heating either, it was an early socket design issues not related to Atari, and there was a fix... metal cross braces and shims.... it held the square sockets mid points again the chips and maybe just maybe acted as small heat sinks...

so after a cool down and a drop check, if the machine was working.... the square chips were removed from their sockets... heat applied to the socket allowed to relax and cool, chips were then re inserted with the cross brace and shim assembly... problem solved...     socket fatigue and deformation, go figure.

Edited June 9, 2020 by _The Doctor__