Atari ST CP/M

[jblenkle]

I seem to recall there was a CP/M emulator for the Atari ST. I've been searching all over trying to find it, but am coming up blank. Does anyone know where it might be found?

[Zogging Hell]

33 minutes ago, jblenkle said:

I seem to recall there was a CP/M emulator for the Atari ST. I've been searching all over trying to find it, but am coming up blank. Does anyone know where it might be found?

If no-one else can help more quickly I do have it somewhere in my backups (and the utilities disk). It may take a while to work out where the hell it is on my server though, so hopefully someone else can leap in.

[ataricrypt]

Google for 'Floppyshop Atari ST' because I'm sure exxos has this listed under languages. Hth

[jblenkle]

8 hours ago, ataricrypt said:

Google for 'Floppyshop Atari ST' because I'm sure exxos has this listed under languages. Hth

Thanks....found it...not sure if this is the same one I remember though.

[ataricrypt]

Great. Let us know how it works /etc. Stuff like this is very interesting. Good luck

[English Invader]

I have a copy of the CP/M emulator knocking about as well.  It was part of a job lot for an original model ST I bought a few years back.

[HuskyTE]

You are talking about the cp/m z80 emulator or a really 68k cp/m?

[pixelmischief]

Isn't CP/M an operating system?  It isn't emulated as much as simply executed, right?  Not trying to be pedantic, just really want to clarify it.  Not sure myself.

[TGB1718]

CP/M is an OS and as such is emulated on the ST much in the same way MSDOS and MAC are emulated.

 

It can't just be executed as the ST has it's own OS and this is whats running the code, if you didn't want

to emulate, you would have to have CP/M in it's own ROM or be able to switch out TOS and bootstrap

CP/M off a disk into RAM (would have to be compiled into 68000 code)

[pixelmischief]

16 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

CP/M is an OS and as such is emulated on the ST much in the same way MSDOS and MAC are emulated.

 

It can't just be executed as the ST has it's own OS and this is whats running the code, if you didn't want

to emulate, you would have to have CP/M in it's own ROM or be able to switch out TOS and bootstrap

CP/M off a disk into RAM (would have to be compiled into 68000 code)

So...bear with me.  I mean not to challenge, but to either inform or be informed.

 

MSDOS runs as an OS on (Motorola 68K) Atari because the (Intel x86) hardware that MSDOS was compiled for is also emulated.  MAC OS also runs as an OS on Atari by loading the OS ROM images into memory and running them on much a "thinner" emulation layer, since it and the Atari have the same CPU.

 

The OS in ROM on the Atari can be replaced in memory with an OS read from disk, as in the case of MiNT.  OS patches also do this; just not replacing the whole kernel, but some certain driver.  If CP/M were to be PORTED to the ST, then it could simply run like MiNT.  Otherwise, the hardware platform that the CP/M software was compiled for would also need be emulated to run it.

 

Is this your understanding as well?

[jblenkle]

3 hours ago, HuskyTE said:

You are talking about the cp/m z80 emulator or a really 68k cp/m?

If I recall correctly, it was the Z80 emulator.

[MrMaddog]

On 6/29/2020 at 10:08 AM, pixelmischief said:

So...bear with me.  I mean not to challenge, but to either inform or be informed.

 

MSDOS runs as an OS on (Motorola 68K) Atari because the (Intel x86) hardware that MSDOS was compiled for is also emulated.  MAC OS also runs as an OS on Atari by loading the OS ROM images into memory and running them on much a "thinner" emulation layer, since it and the Atari have the same CPU.

 

The OS in ROM on the Atari can be replaced in memory with an OS read from disk, as in the case of MiNT.  OS patches also do this; just not replacing the whole kernel, but some certain driver.  If CP/M were to be PORTED to the ST, then it could simply run like MiNT.  Otherwise, the hardware platform that the CP/M software was compiled for would also need be emulated to run it.

 

Is this your understanding as well?

GEMDOS was a port of DRI's own MS-DOS clone, that's why TOS can natively read PC formated disks.  Originally it was to be based on the 68K version of CP/M but it just wasn't feasable.  There's still confusion about TOS being based on CP/M-68K because of the demo units at CES '85 running it, but on the finished ST's nope...

 

Magic Sac / Spectre GCR runs the code on the Mac ROMS, via the cart, and remaps calls to the Mac hardware to the ST version...so it's what kids nowadays would call virtualization.  The PC version of MS-DOS does require full emulation through either software (slow!) or an Intel clone CPU.

 

MiNT runs as an extension of the existing TOS operating system by adding UNIX-like functions, in that regard think of TOS as a BIOS with a built in DOS & basic GUI.

 

Hope this clears some things up...

 

 

 

[TGB1718]

11 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

The PC version of MS-DOS does require full emulation through either software (slow!) or an Intel clone CPU.

A friend of mine had one of those hardware addons to run MSDOS, I think it was called SideKick ?? maybe!!

[zzip]

I remember downloading the CP/M emulator for ST BITD,  it was from a legit site, not a "warez" site, so my impression was that Atari made it available for free.

 

Unfortunely, I knew next to nothing about CP/M so I never got far with it.

[Atari8guy]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:23 AM, ataricrypt said:

Google for 'Floppyshop Atari ST' because I'm sure exxos has this listed under languages. Hth

Is the entire Floppyshop collection available for download anywhere as a single archive?

[Lynxpro]

As far as I recall, it was a software emulator which emulated the Z80 so CP/M software could run using it [since the Z80 was the dominate CPU associated with CP/M systems before the dark times, before PC-DOS/MS-DOS].

 

It was a cheap answer for the 520ST to match one of the features the Commodore 128 could do [since it had an actual Z80 inside it for its CP/M mode] in order to entice would-be C128 purchasers to buy the ST instead. In truth, CP/M was pretty much dead before the C128 or the 520STm shipped.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Lynxpro

[+Stephen]

46 minutes ago, Lynxpro said:

As far as I recall, it was a software emulator which emulated the Z80 so CP/M software could run using it [since the Z80 was the dominate CPU associated with CP/M systems before the dark times, before PC-DOS/MS-DOS].

 

It was a cheap answer for the 520ST to match one of the features the Commodore 128 could do [since it had an actual Z80 inside it for its CP/M mode] in order to entice would-be C128 purchasers to buy the ST instead. In truth, CP/M was pretty much dead before the C128 or the 520STm shipped.

Wow - so they went the lazy route and didn't implement CP/M68K?

[zzip]

16 hours ago, Stephen said:

Wow - so they went the lazy route and didn't implement CP/M68K?

CP/M 68K was the original plan.   But they ran into issues and quickly hacked together GEMDOS instead.

[MrMaddog]

6 hours ago, zzip said:

CP/M 68K was the original plan.   But they ran into issues and quickly hacked together GEMDOS instead.

Which ended up being very beneficial for reading & writing DOS formated disks in a PC dominated market.

[oracle_jedi]

I decided to pull out my 520ST and have fun exploring some of the original disks that came with the my ST from Silica Shop back in 1987, and that included the CP/M emulator.

 

This is really a Z80 emulator on top of which is running a port of CP/M.  Its a bit buggy at times, with the system refusing to recognize disk swaps, and it is almost unusable on a single-drive system.  But with my 1040 switched to disable the internal drive, and the HxC emulating both A and B, I went down the CP/M rabbit hole, which was both frustrating and entertaining.

 

Attached is a ZIP archive of what I have been playing with. 

 

There is a TOS format disk with the emulator.  And a desktop INF file set to medium res and a color scheme designed to emulate phosphor green on my 1084.

 

And there are several "CPM" format disks of CP/M files I have transferred and played with including Microsoft BASIC, Turbo Pascal, Wordstar and the Infocom adventures Zork, Zork 2, Zork 3, Plantelfall, Leather Goddesses of Phobos and Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.   There's also two disks of Creative Computing's BASIC games including classics like Hamurabi and Hangman.   

 

The CP/M "boot disk" isn't really needed to boot the system but is the original CP/M tools transferred to a CP/M disk.  I've added a few extras like PIP and UNZIP.

 

Remember that the CP/M emulator can only read and write single-sided disks.  You'll get sector errors and garbage if you try to read/write a double sided disk.  The HxC Floppy Emulator GUI for Windows that I use allows me to create 360K Atari ST disks but they still end up double sided, so I have to reformat them again in TOS.  You might notice every CP/M disk has TOSDIR and TOSCPM on it as this how you read and copy files from a TOS disk to a CP/M one.

 

Anyway, I am attaching the ZIP file here in case anyone else wants to explore this peculiar package from the early days of the ST.

 

Atari ST CPM.zip

[Chri O.]

The CP/M & the tragic story of Gary Arlen Kildall.

Kildall created the CP/M operating system among other operating systems (GEM) and programming tools, and subsequently founded Digital Research, Inc. to market and sell his software products. 

GEM (Graphics Environment Manager) was created by Digital Research (DRI).

In Memory of GARY A. KILDALL May 19, 1942 -- July 11, 1994

[mikro]

On 6/29/2020 at 3:43 PM, TGB1718 said:

It can't just be executed as the ST has it's own OS and this is whats running the code, if you didn't want

to emulate, you would have to have CP/M in it's own ROM or be able to switch out TOS and bootstrap

CP/M off a disk into RAM (would have to be compiled into 68000 code)

EMUTOS.PRG would strongly disagree with this statement. You can execute an OS from another OS without any issue.

[hwrd]

8 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

I decided to pull out my 520ST and have fun exploring some of the original disks that came with the my ST from Silica Shop back in 1987, and that included the CP/M emulator.

 

This is really a Z80 emulator on top of which is running a port of CP/M.  Its a bit buggy at times, with the system refusing to recognize disk swaps, and it is almost unusable on a single-drive system.  But with my 1040 switched to disable the internal drive, and the HxC emulating both A and B, I went down the CP/M rabbit hole, which was both frustrating and entertaining.

 

Attached is a ZIP archive of what I have been playing with. 

 

There is a TOS format disk with the emulator.  And a desktop INF file set to medium res and a color scheme designed to emulate phosphor green on my 1084.

 

And there are several "CPM" format disks of CP/M files I have transferred and played with including Microsoft BASIC, Turbo Pascal, Wordstar and the Infocom adventures Zork, Zork 2, Zork 3, Plantelfall, Leather Goddesses of Phobos and Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.   There's also two disks of Creative Computing's BASIC games including classics like Hamurabi and Hangman.   

 

The CP/M "boot disk" isn't really needed to boot the system but is the original CP/M tools transferred to a CP/M disk.  I've added a few extras like PIP and UNZIP.

 

Remember that the CP/M emulator can only read and write single-sided disks.  You'll get sector errors and garbage if you try to read/write a double sided disk.  The HxC Floppy Emulator GUI for Windows that I use allows me to create 360K Atari ST disks but they still end up double sided, so I have to reformat them again in TOS.  You might notice every CP/M disk has TOSDIR and TOSCPM on it as this how you read and copy files from a TOS disk to a CP/M one.

 

Anyway, I am attaching the ZIP file here in case anyone else wants to explore this peculiar package from the early days of the ST.

 

Atari ST CPM.zip 2.31 MB · 6 downloads

As I read this thread, I thought "I have to look for this".

Thanks for the download, much appreciated!!

 

(I do remember having a copy in '87, I think.)

[hwrd]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:00 PM, zzip said:

CP/M 68K was the original plan.   But they ran into issues and quickly hacked together GEMDOS instead.

 

My understanding was CP/M 68K did not have folders, and GEMDOS was something Digital Research had wrote recently (which had folder support).  Myself, I would not describe GEM nor GEMDOS as hacked together, although one can describe the port to the 68000/ST that way, if they wish.

 

The sense I got from the articles/interviews I read was the quandary of "older, real world tested code and implementation of CP/M 68K" versus "the more featureful, but not well tested in the real world GEMDOS". 

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

On 1/6/2021 at 8:00 AM, zzip said:

CP/M 68K was the original plan.   But they ran into issues and quickly hacked together GEMDOS instead.

That sounds pretty insulting. Why would someone go with CP/M in 1984 ?  GEMDOS for 68K self was done decently.

 

More interesting is hard disk support. Can someone describe in short what hard disk support was in CP/M ? Capabilities, filesystem ?