Does the ColecoVision + SGM = the ADAM?

[Fazyx]

I apologize if i'm not writing this in the correct area. I am just wondering, if I buy a Coleco ADAM, is that equivalent to having a ColecoVision + SGM, or is that a whole different beast? I'm looking to make home brew games in my spare time, but I want to test the carts on the real machine when the time comes. Also from a developers point of view, which would be the better machine to have? I also apologize if this is a silly question. xD

Edited June 15, 2020 by Fazyx

[+nanochess]

It's different because the Super Game Module adds a AY-3-8910 sound chip, this chip isn't included in the Coleco Adam.

 

Also the Super Game Module adds 32K of RAM mapped in a similar way to Coleco Adam, so some SGM games can work in Adam but doesn't have sound.

[Fazyx]

That's interesting, thanks for telling me. Can the SGM be used in the Adam too, or would there be conflicts if someone tried it?

[jblenkle]

4 minutes ago, Fazyx said:

That's interesting, thanks for telling me. Can the SGM be used in the Adam too, or would there be conflicts if someone tried it?

Yes, the SGM works on the ADAM.

[Fazyx]

This info will influence my choice when i buy one of the two machines thank you guys! I'm leaning more towards Adam at the moment. xD

[retroillucid]

2 hours ago, Fazyx said:

This info will influence my choice when i buy one of the two machines thank you guys! I'm leaning more towards Adam at the moment. xD

You also have this option

https://collectorvision.com/shop/colecovision/collectorvision-phoenix/

[youki]

ColecoVision + SGM = ADAM - AY-3-8910 - KEYBOARD   =  MSX - MSX BIOS - KEYBOARD 

[NIAD]

To take the explanation a step further...

 

All SGM required games would work on the ADAM with the following stipulations:

 

- if the game is programmed to use the SGM sound chip (ay-3-8910), you will not get that sound output. Some games use the TI sound chip only so you will get sound and some use both the TI and AY sound chips, so you will only get TI sound output.

 

- some games test to see if the SGM is connected and if NOT, a screen will be displayed that states that the SGM is required. So the programmer locks out use on the ADAM if the SGM is not connected. Examples of games would be the majority developed by Opcode.

 

[Fazyx]

8 hours ago, retroillucid said:

You also have this option

https://collectorvision.com/shop/colecovision/collectorvision-phoenix/

Woah, I had no idea this was a thing, thank you for linking that retroillucid!

 

6 hours ago, youki said:

ColecoVision + SGM = ADAM - AY-3-8910 - KEYBOARD   =  MSX - MSX BIOS - KEYBOARD 

So wait, the Coleco is similar to the MSX inside under those circumstances? That explains why BlueMSX can also run Coleco games. Making cross compiled code between the two should be easy then no?

 

4 minutes ago, NIAD said:

To take the explanation a step further...

 

All SGM required games would work on the ADAM with the following stipulations:

 

- if the game is programmed to use the SGM sound chip (ay-3-8910), you will not get that sound output. Some games use the TI sound chip only so you will get sound and some use both the TI and AY sound chips, so you will only get TI sound output.

 

- some games test to see if the SGM is connected and if NOT, a screen will be displayed that states that the SGM is required. So the programmer locks out use on the ADAM if the SGM is not connected. Examples of games would be the majority developed by Opcode.

 

Thank you NIAD, that explanation pretty much clears it all up for me.

[Pixelboy]

1 hour ago, Fazyx said:

So wait, the Coleco is similar to the MSX inside under those circumstances? That explains why BlueMSX can also run Coleco games. Making cross compiled code between the two should be easy then no?

You could say the MSX and ColecoVision are "cousins". There are some differences in architecture, sound chips and controller inputs, so porting a game from one machine to another is usually possible, but can yield some surprising challenges. The worst is when the game seems to run correctly but suddenly crashes for no apparent reason. Good luck finding the source of the problem...

 

[youki]

16 hours ago, Fazyx said:

23 hours ago, youki said:

ColecoVision + SGM = ADAM - AY-3-8910 - KEYBOARD   =  MSX - MSX BIOS - KEYBOARD 

So wait, the Coleco is similar to the MSX inside under those circumstances? That explains why BlueMSX can also run Coleco games. Making cross compiled code between the two should be easy then no?

It is why we have so much homebrew MSX port on Colecovision...

 

Another equation is true :

 

Colecovision - Coleco Bios =  Sega SG 1000   

 

It explains also what we have so much SG 1000 port...

 

But in general  :  Colecovision,  SG1000 , MSX , MTX , Spectravideo SV318, Yeno/Sega SC 3000  and surely few other computer/console i forgot   are all very close in term of architecture.

 

[MrPix]

Announcing the CGM1, the "Cute Game Module" - an AY-3-8910 for the Adam.

Hehehehe

But yes. As game cartridges were written targeting specific CPUs, memory maps, and VDPs, they would work across many systems with minimal rework if they did not require resources or functions provided by the BIOS on some systems. Typically, this means the cartridge booted and used its own IO routines. A game could work on almost any Z80A system just by altering the IO routines and screen handling.

[CrazyBoss]

4 hours ago, MrPix said:

Announcing the CGM1, the "Cute Game Module" - an AY-3-8910 for the Adam.

Hehehehe

But yes. As game cartridges were written targeting specific CPUs, memory maps, and VDPs, they would work across many systems with minimal rework if they did not require resources or functions provided by the BIOS on some systems. Typically, this means the cartridge booted and used its own IO routines. A game could work on almost any Z80A system just by altering the IO routines and screen handling.

It could work if the soundchip is responding the same ports as the SGM. The games I have converted (from MSX) to run on the ColecoVision, will test if its an Adam if it is it will not enable the SGM Memory, then it will look for the AY-Chip, Depending on the game, it will take advantage of the AY-Chip, or it will Simply say SGM needed!

[MrPix]

Where is the 8910 mapped?

[Tursi]

My data may be incomplete, but I have:

Port 0x50 - sound address write

Port 0x51- sound data write

Port 0x52 - sound data read

 

[MrPix]

Cheers.

[opcode]

On 6/14/2020 at 10:33 PM, Fazyx said:

I apologize if i'm not writing this in the correct area. I am just wondering, if I buy a Coleco ADAM, is that equivalent to having a ColecoVision + SGM, or is that a whole different beast? I'm looking to make home brew games in my spare time, but I want to test the carts on the real machine when the time comes. Also from a developers point of view, which would be the better machine to have? I also apologize if this is a silly question. xD

 

In case you decide to go with the ADAM+SGM combination, we recently started pre-order for the 5th run. Please contact Grazi if you would like a SGM (info@opcodegames.com). We start shipping around November. Boxes are already printing in China. 

 

If you decide to go the Phoenix route, no problem, Phoenix includes a licensed version of the SGM. 

 

Avoid clones if you can, as there is no guarantee they will run the games.

[MrPix]

1 minute ago, opcode said:

Avoid clones if you can, as there is no guarantee they will run the games.

I think this is a nice bit of FUD. I almost want to make a clone just to run all the games. I would even guarantee it.

[mumbai]

6 minutes ago, opcode said:

Avoid clones if you can, as there is no guarantee they will run the games.

 

2 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I think this is a nice bit of FUD.

I believe this may have been made in reference to the "JuiceBox" that was produced a couple years back, which was iffy at best, as I can think of no other extant clones.

Edited June 18, 2020 by mumbai
concision

[opcode]

Just now, MrPix said:

I think this is a nice bit of FUD. I almost want to make a clone just to run all the games. I would even guarantee it.

 

Great, another Juice (or perhaps a new nick), smart guy who shows up from no where and decide he can do whatever he wants. My two advices for you: 1) create something new, this is a small community, we don't need clones. 2) Your attitude won't take you too far here...

[MrPix]

I have a couple of reels of 32K SRAMs and 144x genuine AY-3-8910 on hand. I know where the sound chip is mapped and already have that working since learning the IO addresses yesterday.

That said, the only way I'd release something in direct competition with an existing actively supported product in the market is if I feel the seller is price-gouging or making an inferior product.

I don't have any incentive to make an SGM. Anyhow, I have better ideas that make the SGM look like a toy

[MrPix]

1 minute ago, opcode said:

 

Great, another Juice (or perhaps a new nick), smart guy who shows up from no where and decide he can do whatever he wants. My two advices for you: 1) create something new, this is a small community, we don't need clones. 2) Your attitude won't take you too far here...

Hardly.

I haven't 'just shown up', and I can do what I want. In the next few weeks I'm releasing a TMS-RGB board, which gives RGB to CV and Adam (and any 9928-based machine). It's quite superior to the citrus3000psi RGB board and others, and works in a completely new way. It'll give accurate colors, and works with NTSC and PAL systems.

I'm currently working on a CV clone - not an FPGA implementation, but a direct board replacement that has modern power regulation, and part of the SGM capability built in (the larger RAM and more granular address decoding). It has the RGB circuit directly built in, and would be used for repairing dead CVs where the motherboard is beyond economic repair. It only requires a donor 9928 or F18A.

I released my first expansion in 1984, released the very first 512K expansion with battery backed clock for the Amiga, the Sam Coupe breathed its first breath of life on my bench. I was one of the designers of the translate lookaside buffer on the first ARM with cache. I'm not here to throw out "I've been doing this longer than you." I respect what you've managed to do with somewhat limited resources.

I literally just said I have no plans to make an SGM. I don't compete with existing traders. I work to improve the hobbyist scene, not compete with people and harm their livelihoods.

But way to assume, dude.

 

[opcode]

2 minutes ago, MrPix said:

Hardly.

I haven't 'just shown up', and I can do what I want. In the next few weeks I'm releasing a TMS-RGB board, which gives RGB to CV and Adam (and any 9928-based machine). It's quite superior to the citrus3000psi RGB board and others, and works in a completely new way. It'll give accurate colors, and works with NTSC and PAL systems.

I'm currently working on a CV clone - not an FPGA implementation, but a direct board replacement that has modern power regulation, and part of the SGM capability built in (the larger RAM and more granular address decoding). It has the RGB circuit directly built in, and would be used for repairing dead CVs where the motherboard is beyond economic repair. It only requires a donor 9928 or F18A.

I released my first expansion in 1984, released the very first 512K expansion with battery backed clock for the Amiga, the Sam Coupe breathed its first breath of life on my bench. I was one of the designers of the translate lookaside buffer on the first ARM with cache. I'm not here to throw out "I've been doing this longer than you." I respect what you've managed to do with somewhat limited resources.

I literally just said I have no plans to make an SGM. I don't compete with existing traders. I work to improve the hobbyist scene, not compete with people and harm their livelihoods.

But way to assume, dude.

 

 

That is the spirit, keep like that.

[digress]

A drop in replacement motherboard for dead colecovisions to revive dead cases would be welcome.

 

I love the original colecovision case and would love to just make them work again like new.

 

 

[MrPix]

My feelings exactly. And there's a LOT of overlap with the Adam's top board. Mostly, using semi-modern SRAM for the main memory and VDP memory reduces power draw a lot, and adding in competent RGB and S-Video/composite from there gives much cleaner results than the original system. I opted to just put 32K in them because it is cheaper than smaller SRAMs. I debated putting an 8910 on there but I only have a few known genuine parts left, and everything on the market seems to be blacktopped/remarked or relabeled YM devices. 

The Adam's lower board is a lot more extensive than the SGM, adding memory, Adamlink, internal expansion of an extremely frustrating design, and quite extensive paging and memory selection hardware to pick between multiple boot ROMs and memory configurations. It's a genuinely schizophrenic design.