Does Jaguar have 3d geometry ? 3D Graphic GPU?

[+Stephen]

40 minutes ago, JagChris said:

All we have is the expert testimony of one Adisak Pochanayon. In lieu of source codes this is what I'm basing my speculation on. He's testified at a 30X efficiency increase. Allowing the dsp to multitask. And since NBA jam has no problem doing sound during gameplay I'm leaning towards their dsp engine.  

 

 

Yeah - the same "expert" testimony that said the camera work in WMCJ was superbly bad ass, and the press slammed it.  The same "expert" testimony of adisak that said how beautiful the hi-resolution graphics were in WMCJ, and the press slammed it.

 

I am an expert when I testify about myself.  But if I say I have a 12 inch penis, it doesn't make it so.

[+CyranoJ]

56 minutes ago, JagChris said:

And since NBA jam has no problem doing sound during gameplay I'm leaning towards their dsp engine.  

That is ridiculous, and you know it. Please name a game that has problems doing sound during gameplay.

[JagChris]

23 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Yeah - the same "expert" testimony that said the camera work in WMCJ was superbly bad ass, and the press slammed it.  The same "expert" testimony of adisak that said how beautiful the hi-resolution graphics were in WMCJ, and the press slammed it.

I am an expert and I love the graphics, bright florescent colors, the scaling etc and camera work in WMCJ. Also comparing subjective reviews is silly and isn't the area of expertise he's being cited for. 

 

And I do believe LD has spent many a paragraph deriding these same expert publications. 

 

@CJ, since the engjnes we're comparing, one wasn't able to do sound during gameplay until recently. 

 

[JagChris]

I'm not going to argue about this I just put my thoughts that it would have helped. Made things better. What HVS accomplished no one has convinced me has been done on the Jag before or since. And yes I believe it would have helped. 

 

Everyone else can make whatever decision they want. 

[+CyranoJ]

43 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I am an expert and I love the graphics, bright florescent colors, the scaling etc and camera work in WMCJ. Also comparing subjective reviews is silly and isn't the area of expertise he's being cited for. 

 

And I do believe LD has spent many a paragraph deriding these same expert publications. 

 

@CJ, since the engjnes we're comparing, one wasn't able to do sound during gameplay until recently. 

 

Um, if you read what I said about the doom sound engine in the slayer thread you will see all I did was enable mixing, which, most likely they ran out of time to implement. 

 

It is running the music using it's native code and is quite capable of music during gameplay as has been proved. 

 

This is the third time this week your posts have been shown to be incorrect.  Please stop posting your opinions as facts. 

 

Quote

I am an expert

Please, show us your credentials so we may accept your expert testimony.

[JagChris]

27 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

Um, if you read what I said about the doom sound engine in the slayer thread you will see all I did was enable mixing, which, most likely they ran out of time to implement. 

 

It is running the music using it's native code and is quite capable of music during gameplay as has been proved. 

 

This is the third time this week your posts have been shown to be incorrect.  Please stop posting your opinions as facts. 

 

Please, show us your credentials so we may accept your expert testimony.

 I have 30 years or better playing video games. Makes me an expert in judging coloring scaling and such. 

 

it took 25 years after a team of developers worked on Doom for it to get figured out. There was no such hassle with the NBA  engine. if it was as well done it would have done in game music from the jump.

 

Please show me the 2X previous  this week I've been proven incorrect? I'll give you the one time where I assumed high voltages dev techniques converted at an earlier time than they did.

 

Please name the other one?

[+CyranoJ]

 

Quote

 I have 30 years or better playing video games. Makes me an expert in judging coloring scaling and such. 

That makes you a gamer, not an expert coder, artist, or geometry wizard.

 

Quote

it took 25 years after a team of developers worked on Doom for it to get figured out.

It took a couple of hours a night for about a week of actually looking at the code with no understanding of where it came from.  Whoever wrote it could have done it much quicker given they already understood what it was doing.  The time gap inbetween that is utterly meaningless and irreleveant.

 

Quote

Please show me the 2X previous  this week I've been proven incorrect?

1. There is screen tearing in Native.  You conveniently stopped responding in that thread after you were proven incorrect.

2. The HVS issue you mentioned.

3. Now, here

 

 

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, JagChris said:

I have 30 years or better playing video games.

LMAO - wow.  That's like saying I watched people drive cars on TV shows for 30 years so I am an expert driver.  I've watched doctors on TV so I can give expert advice on medical issues.  How much code have you done?  Fantastic - this explains tons.  Your "expertise" is believed because you have played a lot of video games.  Wow - just wow.

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, JagChris said:

I'm not going to argue about this I just put my thoughts that it would have helped. Made things better. What HVS accomplished no one has convinced me has been done on the Jag before or since. And yes I believe it would have helped. 

 

Everyone else can make whatever decision they want. 

Reality is that HVS games are mediocre at best, with a notable exception being a port. 

[JagChris]

6 hours ago, Stephen said:

Yeah - the same "expert" testimony that said the camera work in WMCJ was superbly bad ass, and the press slammed it.  The same "expert" testimony of adisak

I was referring to expert testimony in judging video games. Such as wmcj

[JagChris]

@agradeneu not what I was referring to.

[+Sauron]

JagChris, you pick the wrong hills to die on. That must be a special gift, as I have rarely seen anyone do that quite so often as you.

 

6 hours ago, JagChris said:

I am an expert

You're getting dangerously close to Liard territory here. Just stop, PLEASE. One Liard is more than enough.

 

[Sporadic]

This HVS developer comparing NBA or WMCJ to Doom of all things is ridiculous. It's comparing apples and oranges.

 

Doom is a pseudo 3D engine performing many calculations, utilising the BSP tree to see what's visible, rendering multiple rooms if required. Loads of sprites potentially on screen and various AI routines to run. It's designed in such a way that it can be flexible and react to any of those things changing.

 

NBA Jam and WMCJ are basically fixed cameras just panning, zooming, a single scene with a touch of rotation. They have fixed quantities of sprites on screen and no real visual clipping to perform.

 

Of course they will run at different frame rates.

 

That developer sounds just like another chest beating numberwag ego driven developer. He may have written some decent code but he lost credibility for me boasting about his FPS compared to Doom. They are both totally different, there's no comparison.

[Swansea_Mariner]

2 hours ago, JagChris said:

I was referring to expert testimony in judging video games. Such as wmcj

Surely that's just another subjective view rather than expert testimony 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Swansea_Mariner

[Lost Dragon]

14 hours ago, JagChris said:

Their tools would have helped. You can't put id's dsp engine in with Adisak's. id's engine is severely outclassed. 

 

I seriously doubt it would have saved Atari but we would have probably gotten a few more things out faster and easier and in the end it may have lightened up the Jags reputation. Maybe some of those unreleased games. 

 

There was not enough units available to save Atari. They had manufacturing trouble it seems. Even if some miracle group of Games happened exclusively for the Jag that turned the gaming world in its ear Atari didn't seem to have a way to fill hardware demand.

I'm not putting the work the Doom team did with their own DSP engine  up against what HVS did with theirs. 

 

The point is numerous development teams wrote their own code, rather than use the libraries Atari provided, they weren’t sat there praying for the supposed gods to come down from the mount of HVS and save them, they found their own solutions to enable games to reach commercial deadlines, be finished, released. 

 

They got paid and they got out of the non-profitable Jaguar development sector and into Playstation and Saturn development. 

 

 

Can you please at least specify some actual titles you think the tools HVS had might of helped 

 

The list of unreleased games (and i refer to honest to god started titles, not magazines A to Z speculated, so must be true, nonsense titles) is mighty long. 

 

 

If we are talking more dire titles that did find their way to CD32 or 3DO, they were better off not appearing on Jaguar. 

 

The tools did little to save Dactyl Joust itself, did they?.

 

Manufacturing issues were only an issue for Atari at the very start of the Jaguar life cycle. 

 

Post launch, when people saw what Atari's idea of 64-bit gaming was and it became clear all those developers they'd crowed about signing up was a farce (likes of Team 17 being annouced before they even had development kits, Core, Microprose etc treating Jaguar as a shovelware platform) demand for the console dropped off. 

 

Atari blew the honeymoon period big time and that's a feeling shared by the very commercial teams who wrote games for it. 

[Lost Dragon]

10 hours ago, JagChris said:

All we have is the expert testimony of one Adisak Pochanayon. In lieu of source codes this is what I'm basing my speculation on. He's testified at a 30X efficiency increase. Allowing the dsp to multitask. And since NBA jam has no problem doing sound during gameplay I'm leaning towards their dsp engine.  

 

 

Sorry, we have THE Testimony of Adisak. 

 

Let's not start claiming any individual coder is an expert. 

 

Bad enough over the years with commercial teams like Scavenger, D. I. D, Argonaut, Shinny etc engaging in pissing contests over who's code was the most efficient, who's polygon 3D engines were the most cutting edge. 

 

Adisak is one voice among many. 

 

Nothing more.. nothing less. 

[Lost Dragon]

9 hours ago, JagChris said:

I am an expert and I love the graphics, bright florescent colors, the scaling etc and camera work in WMCJ. Also comparing subjective reviews is silly and isn't the area of expertise he's being cited for. 

 

And I do believe LD has spent many a paragraph deriding these same expert publications. 

 

@CJ, since the engjnes we're comparing, one wasn't able to do sound during gameplay until recently. 

 

My first home computer was the Sinclair ZX81 and i have been a gamer since. 

 

So I have 9 years up on you Chris and i am still nothing more than a mere GAMER. 

 

I put the Adisak quotes up as you didn't seem to have them at hand and as they highlighted in some cases how easy it was for a commercial developer to be so engaged in his project, he couldn't see the glaring issues reviewers were going to flag up, when game sent out for review. 

 

They were not intended to portray Adisak as the new Messiah of Jaguar coding. 

 

 

The Games Press have earnt the low standing they have within the community. 

 

UK Press especially. 

 

The (notorious) Rev Stuart Campbell was used by Future Publishing, had an open hatred for Defender 2000, yet Future had him review it for Edge and ST Format and he gave it a ridiculously absurd low score out of spite. 

 

Retrogamer Magazine used him to do a big feature on Kick Off, another game he made no secret of utterly loathing. 

 

Gamesmaster TV show, Gamesworld Magazine reviewed Beta copy of AVP

 

Edge gave it to a freelancer who went in expecting Doom II:AVP Mod. 

 

 

Games Reviewers in the magazines here found themselves moved onto Gaming publications after parent company closed the Fishing and Sports publications they had been writing on before hand. 

 

They aren't the credible bastions they liked to think they were. 

 

Edge.. The industry Bible.. An utter up it's own arse rag, that put false statements out about people supposedly working on Jaguar and Saturn titles, years later caught taking bribes from Rockstar for exclusive access and materials in return for high scores. 

 

 

I've also derided many a company boss or industry figure who used these publications to blatantly lie about what they had in development and how they gave fake imagery to the press and how idiots like myself ended up buying into the hype and buying hardware in day one, falsely believing the platforms had a very promising future. 

[Lost Dragon]

2 hours ago, Sporadic said:

This HVS developer comparing NBA or WMCJ to Doom of all things is ridiculous. It's comparing apples and oranges.

 

Doom is a pseudo 3D engine performing many calculations, utilising the BSP tree to see what's visible, rendering multiple rooms if required. Loads of sprites potentially on screen and various AI routines to run. It's designed in such a way that it can be flexible and react to any of those things changing.

 

NBA Jam and WMCJ are basically fixed cameras just panning, zooming, a single scene with a touch of rotation. They have fixed quantities of sprites on screen and no real visual clipping to perform.

 

Of course they will run at different frame rates.

 

That developer sounds just like another chest beating numberwag ego driven developer. He may have written some decent code but he lost credibility for me boasting about his FPS compared to Doom. They are both totally different, there's no comparison.

That's how he ended up coming across to me. 

 

Yet another chestbeater in an industry full of them. 

 

 

Years ago i thought quite highly of Jez San (Argonaut), i had loved Starglider I and II on the ST, the SFX chip impressed me from point of view of what the UK was doing on the global stage.. 

 

Yet the more interviews i read with him, the lower my opinions got. 

 

His sheer arrogance over how people would be banging down the door to use his SFX chip on SNES titles.. 

 

His attempts to rewrite history by saying Argonaut never did any Jaguar projects, they were smart enough to know when not to take risks.. now the Atari documents show Atari rejected Creature Shock on Jaguar as it was late and sub standard.. 

 

His pathetic attempt to blame Sega for the failure of Dreamcast Red Dog, it was shit Jez, you pulled it, reworked it, it was still shit. 

 

Own it. 

 

Him claiming he came up with the first 3D platform game before Nintendo with Mario 64..

 

Slagging the Mega Drive off in a Retrogamer interview, claiming the Mega CD was the answer to his SFX chip, no.. that was the Sega SVP chip. 

 

Comes a point when coders like Adisak dig themselves into some very deep holes. 

 

The.. I wrote a Doom Algorithm quote, killed it for me. 

 

No evidence of said engine. 

 

Nothing ever done with it. 

 

Yet wants to be seen as better coder than those who worked on Jaguar Doom? 

 

 

[Guest]

Nope!

[Lost Dragon]

Getting back on topic.. 

 

Wish i has kept what  Martin Linklater told me about his dynamic multistage clipping and meshing system" which he used  in Lifeforce Tenka's graphics engine in order to reduce the effect of warping textures.

 

And the quotes from V-Rally? might of been another racing game title on Playstation there were so many.. coder about how he wrote to the metal on Playstation rather than use Sony libraries. 

 

Their solutions to issues on a platform with hardware specifically geared towards pushing Texture-Mapped 3D might of opened up further discussion. 

[Guest]

Also your question doesn't really make sense. The geometry, shapes you make (usually triangles) and the hardware used to make them are

separate things, but no, Jag was low powered to this degree. The Jag's main problem was, it had no stellar games to sell the machine, and most of us have paid good money for a console or computer on the basis of one stellar game.

 

 

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

Nope!

John Mathieson (Jag designer) said yes!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

John Mathieson (Jag designer) said yes!

Ah well... They also said it was true 64 bit! ?

[Guest]

I wonder if he designed all the bugs...

 

I really like Martin Brennan, not only is he an Englishman, he also designed a lovely Jukebox which I own the Brennan 2. 

 

To be fair to both of them,
I would love to see what a bug-free, not chopped down by the money people, as originally designed Jag would be like.

I'd love to see the Konix MS as well for that matter.

[+cubanismo]

2 hours ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

I wonder if he designed all the bugs...

Every chip ever designed has had bugs, and I doubt the pre-silicon verification tools were as robust back then as they are now.  The real question when it comes to bugs is whether management gives you the time to fix them or not.  We all know how that went in this case.

 

Not to pile on the "bad leadership" bandwagon either.  Spinning a chip is incredibly expensive and takes forever.  A trade-off was made, and it's not that interesting to try to point fingers here or there 25+ years later IMHO.