Does Jaguar have 3d geometry ? 3D Graphic GPU?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

You seem to struggle to let go your prejudgements, based on guesswork.

That's not correct. Far from it. A wise man knows to question everything and not just take one persons opinion as fact.

 

If you really believe that the design team intended to produce what is a very flawed system, then that is up to you.

 

Opinions are opinions and you are entitled to yours as much as I mine, even if I disagree, I won't drop to your level.

 

You have castigated people for going all guns at each other, and on the other you are throwing slights left right centre at me. 

 

The high ground is not there for people to get a better aim when throwing diatribes.

Quote

Waste of time. Bye.

I don't know you from Adam, and as such this means nothing.

 

So you are staying now are you? Good stuff.

 

I jump because I have no need to have petty granular level arguments, you stay and continue to stir the pot.

 

Besides which, our conversation has veered very much off topic. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Guest
Final Remarks

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

That's not correct. Far from it. A wise man knows to question everything and not just take one persons opinion as fact.

 

If you really believe that the design team intended to produce what is a very flawed system, then that is up to you.

 

Opinions are opinions and you are entitled to yours as much as I mine, even if I disagree, I won't drop to your level.

 

You have castigated people for going all guns at each other, and on the other you are throwing slights left right centre at me. 

 

The high ground is not there for people to get a better aim when throwing diatribes.

I don't know you from Adam, and as such this means nothing.

 

So you are staying now are you? Good stuff.

 

I jump because I have no need to have petty granular level arguments, you stay and continue to stir the pot.

 

Besides which, our conversation has veered very much off topic. 

Go back to "Mr Kizzas shitshow" and continue your fingerpointing there. 

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

WOW! What a read. Great discussion guys.

[JagChris]

On 7/2/2020 at 7:53 PM, CyranoJ said:

1. There is screen tearing in Native.  You conveniently stopped responding in that thread after you were proven incorrect.

I didn't say anything out of respect for Duranik.

Here's some of your greatest hits regarding Native. 

 CyranoJ said:

Quote

'Given the demo rips and tears the screen already there is no way that level of detail could be maintained with audio as well.

Make Native not rip the screen up by overabusing the bus and THEN add music..

Everyone calls out Native.. however... as I've said many times, that one level uses nearly all the RAM.... there isn't any sound and the display is ALREADY overloaded and tears badly in places. It is a fantastic demo, making it a game with that quality however...

It might not slow down,  but Native literally rips the screen apart...

More ROM won't increase bandwidth to the object processor and dsp no matter how many times pixie dust is thrown...

Unobtainable. Impossibru! CJ keeping expectations low.. 

I never said there wasn't tearing but nobody could see it and you obviously full of BULLSHIT about it's severity. And you still won't point out where it's LITERALLY RIPPING THE SCREEN APART.

More expert testimony from CJ:

Quote

Native is and always will be that unobtainable dream that people talk about because the demo is a massive tease at what a final product could never be due to ram, bus, etc issues.'

Impossibru! The Reboot battle cry. They go there early and often. 

Testimony from a real developer, with special pixie dust:

Quote

't has nothing to do with the Jaguar main bus, the Object processor has simply too much to do and can't finish his line.

This was around 1996 when we were all flashed by the fancy Playstation transparency effects.We played around many many hours trying to get this RMW thing rendering but couldn't get it to
work because there was only very limited information available.

There is certainly A LOT that could be done in this demo to improve performance, first thing that comes to mind is splitting the Object Lists in some horizontal strips to avoid parsing all objects all of the time etc.'

So it can be fixed. And sounds like made even better. So all of those who attacked @agradeneu in this thread:

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/280831-what-was-the-jaguar-truly-capable-of/?do=findComment&comment=4151557

and accused him of losing credibility 'hand over fist' are the ones who did just that by attacking another person in a disagreement in a discussion on a forum. Especially when Agradeneu was correct

 

 And even with all the info, dev hardware and understanding available 25 years later CJ, you still can't even do what Duranik did with very little information and basically BJL. all those years ago. Thats probably why you have to make up stories about the screen literally 'ripping apart'  because you're reminded of that fact every time someone admires Duraniks achievement. 

Now I'm going to put this thread on ignore along with all Reboot members and their orbiters. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by JagChris

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

55 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I didn't say anything out of respect for Duranik.

Here's some of your greatest hits regarding Native. 

 CyranoJ said:

Unobtainable. Impossibru! CJ keeping expectations low.. 

I never said there wasn't tearing but nobody could see it and you obviously full of BULLSHIT about it's severity. And you still won't point out where it's LITERALLY RIPPING THE SCREEN APART.

More expert testimony from CJ:

Impossibru! The Reboot battle cry. They go there early and often. 

Testimony from a real developer, with special pixie dust:

So it can be fixed. And sounds like made even better. So all of those who attacked @agradeneu in this thread:

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/280831-what-was-the-jaguar-truly-capable-of/?do=findComment&comment=4151557

and accused him of losing credibility 'hand over fist' are the ones who did just that by attacking another person in a disagreement in a discussion on a forum. Especially when Agradeneu was correct

 

 And even with all the info, dev hardware and understanding available 25 years later CJ, you still can't even do what Duranik did with very little information and basically BJL. all those years ago. Thats probably why you have to make up stories about the screen literally 'ripping apart'  because you're reminded of that fact every time someone admires Duraniks achievement. 

Now I'm going to put this thread on ignore along with all Reboot members and their orbiters. 

Why did you hahaha at the Zeroplayer mention earlier???? Zeroplayer is actually boss as fuck. I don't particularly care for U235 but the Zeroplayer is top notch. If it had MOD support it would be the #1 go to sound player for all homebrew devs on the Jag. Appologize to the Zeroplayer...

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

And even with all the info, dev hardware and understanding available 25 years later CJ, you still can't even do what Duranik did with very little information and basically BJL. all those years ago.

More expert testimony from an expert game player who has never written a single line of code.  I love it when non coders chastise people who actually write code and sell commercial products.  Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

[+Sauron]

5 hours ago, JagChris said:

 And even with all the info, dev hardware and understanding available 25 years later CJ, you still can't even do what Duranik did with very little information and basically BJL. all those years ago. Thats probably why you have to make up stories about the screen literally 'ripping apart'  because you're reminded of that fact every time someone admires Duraniks achievement. 

Now I'm going to put this thread on ignore along with all Reboot members and their orbiters. 

Do you even read what you type? No, of course not. You're just another example of an idiot Jag fan with unrealistic expectations of what the console can do who has to rip on a developer who has actually accomplished a lot with a console and provided quite a few games and tools FOR FREE. All because they correct you when you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Go ahead and put everyone on ignore, you can continue to live alone in that fantasy bubble of yours.

 

4 hours ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

Why did you hahaha at the Zeroplayer mention earlier???? Zeroplayer is actually boss as fuck. I don't particularly care for U235 but the Zeroplayer is top notch. If it had MOD support it would be the #1 go to sound player for all homebrew devs on the Jag. Appologize to the Zeroplayer...

Because he has no fucking idea what he's talking about, considering he's never written a single line of code for the Jag and has no idea how the system actually works.

 

 

[LinkoVitch]

12 hours ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

Why did you hahaha at the Zeroplayer mention earlier???? Zeroplayer is actually boss as fuck. I don't particularly care for U235 but the Zeroplayer is top notch. If it had MOD support it would be the #1 go to sound player for all homebrew devs on the Jag. Appologize to the Zeroplayer...

Morbid curiosity, but what is wrong with U-235 SE ? If no one tells me of an issue I cannot fix it.  So given U-235 SE does have a mod player, pad reading & random number generator, what is it missing that makes it not of interest to you?

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

On 7/5/2020 at 5:52 AM, LinkoVitch said:

Morbid curiosity, but what is wrong with U-235 SE ? If no one tells me of an issue I cannot fix it.  So given U-235 SE does have a mod player, pad reading & random number generator, what is it missing that makes it not of interest to you?

I am not using U235 SE. I am using RB+ which has a much older version of U235 associated with it. I have not had the opportunity to work with the newest revison of your soundplayer. ggn did provide me a version of RB+ that incorporates the newest version of U235 however due to the most recent changes you made to it, it does not work 100% with RB+ as of this writing. Things that worked before are now broken and such. It does work but many many crashes now. I have been meaning to play with it and report the exact errors to ggn so he can properly incorporate it into the next RB+ package but I have been very slack in actually trying to do that.

So with that being said if I want to use MODS or the U235 player I am currently stuck with the older version.

I wasn't knocking on the player at all, I was simply stating that I prefer the Zeroplayer as it is very generous on overall bus and you are able to play back high quality sounds with ease. To me it's just an easier player to work with. I have never once had an issue with it, it always does exactly what I want it to do. Sometimes what I want it to do doesn't necessarily sound all that great but I never find myself fighting with Zeroplayer. It's pretty cut and dry. Another thing I like about it is with yours in order to do certain controller functions I have to set up an input delay. From what I have found using Zeroplayer I don't think that's necessary. Maybe it is and Zerosquare has it automatically doing that somehow but I don't think so. I also like the fact that omf was able to get rotary functions working using the Zeroplayer. I have been playing with this too, but I'm not quite there yet.

So U235 (older version not SE) you have the ability to play MOD files and rotary support right out of the box but I find the playback can be finicky at times and from what I can tell if you aren't using signed audio files you aren't going to get a desirable sound.

With Zeroplayer it takes pretty much anything I throw at it sounds great and is more user friendly. The downside is no MOD support and if you want rotary you have to do some extra steps.

 

So really for me it's just a personal preference at the moment.

 

But neither player are by any means laughable and certainly don't warrant a "hahaha" remark by anyone, which was the point I was trying to drive home.

[LinkoVitch]

For the record you ARE using SE as SE = Sound Engine   It's not Second Edition or anything. 

 

As for changes in the latest version there is only one breaking change, it is quite major in terms of audio in that it won't work if you don't do it, but that's it.  Other changes are actually reduction in bus usage and improved playback accuracy, and the ability to disable some features. 

 

I don't understand what you mean about requiring a delay to read the pads, all U235 SE does is process the pads internally and present the values there whenever you need them, you only need to read them when you want to, the whole engine is a passive system that you cannot really directly interact with.  Not sure of any controller functions that would require a delay, can you give an example?

 

In terms of signed/unsigned samples, it only supports signed samples because that is what is needed for MOD standards, there is no difference in quality between signed/unsigned samples, just the format the data is written in, it's pretty trivial to convert between the two formats, one day I will add unsigned support, but I have a long list of features to add and no time to add any of them.  Internally the engine and the mod player are separate, the golden plan has always been to make it modular so you could swap out the mod player for another (OctaMed etc), again no time or that would be in. 

 

I'd seriously look to using 0.24 in terms of audio and performance it's a much nicer engine.  If there were some nice API to adding commands to RB+ I'd probably look to implementing the necessary wrapper myself, I simply don't have time to hack away at RB+

 

Thanks for the feedback, if you find bugs/issues or have features let me know and they can end up "on the list"

 

 

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

5 minutes ago, LinkoVitch said:

For the record you ARE using SE as SE = Sound Engine   It's not Second Edition

As for changes in the latest version there is only one breaking change, it is quite major in terms of audio in that it won't work if you don't do it, but that's it.  Other changes are actually reduction in bus usage and improved playback accuracy, and the ability to disable some features. 

 

I don't understand what you mean about requiring a delay to read the pads, all U235 SE does is process the pads internally and present the values there whenever you need them, you only need to read them when you want to, the whole engine is a passive system that you cannot really directly interact with.  Not sure of any controller functions that would require a delay, can you give an example?

 

 

For some reason I WAS thinking SE was for second edition and not SOUND ENGINE. I thought you were referring to your latest version. Silly mistake on my part sorry.

 

As for the input delay and controller functions example in order for both players to press keys simultaneously on jagpad 1 and 2 there needs to be a delay set up using U235. I could be WRONG but I don't recall having to do this with Zeroplayer. It seems to just work. I am going purely off memory here but I am certain I did NOT set up a delay on ZP and it worked and in order to do the same thing with U235 I had to set up a delay. I assumed this was due to the higher BUS usage on the U235 players end. BUT it is all speculation on my part admittedly.

 

So if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

 

An added note the file size for unsigned audio files can be much smaller than signed which is why I would want to use some signed and some unsigned.

[LinkoVitch]

13 minutes ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

As for the input delay and controller functions example in order for both players to press keys simultaneously on jagpad 1 and 2 there needs to be a delay set up using U235. I could be WRONG but I don't recall having to do this with Zeroplayer. It seems to just work. I am going purely off memory here but I am certain I did NOT set up a delay on ZP and it worked and in order to do the same thing with U235 I had to set up a delay. I assumed this was due to the higher BUS usage on the U235 players end. BUT it is all speculation on my part admittedly.

There is no way to setup any delay on pad reading in my Sound Engine.. it reads both pads as fast as it can and presents the states of the pads.  I just checked the code and it actually reads BOTH pads data at the same time as their data is mixed together.
 

13 minutes ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

An added note the file size for unsigned audio files can be much smaller than signed which is why I would want to use some signed and some unsigned.

No it's not, they are size identical, one is using 8bit signed integers, the other is using 8 bit unsigned integers.  The sample resolution is 8 bits in both formats per sample, hence they are identically sized and easy to convert between (literally add 127 to each byte if memory serves - for signed to unsigned).

Edited July 6, 2020 by LinkoVitch
clarity

[swapd0]

I'm using U235-SE 0.24 and works flawlessly.

[LinkoVitch]

2 minutes ago, swapd0 said:

I'm using U235-SE 0.24 and works flawlessly.

Glad it's working for you thanks for saying.

[Peter Cernuska]

On 6/17/2020 at 10:43 PM, twoquickcapri said:

All consoles back then boasted their polygons/sec not polygon at a frame rate. If this was converted to polygons/sec it would equal 2.23 billion polygons/sec. Way more then the 360,000 polygons/sec of the PS1 and more than the PS2 and PS3.

I think he messed up his calculations and he really meant the Jag can produce 11.2M polygons in 199 seconds so it would make roughly 56.000 polygons/sec what is the real Jag power and the Jag games and game devs support that figure.

[Zerosquare]

Just FYI, there has been no formal scientific proof that every post in this thread is entirely factual and/or serious.

[+Stephen]

9 hours ago, Peter Cernuska said:

I think he messed up his calculations and he really meant the Jag can produce 11.2M polygons in 199 seconds so it would make roughly 56.000 polygons/sec what is the real Jag power and the Jag games and game devs support that figure.

Well, the Jaguar could do 850,000 pixels per second (they never said at 1 bpp).  So it would be a wicked monochrome single-pixel polygon pusher

[Peter Cernuska]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:30 PM, Stephen said:

Well, the Jaguar could do 850,000 pixels per second (they never said at 1 bpp).  So it would be a wicked monochrome single-pixel polygon pusher

Thousand times more wicked ? cause it can push even 850M pps but never knew just at 1 bpp. Good marketing trick but didn't save the Jag from his fate ?.

 

Regarding the polys that 56k pps figure is rather theoretical or could be achieved these days by squeezing the power out of Jag by dedicated person/team and I would wish if somebody would make at least simple playable game demo and show us how many polys can Jag push on screen buttery smooth and reveal its true potential but back in the days it could do at most 10-20k pps if at all I guess if you look at those horrible boxy/edgy mess produced back then. 

 

But I have read recently that if games would be highly optimized and some hw constraints/bugs would be removed then it could outperform even the PSX.

[Wilco]

The jag may be able to match the ps1 in some aspects, colours and that sort of stuff, but there is no way it would ever out perform one. If you want to see what the jag was capable off, take a look at Rayman, Iron soldier 2 or Battlemorph, it’s not going to get much more graphically advanced than those games. 
 

As for the reason why, I’d recommend using the search bar, there are some great, in depth answers to be found. 

[alucardx01]

9 hours ago, Wilco said:

The jag may be able to match the ps1 in some aspects, colours and that sort of stuff, but there is no way it would ever out perform one. If you want to see what the jag was capable off, take a look at Rayman, Iron soldier 2 or Battlemorph, it’s not going to get much more graphically advanced than those games. 
 

As for the reason why, I’d recommend using the search bar, there are some great, in depth answers to be found. 

Those games to seem to be pretty solid examples of what was possible and they don't suffer from horrible frame rate either. I do remember Hoverstrike: Unconquered Lands leaving quite an impression on me. I thought the graphics looked pretty good and the frame rate was bearable, especially considering the way 3d was back then. More recently bought and played Skyhammer. This game really did exceed my expectations in some ways as well as meet it in others. Graphically I never thought I'd see this level of texture mapping on the Jag. After seeing it though, I was not at all surprised to see the frame rate dip so much. I understood that this game was pushing the system to places it really wasn't designed to go and I accepted the frame drops.

 

I wonder how much room Skyhammer has for optimizations to improve the frame rate?

[swapd0]

21 hours ago, Peter Cernuska said:

But I have read recently that if games would be highly optimized and some hw constraints/bugs would be removed then it could outperform even the PSX.

No way. Do the math, jaguar has about 104MB/s (8bytes (64bits) * 13Mhz) of bandwidth that must be shared between five processor, well... if you could do a memory access on each bus cycle (you can't), I'm not sure about the bandwidth of the GPU of the PSX (maybe 66MB/s 2bytes(16bits) * 33MHz), also add the 133MB/s (4bytes(32bits) * 33MHz) for the CPU, and the sound chip has his own memory, and you don't need to share any them.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by swapd0

[sd32]

21 hours ago, Peter Cernuska said:

But I have read recently that if games would be highly optimized and some hw constraints/bugs would be removed then it could outperform even the PSX.

Could you mention where you read that? I could use a good laugh ?.... sound like something Gorf would say back on his day

[alucardx01]

1 minute ago, sd32 said:

Could you mention where you read that? I could use a good laugh ?.... sound like something Gorf would say back on his day

I'm not sure I ever heard him say that. I remember there being more modifications to the statement. Something about changing the 68000 out for a 68030 as well as avoiding these hardware bugs. It seems like there were other modifications but I don't recall exactly what, though I don't remember it being extreme. Feel free to find a direct Gorf quote though.

[sd32]

2 hours ago, alucardx01 said:

I'm not sure I ever heard him say that. I remember there being more modifications to the statement. Something about changing the 68000 out for a 68030 as well as avoiding these hardware bugs. It seems like there were other modifications but I don't recall exactly what, though I don't remember it being extreme. Feel free to find a direct Gorf quote though.

Stuff like that, and this:

To be fair, he was talking mostly about 2d, colors on screen and processing speed

 

On this one he says that a Jaguar with a SH2 or MIPS3000 cpu instead of the Motorola, would crush the Saturn and Playstation:

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by sd32

[+Stephen]

The Jaguar may not compete with the PSX on any terms, but it sure as hell produces more brain damage inducing toxic fumes than any console (or dumpster fire, or chemical spill) that I have ever encountered.  I'm so glad we have a pretty solidly recorded 28 year history of the insanity.  I know I've enjoyed every year of it!