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Does Jaguar have 3d geometry ? 3D Graphic GPU?

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8 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

The point is numerous development teams wrote their own code, rather than use the libraries Atari provided, they weren’t sat there praying for the supposed gods to come down from the mount of HVS and save them, they found their own solutions to enable games to reach commercial deadlines, be finished, released. 

 

They got paid and they got out of the non-profitable Jaguar development sector and into Playstation and Saturn development. 

 

I can't speak for whatever High Voltage had planned for the Jaguar after the four games they released. Maybe the tools and code they were writing could have been very impressive. The world may never know.

 

What we do know is that by early 1996, almost every Jaguar game developer was moving on to PlayStation and Saturn (and soon Nintendo 64). There's a chance that some of them might've stayed on with the Jaguar longer, if Atari would funded development of their games. But, after Ted Hoff left the building, and Jack Tramiel stepped back into the picture, it was clear that Atari themselves wanted "out".

 

8 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

 

Atari blew the honeymoon period big time and that's a feeling shared by the very commercial teams who wrote games for it. 

 

That sums it up well. Atari's numerous blunders (from both technical and business perspectives) during the Jaguar's first year set the tone, and put them on a nearly irreversible downward trajectory.

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12 hours ago, Sauron said:

JagChris, you pick the wrong hills to die on. That must be a special gift, as I have rarely seen anyone do that quite so often as you.

 

You're getting dangerously close to Liard territory here. Just stop, PLEASE. One Liard is more than enough.

 

Tongue in cheek reference to judging whether a game's play mechanics makes a it fun or not. But yeah look at that toxicity.

 

@Swansea_Mariner surely not any more a subjective review on the subject than anyone else here. Or in any of the publications of the day.

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24 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Every chip ever designed has had bugs, and I doubt the pre-silicon verification tools were as robust back then as they are now.  The real question when it comes to bugs is whether management gives you the time to fix them or not.  We all know how that went in this case.

Fair comment.

Quote

Not to pile on the "bad leadership" bandwagon either.  Spinning a chip is incredibly expensive and takes forever.

True.

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 A trade-off was made, and it's not that interesting to try to point fingers here or there 25+ years later IMHO.

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment fella! Don't get riled. People get offended by everything now. I fully understand how that plays out, and you seem to have not bothered to read my second part of the same comment and chose to be all spiky instead!

2 hours ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

To be fair to both of them,
I would love to see what a bug-free, not chopped down by the money people, as originally designed Jag would be like.

I can't have been more fair. 😾

 

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18 hours ago, JagChris said:

@CJ, since the engines we're comparing, one wasn't able to do sound during gameplay until recently. 

Is this a serious comment? What kind of engine can't do sound.

 

F**k me! 

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23 minutes ago, Agent X said:

That sums it up well. Atari's numerous blunders (from both technical and business perspectives) during the Jaguar's first year set the tone, and put them on a nearly irreversible downward trajectory.

I think the import of decent development systems, put out to plenty of the right devs, along with quality documentation can not be under-estimated. What is it with Atari not wanting people to know how the machines worked? They were doing that kind of thing back in the 8bit era.

---

I know Playstation was a bugger to get anything going on, but Sony, they provided some wonderful documentation. You could choke a donkey on it, but it was there.

 

It is MHO that if you want to be successful in launching a new console the first thing you do, is, everything you can to make it as smooth a ride for the developers as possible. 

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49 minutes ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

Don't get riled.

Not at all, no offense taken. I was pretty sure it was tongue in cheek.  There are a lot of comments all around about how buggy Jaguar's RISC chips were.  Most of it tongue in cheek, some of it serious criticism.  Seemed like a good opportunity to address that in general is all.  Some people surely already knew the stuff I said, some may not have.

 

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1 hour ago, JagChris said:

Tongue in cheek reference to judging whether a game's play mechanics makes a it fun or not. But yeah look at that toxicity.

 

It's only "tongue in cheek" because you're being called out on it. And no, again, there is nothing toxic about pointing out your factual errors. The only toxicity is in you trying to pretend that you know what you're talking about.

 

 

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3 hours ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

I wonder if he designed all the bugs...

 

I really like Martin Brennan, not only is he an Englishman, he also designed a lovely Jukebox which I own the Brennan 2

 

To be fair to both of them,
I would love to see what a bug-free, not chopped down by the money people, as originally designed Jag would be like.

I'd love to see the Konix MS as well for that matter.

In an interview he basically said that the Jaguar did (perform) what they intended. The system was not "chopped down" by the bugs, that is a myth. The bugs made it harder to program. It was not designed for fast texture mapping, that's it. The design was later improved with Jaguar 2.

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IMHO they never tried to code a real game while the hardware was in development, because you'll find a lot of bottlenecks and fixing them could improve a lot the machine.

 

You can't make an After Burner (sprite + scaling + rotation) without a lot of headaches, and it's a game from 1987...

 

 

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40 minutes ago, swapd0 said:

IMHO they never tried to code a real game while the hardware was in development, because you'll find a lot of bottlenecks and fixing them could improve a lot the machine.

 

You can't make an After Burner (sprite + scaling + rotation) without a lot of headaches, and it's a game from 1987...

 

 

Didn't ATD develope Cybermorph closely with the hardware guys?

 

Doing Afterburner with 1987 era hardware caused a LOT more headaches ;-) 

Also look at Super Burn Out for super fast scaling effects, Zero5 for rotation.

 

 

Master System does it rather well:

 

 

Edited by agradeneu

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3 hours ago, Sauron said:

It's only "tongue in cheek" because you're being called out on it. And no, again, there is nothing toxic about pointing out your factual errors. The only toxicity is in you trying to pretend that you know what you're talking about.

 

 

You're full if shit. You called me a liar because I said I was qualifed to tell whether ba game is fun or not. I'm as qualified as anyone else. 

 

But you wanna call names. And all these clowns want to 'like' it. Over a disagreement? In a discussion? 

 

Okay we'll play that

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2 hours ago, JagChris said:

You're full if shit. You called me a liar because I said I was qualifed to tell whether ba game is fun or not. I'm as qualified as anyone else. 

 

But you wanna call names. And all these clowns want to 'like' it. Over a disagreement? In a discussion? 

 

Okay we'll play that

I said you were getting close to Liard territory. That's not calling you names, it's calling you out on your bullshit. And yes, it's bullshit to call yourself an "expert" on anything here. You're no more of an expert on games than anyone else in this forum. And the vast majority of those here don't agree with your opinion on a game's graphics. In fact, there's a rather large thread elsewhere on this forum about an individual who claimed to be an "expert", hence the comparison I made.

 

 

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Only you and your crew are the ones needing to be called out on your bullshit. But most people can see you and the crew for what they are. Bullshitters. The only thing that keeps you going is your own circular high fiving. 

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On 7/2/2020 at 3:05 AM, CyranoJ said:

 

Lets look at these:

1. The rules for RISC in main ram are now known, and can be implemented with macros. However GPU IN MAIN is not a silver bullet 

2. Once the rules are known, overlays become pointless (codepage swapping on the GPU ram kills performance by wasting cycles)

3. We have U235 and ZeroPlayer, both are highly efficient and flexible

4. Multiple compression options are now available using modern tools.

So, realistically, the only sticking point is a part of the second issue, in that we don't currently have a C to RISC compiler at all.  However... it seems people think they need that to 'get the most out of the system' ... but you'll never get that by coding in C in the first place.

It would seem the passage of time has made all these things irrelevant.

 

1-2. He was referring to an lru cache system not a brute force overlay set-up.

http://www.3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3492

 

Though GPU in main probably easier in short term. You already know this however you're not clear on what kind of overlay system you were referring to.

 

3. Hahaha hahaha 

 

4. Awesome

 

So, realistically the only sticking point is this is more BULLSHIT. We have the same risc compiler HVS had access to. 

 

 

 

 

 

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You are allowed outside for essential stuff... like medication.

 

I know you miss JS2 where you could post any ridiculous thing you want, but you will get fact checked here and called out on your complete gibberish.

 

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3 hours ago, JagChris said:

Only you and your crew are the ones needing to be called out on your bullshit. But most people can see you and the crew for what they are. Bullshitters. The only thing that keeps you going is your own circular high fiving. 

Please explain what "bullshit" myself or any of my "crew" here are stating. The only "bullshit" I see here is coming from you, in that you're pretending to know more about the Jaguar's actual hardware capabilities than you actually do. I'll be waiting patiently for a correct answer.

 

EDIT: And while you're at it, please explain why neither the Zerosquare nor U235 sound engines are flexible and highly efficient. I'm sure both Zerosquare and Linkovitch would appreciate you laughing at their efforts.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, agradeneu said:

In an interview he basically said that the Jaguar did (perform) what they intended. The system was not "chopped down" by the bugs, that is a myth. The bugs made it harder to program. It was not designed for fast texture mapping, that's it. The design was later improved with Jaguar 2.

But is that true?

 

Did the designers actually have proper access to the retail machine after it had been manufactured?

 

The prototype machine might have been 100% their design, and that might have been the point they stopped being part of it, I don't know, but as others have pointed out, the manufacturing and costing processes certainly change things. Components wise.

 

They did for Playstation, they did for XBox, they did for Megadrive and Snes, so why would compromises/hard choices not have been made here as well?

 

If you are telling me that you think what ended up as the machine we all know now was 100% their original design spec, I would doubt that. Brennan for example is an awesome designer, I love my B2.

 

 That isn't the point I was making. The 'Chopped Down' comment was about how the transition from design to actual hardware can radically alter the design. The bugs are a side effect of a crunching deadline and not enough time to test.

They rushed everything toward the end and the machine suffered as a consequence. 

 

Whoever designed the controller 😒

_____

Throwing Kizza's name about is a low blow. You are equating that guy with this guy and even if your opinions differ radically, Kizza is the ultimate tool.

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1 minute ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

 

But is that true?

 

Did the designers actually have proper access to the retail machine after it had been manufactured?

 

The prototype machine might have been 100% their design, and that might have been the point they stopped being part of it, I don't know, but as others have pointed out, the manufacturing and costing processes certainly change things. Components wise.

 

They did for Playstation, they did for XBox, they did for Megadrive and Snes, so why would compromises/hard choices not have been made here as well?

 

If you are telling me that you think what ended up as the machine we all know now was 100% their original design spec, I would doubt that. Brennan for example is an awesome designer, I love my B2.

 

 That isn't the point I was making. The 'Chopped Down' comment was about how the transition from design to actual hardware can radically alter the design. The bugs are a side effect of a crunching deadline and not enough time to test.

They rushed everything toward the end and the machine suffered as a consequence. 

 

Whoever designed the controller 😒

_____

Throwing Kizza's name about is a low blow. You are equating that guy with this guy and even if your opinions differ radically, Kizza is the ultimate tool.

 

John Mathieson was working for Atari till they closed down their business in 1996. He was head of the Jaguar hardware development for the time, but he was not involved in the CD or VR. 

He later worked for nvidia and developed the TEGRA chip. I guess he has absoletely no reason to tell anyone BS. 

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I'm going to jump this thread as well I think.

I am not the most knowledgeable about Jag. I do know the machine but I don't claim to know it down to the liquid so I am going to jump before I start getting blades coming my way as well.

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Just now, agradeneu said:

John Mathieson was working for Atari till they closed down their business in 1996. He was head of the Jaguar hardware development for the time. 

I'm not saying it is bullshit, this is the problem, don't read things in that I have not said. If he thought his assertion was right, even if it were incorrect, it would not be bollocks, it would be his perception of the truth.

 

If he stated that it was 100% their original design, which I doubt, then he is found wanting in his role. He and his team would be culpable but I personally suspect the manufacturing process knocked some of the sparks/magic out of the machine.

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17 minutes ago, ∞ Vince ∞ said:

I'm not saying it is bullshit, this is the problem, don't read things in that I have not said. If he thought his assertion was right, even if it were incorrect, it would not be bollocks, it would be his perception of the truth.

 

If he stated that it was 100% their original design, which I doubt, then he is found wanting in his role. He and his team would be culpable but I personally suspect the manufacturing process knocked some of the sparks/magic out of the machine.

You seem to struggle to let go your prejudgements, based on guesswork. Waste of time. Bye.

Edited by agradeneu

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On 7/2/2020 at 7:53 PM, CyranoJ said:

 

1. There is screen tearing in Native.  You conveniently stopped responding in that thread after you were proven incorrect.

2. The HVS issue you mentioned.

3. Now, here

 

 

 

The HVS issue I freely admitted the mistake in my assumption on when their techniques matured as I said before. I also suggested looking towards the HVS maze demo and Ruiner Pinball where Corley specifically says the 68k does nothing in the main loop. 

 

But instead you keep hiding behind the mistake I made, because you're full of BULLSHIT.

 

As for the Native issue I'll cover that next.

Edited by JagChris
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26 minutes ago, JagChris said:

 

The HVS issue I freely admitted the mistake in my assumption on when their techniques matured as I said before. I also suggested looking towards the HVS maze demo and Ruiner Pinball where Corley specifically says the 68k does nothing in the main loop. 

 

But instead you keep hiding behind the mistake I made, because you're full of BULLSHIT.

 

As for the Native issue I'll cover that next.

Jagchris is clearly irrational and appears to have agendas and/or misguided beliefs of his own that he wishes to present as 'alternate facts'

 

The world doesn't work like that.

 

I'm leaving this thread now.  I have better things to do than argue.

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23 minutes ago, JagChris said:

But instead you keep hiding behind the mistake I made, because you're full of BULLSHIT.

inigo.jpg.52dba5caa2fc4f7ccccadb8b1672a969.jpg

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