File Transfer

[bfollowell]

5 hours ago, cdoty said:

 

I do also own an UltraSatan and a Gotek, but find the USB card the easiest solution for playing games on the ST. It's a bit rare for games to write to the disk. UltraSatan is nice, but requires more than the standard 1MB of RAM, to load games. And, having to configure the floppy slots, on a Gotek, does get a little tiresome. Being tethered to a PC can be a problem, but it does simplify the process of changing disks.

 

Yes, but still, not being able to write seems like a major drawback. A better option seems like Lotharek's SD S - HXC SLIM 34PIN for only about $10 more USD. Like I said, it's a lot like the SIO2USB or SIO2PC-USB for the 8-bits, and I have one of those that I still use sometimes. However, the main, big difference is that I can write back to disk images with it. To each their own though.

[TGB1718]

2 hours ago, bfollowell said:

A better option seems like Lotharek's SD S - HXC SLIM 34PIN

Had a look at this on Lotharek's web site, I couldn't see any pictures of one fitted to an ST, does

fitting one of these require modifying the ST case so you can see the display or access the buttons ?

 

[Randy]

OK, after extensive workings on the whole floppy drive/Gotek/storage solutions thing, I have had a number of learnings learned.  First, I have 5 original ST drives which were a bit flaky to non-functional, similar to what you have stated, and got all but one (which I haven't gotten back to yet), fully functional.  Clean, clean, clean and proper cap replacement and drive setup and I think you will get your drives working.  If not, contact gadgetUK194 on youtube, he has worked on these old drives and has 100% success, you can also watch his videos and learn from them, IT CAN BE DONE!  The Gotek solution is just not my cup of tea, have one and have used it, but the files are not like the files on an ST floppy or hard drive so that adds to confusion and problems when wanting to use it as a replacement drive, better to use a hard drive/CF drive instead which will run programs natively unlike a Gotek.  If you have floppys you want to run, need a floppy drive, period.  If you want to use the ST strictly as a gaming machine, Gotek is a great. but sometimes chancy, option.  Best option is a Ultrasatan HD replacement for the HD drive that runs all programs natively, those native files can be found online in original disk formats (PP site) or can be converted from a .MSA format to a runnable GEM-style format, from what I have been told...

[bfollowell]

1 hour ago, Randy said:

but the files are not like the files on an ST floppy or hard drive so that adds to confusion and problems when wanting to use it as a replacement drive

 

 

I'm really curious as to what you've tested that you can make this statement. I've used literally hundreds of ST disk images with my Gotek, and almost every single one of them works exactly as they would if they were on a real disk in a real disk drive. The ST all but clueless that a Gotek is connected to it. The machine can't tell the difference between a real disk drive and a Gotek in most instances, and I have found almost nothing that I couldn't do with a Gotek that I could do with a real disk drive.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but I think the sheer number of Atari/Gotek users that use their Goteks without issue says something isn't quite right with what you're saying.

 

[Randy]

21 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

I'm really curious as to what you've tested that you can make this statement. I've used literally hundreds of ST disk images with my Gotek, and almost every single one of them works exactly as they would if they were on a real disk in a real disk drive. The ST all but clueless that a Gotek is connected to it. The machine can't tell the difference between a real disk drive and a Gotek in most instances, and I have found almost nothing that I couldn't do with a Gotek that I could do with a real disk drive.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but I think the sheer number of Atari/Gotek users that use their Goteks without issue says something isn't quite right with what you're saying.

 

You misinterpreted my statement.  I said that the Gotek plays Atari files as .ST files, NOT as .PRG, .TOS, .TTP, .ACC, .INF, .NEO, etc, etc, NOT as native Atari ST files.  Therefore, you cannot, to my knowledge, make up various boot disks or use boot disk managers for making up various desktops and their associated accessory files and the like.  In effect you cannot, to my knowledge, use the Gotek to use an ST as an ST, at least without going through a bunch of hoops to create proper desktops with .ACCs, etc.  Works great with games in .ST format, and I am sure with other programs, like Calamus, Papyrus, and other productivity files that are in .ST format, and it may be the only or best way to get these files on the internet.  But if your goal is to run an ST as an ST with all that encumbers for good or bad, you really need something that can run Atari files in native format.  That would be either a floppy or hard drive, or a CF drive like an UltraSatan or the like that stores files in the original format.  Otherwise expect a learning curve in how to use .ST files in various combinations, how to load in .ACC files into a boot disk, or mouse accelerator files, or RAM disks, etc., for a particular desktop, no boot loaders like a DeskManager, etc.  And no, to my knowledge, ST magazine disks either for demos or full packages.  If I am incorrect, tell me where and how.

[bfollowell]

I don't believe you have a good understanding of how the Gotek works or what a disk image is. Let me explain.

 

First of all, a disk drive, or a disk emulator isn't like an audio cassette player. It doesn't "play" anything. It merely allows you to access the data stored on the disk drive. The computer knows what to do with that data. Now, let's looks at a real physical diskette. It is merely a wrapper. A storage media for the files stored on it. Likewise, a disk image, be it an ST file, and STX file, or any of the other disk image files, is merely a wrapper. A storage media for the files stored inside it. The files stored inside a Dungeon Master diskette are the same exact files store inside a Dungeon Master.st disk image. The only difference is that you need a real physical disk drive in your machine to access those files, whereas you need a Gotek installed in your machine to access those same files from a disk image. The Atari ST has no clue which device is installed, and it can't tell the difference between a real diskette in a drive and a disk image on a Gotek. It thinks they're both real disks in a disk drive and it accesses the files stored there in the exact same way. The only difference is that your no longer putting wear and tear on your disk drive or the diskettes when you use disk images on a Gotek. I think you're trying to compare the ST file to one of the file types you're familiar with from the ST, but that is an incorrect comparison. You need to compare the ST file to the diskette itself.

 

Now, that is only good for files that were intended to be ran from a disk. If you're trying to run something that was originally intended to be ran from an Atari hard drive, then you're correct. The Gotek was never intended to be a replacement for a hard drive, just like a disk drive wasn't. It just merely replaces the floppy drive. Once you have it installed though, you can do all of the things with it that you said that you can't. You can makeup as many boot disks as you like. You can copy as many files as you want over to blank disk images, just like you would to a blank diskette. As far as the Atari ST is concerned, a Gotek with a blank image installed on it is the exact same as a disk drive with a blank diskette in it.

 

I think you really need to read up more on Goteks and experiment with the one that you have. I think you're really missing the boat on what a Gotek is, what is does, and what all it is capable of. I'll be glad to help you out more with getting it setup and enjoying it if you'd like. Just PM me and I'll help you out as much as I can.

 

 

[ijor]

29 minutes ago, Randy said:

You misinterpreted my statement.  I said that the Gotek plays Atari files as .ST files, NOT as .PRG, .TOS, .TTP, .ACC, .INF, .NEO, etc, etc, NOT as native Atari ST files.

 

This is not accurate anymore. Later versions of HxC firmware for the Gotek does allow you to use actual files directly, without need to embedding them in a disk image.

[ijor]

14 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

Now, that is only good for files that were intended to be ran from a disk. If you're trying to run something that was originally intended to be ran from an Atari hard drive, then you're correct. The Gotek was never intended to be a replacement for a hard drive, just like a disk drive wasn't. It just merely replaces the floppy drive....

 

I think he meant that when you use a Gotek and then manage the Pen Drive on a PC, you don't see the files directly, you see disk images. So he probably finds a little annoying the need to deal with disk images.

 

But as I just replied, newer versions of the firmware can take a directory on the Pen Drive and convert them to a virtual disk on the fly. So actually you don't necessarily need disk images anymore, at least not for many cases.

[Randy]

Thanks guys, that, with the proper software installed in the Gotek, you can access any of the files stored on the Gotek at any time?  In other words, it's not just choosing to run, say Calamus, I could also access any number of Calamus files that I have been working on, that I can "see" those files on the desktop and pick from them using the item selector?  Maybe add different fonts or image files into a working Calamus project or open an old project and work on it?  The ability to access files randomly and at will without having to soft boot is essential to operating a computer unless all you want to do is play games, which is what I have been using my Gotek for.  The ability to copy and move files from location to location, update files, create and save files, objects, etc. is important.  I have not seen that capability in my Gotek, but I do know that the software that I flashed the Gotek with seems to be an outdated version of what is used to store files on the Gotek.  I do have the LCD screen, otherwise the Gotek is pretty much crap as far as choosing files from a soft boot, but if there is software that allows one to access any files at any time at random, just like a floppy or hard drive, then their is usefulness in a Gotek.  Does that make sense?

[bfollowell]

9 minutes ago, Randy said:

but if there is software that allows one to access any files at any time at random, just like a floppy or hard drive, then their is usefulness in a Gotek.

The Gotek is a floppy emulator. It will allow you to do anything with your ST that that you would have been able to to with it using a floppy drive. It has nothing to do with a hard drive. It doesn’t emulate a hard drive. You need an UltraSatan or some other device for that. All the Gotek does is replace the floppy drive; nothing else.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yes, Gotek is floppy emulator. And it works with floppy images, not files which you see when open A: or B: with Atari.

To be able to access some individual file user must to add it to floppy image file (there are diverse ways for that). Soft boot is not needed to change active image - you select it with Gotek's menu, on Atari need to refresh A or B window content - with Escape  key. Or running SW will see that emulated floppy is changed.

And to correct: can not do 100 % anything (everything) as with real floppy drive - many copy protections are not emulated with Gotek (or HxC) . So making image of some game original and running it with Gotek, HxC or whatever will not work in many cases (I guess some 50%) . And that will not change, most likely. And no real need for it - there are other ways.

[bfollowell]

4 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Yes, Gotek is floppy emulator. And it works with floppy images, not files which you see when open A: or B: with Atari.

To be able to access some individual file user must to add it to floppy image file (there are diverse ways for that). Soft boot is not needed to change active image - you select it with Gotek's menu, on Atari need to refresh A or B window content - with Escape  key. Or running SW will see that emulated floppy is changed.

And to correct: can not do 100 % anything (everything) as with real floppy drive - many copy protections are not emulated with Gotek (or HxC) . So making image of some game original and running it with Gotek, HxC or whatever will not work in many cases (I guess some 50%) . And that will not change, most likely. And no real need for it - there are other ways.

True, but many of the copy protected images have been made available as STX files and I’ve had a lot of luck converting those to HFE and getting them to run just fine from my Gotek. But, like you said, most of those copy protected disks are available in other ways, especially if you have a hard drive in your system.

 

[ijor]

5 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Yes, Gotek is floppy emulator. And it works with floppy images, not files which you see when open A: or B: with Atari.

To be able to access some individual file user must to add it to floppy image file (there are diverse ways for that).

 

As I said already, this is not necessarily anymore if you are using a Gotek with a recent HxC firmware version.

[ijor]

9 hours ago, Randy said:

Thanks guys, that, with the proper software installed in the Gotek, you can access any of the files stored on the Gotek at any time? 

 

Well, it depends. But seems you are more interested in a hard drive functionality. Then, as other recommended, it might make be much better to get a hard disk (emulator).

[ParanoidLittleMan]

38 minutes ago, ijor said:

 

Well, it depends. But seems you are more interested in a hard drive functionality. Then, as other recommended, it might make be much better to get a hard disk (emulator).

Hmmm ... While calling Gotek and other floppy replacements as emulators, better said HW emulators is correct by me, calling some modern replacement of hard disk, so Flash card based devices as emulator or HW emulator is not good idea.  Because Gotek communicates with FDC chip in Atari (or some other floppy controller in some other computer), so must generate proper signals used by floppy drives, with proper timing and speed (freq.)  - and that's emulation.  Some Flash card based adapter like UltraSatan just needs to work by protocol of that port - so in this case ACSI port (SASI) + ICD extended ACSI protocol. That is not emulation by me.  Not emulating exact way how classic hard disk work.

[TGB1718]

1 hour ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Hmmm ... While calling Gotek and other floppy replacements as emulators, better said HW emulators is correct by me

Have to agree with you, because these HW emulators communicate with the host by it's native port and comm's from

the host (ST) it's a real floppy, we have the same in the 8 bit world S-Drive MAX , SIO2USB Etc. all communicate over

the Serial Port

[Randy]

9 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Yes, Gotek is floppy emulator. And it works with floppy images, not files which you see when open A: or B: with Atari.

To be able to access some individual file user must to add it to floppy image file (there are diverse ways for that). Soft boot is not needed to change active image - you select it with Gotek's menu, on Atari need to refresh A or B window content - with Escape  key. Or running SW will see that emulated floppy is changed.

And to correct: can not do 100 % anything (everything) as with real floppy drive - many copy protections are not emulated with Gotek (or HxC) . So making image of some game original and running it with Gotek, HxC or whatever will not work in many cases (I guess some 50%) . And that will not change, most likely. And no real need for it - there are other ways.

It sounds like I have a crap version of the software as I don't functionality like that with my Gotek, what should I look for with regards to the Gotek software?  Thanks

[ParanoidLittleMan]

37 minutes ago, Randy said:

It sounds like I have a crap version of the software as I don't functionality like that with my Gotek, what should I look for with regards to the Gotek software?  Thanks

As Ijor said: "As I said already, this is not necessarily anymore if you are using a Gotek with a recent HxC firmware version. " - so you need latest Gotek firmware.

 

I used some 8-10 years ago USB version of HxC - so images were on PC, and was easy to add new files to them, or making new images and serve HxC/Atari via USB cable.  But I used it not for long. Somehow like more C than A ?

 

[bfollowell]

4 hours ago, Randy said:

It sounds like I have a crap version of the software as I don't functionality like that with my Gotek, what should I look for with regards to the Gotek software?  Thanks

You don't have to look any further than earlier in this thread.

 

I referred TGB1718 to a thread on Exxos' site that is full of excellent information on setting up and using a Gotek. Go here and check out the thread.

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=593

 

I really can't help you much more without knowing where you're starting from, like which flavor of firmware your Gotek is setup with, either HxC or FlashFloppy, and which version.

 

[TGB1718]

This finally arrived today https://centuriontech.eu/product/goex4st/

 

I fitted it to my 1040 ST, had to make a floppy extension cable, the one in the ST is so short

and because you have to twist it to get pin 1 on the correct side it doesn't quite reach.

 

I formatted a 1GB SD card (FAT32), copied a bunch of .ST images I had used with SteemSSE so I knew

they booted, inserted the card in the new drive, powered up, but nothing boots.

 

I bought the little OLED display which shows the disk images and by rotating and pressing the selector I can

select an image that boots fine on SteemSSE.

 

But after powerup, wait a minute and the desktop appears showing floppy A and B, but when I

try to open either drive it says there's an error open the device.

 

I've looked on the web site and there is nothing to indicate if there's anything that needs setting up,

in fact there's no information that I could see at all.

 

I looked at the link on this thread on setting up a GOTEK drive in case there were any clues, but

there are too many differences between these devices so not really helpful.

 

My question is, am I missing something, does this device need some sort of boot program on the SD card

or do I need to set any jumpers like the Gotek drives ? (there are no pin headers for jumpers but there are what look like pads to fit some)

 

Any help appreciated

[bfollowell]

You bought a Goex, so the Gotek links I posted for you aren't going to help at all. I have no experience whatsoever with a Goex. They're not nearly as popular in the ST world as the Goteks, but I'm sure a Goex user will see this and help you eventually. Until then, I'd contact whoever you bought the Goex from and maybe see if they have any support forums.

 

[Randy]

1 hour ago, bfollowell said:

You bought a Goex, so the Gotek links I posted for you aren't going to help at all. I have no experience whatsoever with a Goex. They're not nearly as popular in the ST world as the Goteks, but I'm sure a Goex user will see this and help you eventually. Until then, I'd contact whoever you bought the Goex from and maybe see if they have any support forums.

 

Sorry for the mis-type, its a Gotek

[Randy]

1 hour ago, bfollowell said:

You bought a Goex, so the Gotek links I posted for you aren't going to help at all. I have no experience whatsoever with a Goex. They're not nearly as popular in the ST world as the Goteks, but I'm sure a Goex user will see this and help you eventually. Until then, I'd contact whoever you bought the Goex from and maybe see if they have any support forums.

 

Oops, thought that was directed towards me, my bad!  BTW, the Goex does like a solid product, assuming it does work, like the form factor!

[ijor]

2 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

This finally arrived today https://centuriontech.eu/product/goex4st/

 

I fitted it to my 1040 ST, had to make a floppy extension cable, the one in the ST is so short

and because you have to twist it to get pin 1 on the correct side it doesn't quite reach.

 

Are you sure you have to twist the cable? You do must twist the cable with a "normal" Gotek because an ST drive has the connector reversed in relation to standard PC floppy drives, and Gotek obviously follows the standard pinout. But The Goex is specifically designed for the ST and it is supposed to fit seamlessly in an ST chassis. I would expect that the connector on the Goex is oriented like an ST drive, and not like a Gotek or a standard PC drive.

 

I recommend to check with the manufacturer. Note that if you connected the cable wrong, unfortunately you might have damaged some components on the Goex.

[TGB1718]

30 minutes ago, ijor said:

Are you sure you have to twist the cable?

Yes, you do have to twist, pin 1 is marked on the GOEX and on the ST, I think this drive was originally designed for an Amiga,

so it may well be reversed.

 

Also, when I boot the ST, I should have said before, the orange LED lights and eventually goes out when the screen appears,

I assume thats the st trying to access the floppy, then if I double click the A drive, the light comes back on until the error

message appears and then goes out.

 

Just a thought, are these things touchy about what SD card you are using, although it's showing the files on the OLED,

it may have issues accessing the actual images if it doesn't like the SD card, will have to see if I find onther one

hanging around.

 

Although none of my "real" floppy drives work, I had one that sometimes managed to read the directory, I put

this drive in place of the GOEX and I could read the directory of the floppy, but can't access the files,