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ZippyRedPlumber

More than 1 mode?

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I know this has been asked before but are there any 7800 games that utilized more than 1 graphics mode whether it being homebrew or officially released by Atari?

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The only official release that I can think of is Tower Toppler which uses 320A for the main game and 160A for the underwater sections between levels.

For homebrew I know Baby Pac-Man uses 320(A?) for the maze section and 160A for the pinball section.

Spire of the Ancients uses and mix of 320A, 320B, and 160A for the titlescreen, 320A for a few textscreens, and a mix of 320A and 160A for the main game screen.

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Posted (edited)

Yep - actually Baby Pac-Man uses 320B for the maze and 160A for the pinball section.

 

Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest uses 320A (Indicator Area), 160A (Background), 160B (Sprites).

Edited by PacManPlus
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If the main player sprites was in 320 mode, everything else being 160. What would the maximum amount of colors for the player be?

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Posted (edited)

The graphics modes work in pairs so that you can overlap 160A with 160B, 320A with 320C, or 320B with 320D .

You can have any of those modes on screen at once but it means changing the mode mid screen so you can't have a 160 mode with a 320 mode in the same vertical space.

 

With Spire of the Ancients' title screen the mountains are 320B, then it changes to 320A for the text, then it changes to 160A for the horse graphic, and that's only possible because they're separated vertically and it's changing the modes in specific places.

Edited by SmittyB
Corrected 320B/C to 320B/D
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1 hour ago, SmittyB said:

The graphics modes work in pairs so that you can overlap 160A with 160B, 320A with 320C, or 320B with 320C.

 

Interesting. I didn't know that the 320B and 320C modes could be used in the same area, I always thought that the 320B mode could only be combined with the 320D mode.

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3 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Interesting. I didn't know that the 320B and 320C modes could be used in the same area, I always thought that the 320B mode could only be combined with the 320D mode.

It can't, that was a typo that I've now corrected. That's for spotting that.

320A goes with 320C, 320B goes with 320D.

My apologies for the mistake.

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Thanks to @RevEng, I was able to run a special build of MAME which would provide the various attributes used for a particular title during the span of time in which the ROM ran.  In each of the below titles, the time spent was ~1 minute.  Typically going from the title screen to in-game playing.

 

It covers a few homebrews and the entire retail library.  This was done several years ago.

 

The attached file in *.csv format provides the list of ROM names tested and the various graphics modes. Each graphics mode utilized is broken down by percentage.  The below spoiler also contains the same data.

 

  a78info_EDIT.csv

 
ROM Name % 160A % 160B % 320A % 320B % 320C % 320D
Beef Drop (Final AtariAge).a78 3.93 65.12 30.94 0 0 0
Donkey Kong PK-XM [Final v1.3].a78 94.36 0.1 0 0 0 5.52
Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest [20151220].a78 57.71 37.59 4.68 0 0 0
Froggie [20130616].a78 0 0 3.21 6.65 0 90.13
Ms Pac-Man 320 (POKEY) [20110808].a78 0 0 0 0 0 100
Pac-Man 320 (POKEY) [20110810].a78 0 0 0 0 0 100
Pac-Man Collection (POKEY) [20120119].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Super Circus Atari Age (POKEY 4000) [20140113].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Ace of Aces (1988) (Atari).a78 89.78 0 10.21 0 0 0
Alien Brigade (1990) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Asteroids (1987) (Atari).a78 76.63 0 23.36 0 0 0
Ballblazer (1987) (Atari-Lucasfilm).a78 99.76 0 0.23 0 0 0
Barnyard Blaster (1988) (Atari) [!].a78 96.14 0 3.85 0 0 0
Basketbrawl (1990) (Atari).a78 92.46 7.53 0 0 0 0
Centipede (1987) (Atari).a78 95.84 0 4.15 0 0 0
Choplifter (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Commando (1989) (Atari).a78 31.68 59.85 8.45 0 0 0
Crack'ed (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Crossbow (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Dark Chambers (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Desert Falcon (1987) (Atari).a78 92.83 0 7.16 0 0 0
Dig Dug (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Donkey Kong (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Donkey Kong Jr (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Double Dragon (1989) (Activision).a78 90.87 0 9.12 0 0 0
F-18 Hornet (1988) (Absolute) [!].a78 84.52 0 15.47 0 0 0
Fatal Run (1990) (Atari).a78 53.07 46.92 0 0 0 0
Fight Night (1988) (Atari).a78 65.03 0 34.96 0 0 0
Food Fight (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Galaga (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Hat Trick (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Ikari Warriors (1989) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Impossible Mission (1987) (Atari).a78 64.67 0.68 10.62 0 24.02 0
Jinks (1989) (Atari).a78 73.71 24.45 1.15 0.67 0 0
Joust (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Karateka (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Kung Fu Master (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78 96.17 0 3.82 0 0 0
Mario Brothers (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Mat Mania Challenge (1989) (Atari).a78 90.86 7.66 1.47 0 0 0
Mean 18 Golf (1988) (Atari) [!].a78 87.64 3.55 8.8 0 0 0
Meltdown (1990) (Atari).a78 61.87 16.2 21.91 0 0 0
Midnight Mutants (1990) (Atari).a78 92.38 0 7.61 0 0 0
Motor Psycho (1990) (Atari).a78 92.47 1.11 6.41 0 0 0
Ms. Pac-Man (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Ninja Golf (1990) (Atari).a78 82.84 17.15 0 0 0 0
Pete Rose Baseball (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78 61.31 0 38.68 0 0 0
Planet Smashers (1990) (Atari).a78 77.91 16.56 5.01 0 0.51 0
Pole Position II (1987) (Atari).a78 90.17 0 9.82 0 0 0
Rampage (1989) (Activision).a78 81.04 18.95 0 0 0 0
RealSports Baseball (1988) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Robotron 2084 (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Scrapyard Dog (1990) (Atari).a78 91.32 0.05 8.62 0 0 0
Summer Games (1987) (Atari).a78 88.9 0.94 10.14 0 0 0
Summer Games (1987) (Atari).a78 30.18 0 69.81 0 0 0
Super Huey UH-IX (1989) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Super Skateboardin' (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Tank Command (1988) (Froggo) [!].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Title Match Pro Wrestling (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Tomcat - The F-14 (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Touchdown Football (1988) (Atari).a78 67.18 0 23.64 2.45 0.04 6.68
Tower Toppler (1988) (Atari).a78 0 0 100 0 0 0
Water Ski (1988) (Froggo).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
Winter Games (1987) (Atari).a78 69.52 0 28.92 1.55 0 0
Xenophobe (1989) (Atari) [!].a78 70.7 17.65 11.64 0 0 0
Xevious (1987) (Atari).a78 100 0 0 0 0 0
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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 5:50 PM, Trebor said:
ROM Name % 160A % 160B % 320A % 320B % 320C % 320D
Asteroids (1987) (Atari).a78 76.63 0 23.36 0 0 0
             

 

When does Asteroids use any 320 mode? All I see is 160, on the title and in-game.

 

Edited by MrFish

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1 hour ago, MrFish said:

When does Asteroids use any 320 mode? All I see is 160, on the title and in-game.

Good catch.  Looks like that entry was intended for the Deluxe version by PacManPlus not the original:

 

image.thumb.png.29947897b5f6cd5205a484060920bd6c.png

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6 hours ago, Trebor said:

Good catch.  Looks like that entry was intended for the Deluxe version by PacManPlus not the original:

 

image.thumb.png.29947897b5f6cd5205a484060920bd6c.png

 

Yes, that's the first thing that came to my mind, Asteroids Deluxe.

 

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

 

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, MrFish said:

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

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22 hours ago, ZippyRedPlumber said:

If my games was to be made of entirely 320 mode? How many colors would I use?

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

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4 hours ago, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

So in 320B, sprites would have 2 colors each?

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They'd have up to 12 colours and you can choose between 2 sets of 12 colours which are the first 4 or last 4 palettes combined.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

 

27 minutes ago, SmittyB said:

They'd have up to 12 colours and you can choose between 2 sets of 12 colours which are the first 4 or last 4 palettes combined.

 

 

320B (WM=1,RM1=1,RM0=0) 2 bits per pixel, 3 colors + background & transparent from 2 palettes

 

160B (WM=1,RM1=0,RM0=0) 4 bits per pixel, 12 colors + background/transparent from 2 palettes

 

Edited by Defender_2600
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Damn, yeah I was thinking of 160B. Ignore me. (I blame a lack of sleep these past couple of days)

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20 minutes ago, SmittyB said:

Damn, yeah I was thinking of 160B. Ignore me. (I blame a lack of sleep these past couple of days)

 

No, just to help, sometimes we think too many things at once.  :) 

 

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, MrFish said:

 

Yes, that's the first thing that came to my mind, Asteroids Deluxe.

 

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

 

 

6 hours ago, PacManPlus said:

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

image.thumb.png.9b00385b32394d6da149934cc298aeff.png

 

Just give yourself a minute to pause and think about it, MrFish...It's there. ;)

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6 hours ago, PacManPlus said:

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

 

28 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Just give yourself a minute to pause and think about it, MrFish...It's there. ;)

 

That's great; I'd never heard about the easter egg. I always thought it seemed odd not to have done VE 320, after having Deluxe in 320 mode.

 

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4 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

320B (WM=1,RM1=1,RM0=0) 2 bits per pixel, 3 colors + background & transparent from 2 palettes

 

 

Not quite.  The bits/pixel and palettes (P0 and P4) are correct but there's the extra limitation on the the C1 palette entry.  Since the pixels are defined as "pixel pairs", in order for C1 to be displayed properly it must be paired with a C2 or C3 pixel. If it's paired with itself (C1-C1) or the background (C1-BG or BG-C1), both pixels will be transparent.  So unless you're being extremely careful with how you mingle some C1 into your sprites, you'll find each palette will mostly be using two colors + background.

 

Note that the Prosystem emulator does not properly show this limitation, but mame/A7800 emulators will.

 

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On 7/1/2020 at 2:21 PM, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

I can clear some of that up:

 

320D allows for four colors per character, but only two per column of the character.  Not useful of it's own.  I tried to do an interlace trick to where you swap the character set, and also the palettes, so that you could get full 4 color coverage over the entire character.  I am not sure it was entirely successful.

 

320C allows for 8 colors, I think, but every pixel pair has to come from the same palette.  PMP uses it for Mrs. Pac Man's Bow.  There might be some interlace tricks to get 15 colors per char here, but with limitations.

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