More than 1 mode?

[ZippyRedPlumber]

I know this has been asked before but are there any 7800 games that utilized more than 1 graphics mode whether it being homebrew or officially released by Atari?

[+SmittyB]

The only official release that I can think of is Tower Toppler which uses 320A for the main game and 160A for the underwater sections between levels.

For homebrew I know Baby Pac-Man uses 320(A?) for the maze section and 160A for the pinball section.

Spire of the Ancients uses and mix of 320A, 320B, and 160A for the titlescreen, 320A for a few textscreens, and a mix of 320A and 160A for the main game screen.

[PacManPlus]

Yep - actually Baby Pac-Man uses 320B for the maze and 160A for the pinball section.

 

Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest uses 320A (Indicator Area), 160A (Background), 160B (Sprites).

Edited June 27, 2020 by PacManPlus

[ZippyRedPlumber]

If the main player sprites was in 320 mode, everything else being 160. What would the maximum amount of colors for the player be?

[+SmittyB]

The graphics modes work in pairs so that you can overlap 160A with 160B, 320A with 320C, or 320B with 320D .

You can have any of those modes on screen at once but it means changing the mode mid screen so you can't have a 160 mode with a 320 mode in the same vertical space.

 

With Spire of the Ancients' title screen the mountains are 320B, then it changes to 320A for the text, then it changes to 160A for the horse graphic, and that's only possible because they're separated vertically and it's changing the modes in specific places.

Edited June 27, 2020 by SmittyB
Corrected 320B/C to 320B/D

[+MrFish]

Commando

[+Defender_2600]

1 hour ago, SmittyB said:

The graphics modes work in pairs so that you can overlap 160A with 160B, 320A with 320C, or 320B with 320C.

 

Interesting. I didn't know that the 320B and 320C modes could be used in the same area, I always thought that the 320B mode could only be combined with the 320D mode.

[+SmittyB]

3 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Interesting. I didn't know that the 320B and 320C modes could be used in the same area, I always thought that the 320B mode could only be combined with the 320D mode.

It can't, that was a typo that I've now corrected. That's for spotting that.

320A goes with 320C, 320B goes with 320D.

My apologies for the mistake.

[+Defender_2600]

Thanks for the clarification and absolutely unnecessary apologies.

[Trebor]

Thanks to @RevEng, I was able to run a special build of MAME which would provide the various attributes used for a particular title during the span of time in which the ROM ran.  In each of the below titles, the time spent was ~1 minute.  Typically going from the title screen to in-game playing.

 

It covers a few homebrews and the entire retail library.  This was done several years ago.

 

The attached file in *.csv format provides the list of ROM names tested and the various graphics modes. Each graphics mode utilized is broken down by percentage.  The below spoiler also contains the same data.

 

  a78info_EDIT.csv

 

ROM Name	% 160A	% 160B	% 320A	% 320B	% 320C	% 320D
Beef Drop (Final AtariAge).a78	3.93	65.12	30.94	0	0	0
Donkey Kong PK-XM [Final v1.3].a78	94.36	0.1	0	0	0	5.52
Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest [20151220].a78	57.71	37.59	4.68	0	0	0
Froggie [20130616].a78	0	0	3.21	6.65	0	90.13
Ms Pac-Man 320 (POKEY) [20110808].a78	0	0	0	0	0	100
Pac-Man 320 (POKEY) [20110810].a78	0	0	0	0	0	100
Pac-Man Collection (POKEY) [20120119].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Super Circus Atari Age (POKEY 4000) [20140113].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Ace of Aces (1988) (Atari).a78	89.78	0	10.21	0	0	0
Alien Brigade (1990) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Asteroids (1987) (Atari).a78	76.63	0	23.36	0	0	0
Ballblazer (1987) (Atari-Lucasfilm).a78	99.76	0	0.23	0	0	0
Barnyard Blaster (1988) (Atari) [!].a78	96.14	0	3.85	0	0	0
Basketbrawl (1990) (Atari).a78	92.46	7.53	0	0	0	0
Centipede (1987) (Atari).a78	95.84	0	4.15	0	0	0
Choplifter (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Commando (1989) (Atari).a78	31.68	59.85	8.45	0	0	0
Crack'ed (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Crossbow (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Dark Chambers (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Desert Falcon (1987) (Atari).a78	92.83	0	7.16	0	0	0
Dig Dug (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Donkey Kong (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Donkey Kong Jr (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Double Dragon (1989) (Activision).a78	90.87	0	9.12	0	0	0
F-18 Hornet (1988) (Absolute) [!].a78	84.52	0	15.47	0	0	0
Fatal Run (1990) (Atari).a78	53.07	46.92	0	0	0	0
Fight Night (1988) (Atari).a78	65.03	0	34.96	0	0	0
Food Fight (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Galaga (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Hat Trick (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Ikari Warriors (1989) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Impossible Mission (1987) (Atari).a78	64.67	0.68	10.62	0	24.02	0
Jinks (1989) (Atari).a78	73.71	24.45	1.15	0.67	0	0
Joust (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Karateka (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Kung Fu Master (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78	96.17	0	3.82	0	0	0
Mario Brothers (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Mat Mania Challenge (1989) (Atari).a78	90.86	7.66	1.47	0	0	0
Mean 18 Golf (1988) (Atari) [!].a78	87.64	3.55	8.8	0	0	0
Meltdown (1990) (Atari).a78	61.87	16.2	21.91	0	0	0
Midnight Mutants (1990) (Atari).a78	92.38	0	7.61	0	0	0
Motor Psycho (1990) (Atari).a78	92.47	1.11	6.41	0	0	0
Ms. Pac-Man (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Ninja Golf (1990) (Atari).a78	82.84	17.15	0	0	0	0
Pete Rose Baseball (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78	61.31	0	38.68	0	0	0
Planet Smashers (1990) (Atari).a78	77.91	16.56	5.01	0	0.51	0
Pole Position II (1987) (Atari).a78	90.17	0	9.82	0	0	0
Rampage (1989) (Activision).a78	81.04	18.95	0	0	0	0
RealSports Baseball (1988) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Robotron 2084 (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Scrapyard Dog (1990) (Atari).a78	91.32	0.05	8.62	0	0	0
Summer Games (1987) (Atari).a78	88.9	0.94	10.14	0	0	0
Summer Games (1987) (Atari).a78	30.18	0	69.81	0	0	0
Super Huey UH-IX (1989) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Super Skateboardin' (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Tank Command (1988) (Froggo) [!].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Title Match Pro Wrestling (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Tomcat - The F-14 (1989) (Absolute) [!].a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Touchdown Football (1988) (Atari).a78	67.18	0	23.64	2.45	0.04	6.68
Tower Toppler (1988) (Atari).a78	0	0	100	0	0	0
Water Ski (1988) (Froggo).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0
Winter Games (1987) (Atari).a78	69.52	0	28.92	1.55	0	0
Xenophobe (1989) (Atari) [!].a78	70.7	17.65	11.64	0	0	0
Xevious (1987) (Atari).a78	100	0	0	0	0	0

[+MrFish]

On 6/27/2020 at 5:50 PM, Trebor said:

ROM Name	% 160A	% 160B	% 320A	% 320B	% 320C	% 320D
Asteroids (1987) (Atari).a78	76.63	0	23.36	0	0	0

 

When does Asteroids use any 320 mode? All I see is 160, on the title and in-game.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by MrFish

[Trebor]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

When does Asteroids use any 320 mode? All I see is 160, on the title and in-game.

Good catch.  Looks like that entry was intended for the Deluxe version by PacManPlus not the original:

 

[+MrFish]

6 hours ago, Trebor said:

Good catch.  Looks like that entry was intended for the Deluxe version by PacManPlus not the original:

 

 

Yes, that's the first thing that came to my mind, Asteroids Deluxe.

 

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

 

[ZippyRedPlumber]

If my games was to be made of entirely 320 mode? How many colors would I use?

[PacManPlus]

On 6/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, MrFish said:

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

[+SmittyB]

22 hours ago, ZippyRedPlumber said:

If my games was to be made of entirely 320 mode? How many colors would I use?

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

[ZippyRedPlumber]

4 hours ago, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

So in 320B, sprites would have 2 colors each?

[+SmittyB]

They'd have up to 12 colours and you can choose between 2 sets of 12 colours which are the first 4 or last 4 palettes combined.

[+Defender_2600]

4 hours ago, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

 

27 minutes ago, SmittyB said:

They'd have up to 12 colours and you can choose between 2 sets of 12 colours which are the first 4 or last 4 palettes combined.

 

 

320B (WM=1,RM1=1,RM0=0) 2 bits per pixel, 3 colors + background & transparent from 2 palettes

 

160B (WM=1,RM1=0,RM0=0) 4 bits per pixel, 12 colors + background/transparent from 2 palettes

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Defender_2600

[+SmittyB]

Damn, yeah I was thinking of 160B. Ignore me. (I blame a lack of sleep these past couple of days)

[+Defender_2600]

20 minutes ago, SmittyB said:

Damn, yeah I was thinking of 160B. Ignore me. (I blame a lack of sleep these past couple of days)

 

No, just to help, sometimes we think too many things at once.   

 

[Trebor]

On 6/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, MrFish said:

 

Yes, that's the first thing that came to my mind, Asteroids Deluxe.

 

Too bad PacManPlus never created an Asteroids VE in 320.

 

 

6 hours ago, PacManPlus said:

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

 

Just give yourself a minute to pause and think about it, MrFish...It's there.

[+MrFish]

6 hours ago, PacManPlus said:

It actually exists as an easter egg inside asteroids deluxe

 

28 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Just give yourself a minute to pause and think about it, MrFish...It's there.

 

That's great; I'd never heard about the easter egg. I always thought it seemed odd not to have done VE 320, after having Deluxe in 320 mode.

 

[Mord]

4 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

320B (WM=1,RM1=1,RM0=0) 2 bits per pixel, 3 colors + background & transparent from 2 palettes

 

 

Not quite.  The bits/pixel and palettes (P0 and P4) are correct but there's the extra limitation on the the C1 palette entry.  Since the pixels are defined as "pixel pairs", in order for C1 to be displayed properly it must be paired with a C2 or C3 pixel. If it's paired with itself (C1-C1) or the background (C1-BG or BG-C1), both pixels will be transparent.  So unless you're being extremely careful with how you mingle some C1 into your sprites, you'll find each palette will mostly be using two colors + background.

 

Note that the Prosystem emulator does not properly show this limitation, but mame/A7800 emulators will.

 

[Synthpopalooza]

On 7/1/2020 at 2:21 PM, SmittyB said:

If 320A, 8 palettes of 1 colour. If 320B, 2 palettes of 12 colours.

320C and 320D have a bunch of restrictions that I don't fully understand so can't comment on them, but you're unlikely to want to use those for anything but static images.

I can clear some of that up:

 

320D allows for four colors per character, but only two per column of the character.  Not useful of it's own.  I tried to do an interlace trick to where you swap the character set, and also the palettes, so that you could get full 4 color coverage over the entire character.  I am not sure it was entirely successful.

 

320C allows for 8 colors, I think, but every pixel pair has to come from the same palette.  PMP uses it for Mrs. Pac Man's Bow.  There might be some interlace tricks to get 15 colors per char here, but with limitations.