New, cheaper SGM clone.

[+lawdawg710]

Well, Mr. Pix, glad I am not your "target" audience.  But I, like many others, simply don't appreciate the tone, apparent attitude and outright attacks toward Eduardo, Opcode or the SGM.  You are literally offering nothing to the CV community.  So you want to add features to the SGM?  Cool, but due to you basically bashing the ones who produce titles for the SGM, I doubt any feature you add would be used in any new homebrew.  

 

I mentioned the Juicebox because the POS that made that condundrum, came off much the same way you are.  Brash, rude, arrogant and just acting like a jack ass in general.  There was no reason, in my opinion, to start the thread the way you did.  So, if you produce this, and sell the handful you may actually sell, I hope you feel like you accomplished something, while the rest of us go on with our lives and enjoy what Opcode produces for us!!!!

[christo930]

40 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I'd really prefer to talk to things that could easily be added to an SGM compatible to make it more interesting.

 

 

The problem with that is there is nothing you can do that would make things better by default.  Whatever improvements you could make would be yet another CV platform.  You would have the CV, Adam, SGM, yours and the SGM2 (which I assume is going to eventually come out).  There is some overlap there if yours were SGM compatible and assuming it stayed compatible (after it's already out there and a new release for the SGM doesn't work with it), there would also be incompatibilities between the MrPixSGM and the SGM2. None of the games written for it would work with the Phoenix.  That's kind of a lot of platforms for such a small user base, don't you think?   I would think you would at least need a killer app to solve the no software means no hardware sales trap.

[SegaSnatcher]

Competition is good and like you said it's mainly off the shelf parts anyways.  As long as you stay within the legal realm then there is nothing people can really do about it. 

If you can really sell this at $49 then hats off to you.  I'm sure many will be on board. 

9 hours ago, Keatah said:

On the simple side, without drama or anything.. Do we need another sgm/clone? I mean it's already covered in software emulation, the phoenix, and the first sgm.

 

 

Mega SG as well.  That is how I've been playing SGM games.     Oh, I also forgot that the open source FPGA Project MiSTer also has SGM support.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by SegaSnatcher

[artrag]

A price war on sgm is even less welcome than a second SGM source.

Eduardo will stop game development and all the rest and, once MrPix gets his revenge, he will stop as well...

MrPix you should make a your own platform, you could consider adding a v9938 or v9958, to make msx 2 ports simpler, or go for F18 and its features 

[TPR]

To further a more productive discussion, and something that I feel the community could actually use, we have been talking about a "Drop-in, replacement PCB" for the original hardware for YEARS now and no one has ever made one.  I personally would love that.  I have a handful of consoles that could use some new life breathed into them.  A few people have started this project but nothing ever happened with it.  

 

That would be my suggestion if you want to consider making hardware for this community. 

[mr_me]

11 hours ago, MrPix said:

...

At the end of the day, I just need an SGM compatible base for other new hardware.

This is true. It's just that so many DO own them that not having compatibility is a non-starter.

I looked at the Inty cart port and I honestly haven't fully grasped it yet. Normally I look at the memory system as a whole, but the way the Inty does things is like a bad and confusing fever dream. I do plan to put my wifi cart on the Inty a few months after releasing it for the CV.

I have a paged flash cart design I did for the CV, but during design I found out there was an existing one, so I stopped. I decided to circle round and see if I needed to be compatible with it or just go past it to the better thing. That's how I ended up at the Wifi cart.

What's a wifi cart?  Do you envision internet multiplayer games?  Not sure about new hardware features unless you want to create games for it.  Programmers don't want to develop for a subset of the install base.  The opcode sgm worked because it supported the porting of existing games.  The f18a fpga worked because it fixed sprite flicker for existing games.

 

An intellivision flash cart is not a bad idea.  The ltoflash hasn't been available for a while now and is relatively expensive.  Curious to see if a more efficient design can be made.  I'd prefer to see one that didn't use any dedicated PC software whether the interface is usb or sd card.

[Pixelboy]

9 hours ago, TPR said:

o further a more productive discussion, and something that I feel the community could actually use, we have been talking about a "Drop-in, replacement PCB" for the original hardware for YEARS now and no one has ever made one.  I personally would love that.  I have a handful of consoles that could use some new life breathed into them.  A few people have started this project but nothing ever happened with it.  

 

That would be my suggestion if you want to consider making hardware for this community.

I second this. I happen to have an unused CV console that barely works and is all ready for a drop-in replacement motherboard. Not sure what kind of TV out options I'd want with it, but I'd settle for regular RF through the original RF output plug if that's an option. Other options would probably force the drilling of additional holes in the console casing, which is no big deal for me as long as it's done cleanly.

 

[doubledown]

5 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

I second this. I happen to have an unused CV console that barely works and is all ready for a drop-in replacement motherboard. Not sure what kind of TV out options I'd want with it, but I'd settle for regular RF through the original RF output plug if that's an option. Other options would probably force the drilling of additional holes in the console casing, which is no big deal for me as long as it's done cleanly.

 

You could just "swap-tronics" all of the components, one by one, until it works properly!

[opcode]

12 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

I second this. I happen to have an unused CV console that barely works and is all ready for a drop-in replacement motherboard. Not sure what kind of TV out options I'd want with it, but I'd settle for regular RF through the original RF output plug if that's an option. Other options would probably force the drilling of additional holes in the console casing, which is no big deal for me as long as it's done cleanly.

 

 

Our friend Jimmy at Ruggers Customs can get your PCB repaired and reconditioned with nice new video options in no time. 

[Swami]

We still need an adapter so we can plug in our sgm and EM1 at the same time and still play ColecoVision games. 

 

Then there’s the adapter to clean up the optics on the Phoenix. 

 

 

[NIAD]

36 minutes ago, Swami said:

We still need an adapter so we can plug in our sgm and EM1 at the same time and still play ColecoVision games. 

 

Then there’s the adapter to clean up the optics on the Phoenix. 

 

 

The adapter you propose would need a true OFF/CLOSED switch for the EM#1 because as everyone knows, the EM#1 completely overrides all CV functionality with the exception of power and RF output.

[NIAD]

Should a moderator change the title of this thread to “What the CV community needs most re new hardware”?

[MrPix]

11 hours ago, christo930 said:

The problem with that is there is nothing you can do that would make things better by default.  Whatever improvements you could make would be yet another CV platform.  You would have the CV, Adam, SGM, yours and the SGM2 (which I assume is going to eventually come out).  There is some overlap there if yours were SGM compatible and assuming it stayed compatible (after it's already out there and a new release for the SGM doesn't work with it), there would also be incompatibilities between the MrPixSGM and the SGM2. None of the games written for it would work with the Phoenix.  That's kind of a lot of platforms for such a small user base, don't you think?   I would think you would at least need a killer app to solve the no software means no hardware sales trap.

Ok. Let's deconstruct this. It's interesting.

I'll work from the top down:

The SGM2 appears to be some kind of MSX-like add-on. It's even being developed by Brazilians, where MSX was so popular it was manufactured locally, and that is the only place left where the old ICs are still available - even if only in very limited quantities. So the SGM2 is so different it's not really part of the conversation.

The SGM is functionality that in '82 was still quite expensive to provide, so it was split out as an optional extra. The RAM part of the functionality has always existed in principle in the Adam. In '82 this required 8 or 16 DRAMs and with Coleco's house style of designing usually had complex requirements including 12V and -5V supplies, and the ubiquitous refresh. The sound part of the functionality was simply a matter of arcade boards using sound chip X, and the CV using the cheaper sound chip Y. It's hard to get the full complexity of the sound from those arcade boards without that AY-3-8910 - it has some interesting capabilities. It was also used as an IO expander on many of the boards. Coleco just slapped it in there, mapped the registers to IO space, and didn't use the IO features at all. 

The SGM (as re-implemented by Eduardo's gang) doesn't change anything in the CV. It adds a layer of basic functionality. It uses a primitive paging scheme to enable/disable 24K and to map 8K. When you plug it in, it is disabled until explicitly enabled by software. It is, in effect, a dongle that can be used to enable or disable functionality. It's a Superset. An SGM-equipped CV is still 100% a CV.

The compatible I am producing is also a superset. It has the 32K of RAM - I would have liked to included 512K of paged SRAM, but the primitive paging system the SGM uses wouldn't support it.

The CV and Adam... The CV logic is incorporated within the Adam, but the Adam uses a different and far superior paging system - the CV doesn't even have an effective paging/mapping system by default. The Adam is a Superset of the CV with some minor changes that are easily disabled. The only problematic element of the SGM in the Adam is that Coleco laid out a clear path for how to page memory and the SGM doesn't use it. It's academic, because if an SGM and SGM-capable cart are in an Adam, those Adam elements are disabled on reset anyway.

What could I add to that, compatibly, for a retail cost less than the SGM currently ($90 plus shipping)?

Audio out.
Two more controller ports, which could flexibly map as 3 and 4, or to 1 and 2 but work as Amiga/Atari/Genesis format converters.

Pause button.

Save state to SD, pick up at the exact same point later.
SD-loaded games.
512K or 2MB SRAM, paged.
CP/M.
AdamNet.

Do I need a killer app? No. It already exists.  

[MrPix]

11 hours ago, TPR said:

To further a more productive discussion, and something that I feel the community could actually use, we have been talking about a "Drop-in, replacement PCB" for the original hardware for YEARS now and no one has ever made one.  I personally would love that.  I have a handful of consoles that could use some new life breathed into them.  A few people have started this project but nothing ever happened with it.

I am working on a replacement PCB using modern components and the same form factor as the existing CV, in spare time. However, it is a very long term project. I'm more aimed at the Adam side of things, and wish to replace the top board, which is 'most of' the CV. However, that would be competing with the Phoenix and would cost about the same so it isn't very compelling. Building 80s style boards out of discrete components is expensive. I have neither the time nor inclination to repeat CollectorVision's work of porting the CV hardware to Verilog or VHDL. When that job is completed, I would likely just make a single run to cover interest, and that's it. The design would be published as open hardware and people would be able to order their own PCBs and assemble their CV replacements themselves.

 

[MrPix]

11 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

If you can really sell this at $49 then hats off to you.  I'm sure many will be on board. 

Mega SG as well.  That is how I've been playing SGM games.     Oh, I also forgot that the open source FPGA Project MiSTer also has SGM support.

I can sell it for $15 and make a profit. I'm offering it for $45 because it doesn't have a case, box or manual. I'll include a nice custom ABS case if there are 100 interested people.

I am not out for "revenge" and don't understand why people think that. I can afford to make 10,000 and give them away for free with free shipping. If I were after revenge I would do something like that. I set the price at half Opcode's price because I think that is a fair value. Ironically, with a lower barrier to entry, people will have more reason to buy Opcode games.

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

What's a wifi cart?

It's a cart that has wifi and can download games from companies like Opcode, meaning you always have the latest updates, bug fixes, new content etc.

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

Do you envision internet multiplayer games?

I do, and I think the option could be quite exciting. It's really about promoting and encouraging original content and new gameplay authentic to the 80s style. I have half-written a basically functional game that needs three or four players. Each round, one is selected as the survivor, and the others are zombies. It creates some interesting game dynamics. It has elements of Pacman, snake, and some more recent games where you can't see what's going on unless it's line of sight. It's just tricky to go much further because I'm an engineer, not an artist.

1 hour ago, NIAD said:

Should a moderator change the title of this thread to “What the CV community needs most re new hardware”?

No, I don't think so, but that would be a worthwhile separate thread.

[christo930]

14 minutes ago, MrPix said:

ctionality that i

 

 

21 minutes ago, MrPix said:

Ok. Let's deconstruct this. It's interesting.

I'll work from the top down:

The SGM2 appears to be some kind of MSX-like add-on. It's even being developed by Brazilians, where MSX was so popular it was manufactured locally, and that is the only place left where the old ICs are still available - even if only in very limited quantities. So the SGM2 is so different it's not really part of the conversation.

The SGM is functionality that in '82 was still quite expensive to provide, so it was split out as an optional extra. The RAM part of the functionality has always existed in principle in the Adam. In '82 this required 8 or 16 DRAMs and with Coleco's house style of designing usually had complex requirements including 12V and -5V supplies, and the ubiquitous refresh. The sound part of the functionality was simply a matter of arcade boards using sound chip X, and the CV using the cheaper sound chip Y. It's hard to get the full complexity of the sound from those arcade boards without that AY-3-8910 - it has some interesting capabilities. It was also used as an IO expander on many of the boards. Coleco just slapped it in there, mapped the registers to IO space, and didn't use the IO features at all. 

The SGM (as re-implemented by Eduardo's gang) doesn't change anything in the CV. It adds a layer of basic functionality. It uses a primitive paging scheme to enable/disable 24K and to map 8K. When you plug it in, it is disabled until explicitly enabled by software. It is, in effect, a dongle that can be used to enable or disable functionality. It's a Superset. An SGM-equipped CV is still 100% a CV.

The compatible I am producing is also a superset. It has the 32K of RAM - I would have liked to included 512K of paged SRAM, but the primitive paging system the SGM uses wouldn't support it.

The CV and Adam... The CV logic is incorporated within the Adam, but the Adam uses a different and far superior paging system - the CV doesn't even have an effective paging/mapping system by default. The Adam is a Superset of the CV with some minor changes that are easily disabled. The only problematic element of the SGM in the Adam is that Coleco laid out a clear path for how to page memory and the SGM doesn't use it. It's academic, because if an SGM and SGM-capable cart are in an Adam, those Adam elements are disabled on reset anyway.

What could I add to that, compatibly, for a retail cost less than the SGM currently ($90 plus shipping)?

Audio out.
Two more controller ports, which could flexibly map as 3 and 4, or to 1 and 2 but work as Amiga/Atari/Genesis format converters.

Pause button.

Save state to SD, pick up at the exact same point later.
SD-loaded games.
512K or 2MB SRAM, paged.
CP/M.
AdamNet.

Do I need a killer app? No. It already exists.  

 

I realize that you want to implement a superset and that it would be possible to make sure it is backwards compatible with all existing CV games, especially legacy games.  It sounds to me like it would be trivially easy for the SGM guys to detect your SGM and cause it to not work. After all, it's not a clone of the SGM, it is compatible with the SGM. In addition to detecting it and just refusing to run, it could end up causing problems with new SGM games created after you released your SGM. (assuming there are ever any new SGM games, which I think is highly unlikely. They are going to have to create games for the SGM 2)

In order to take advantage of the super-set you plan on creating, games will have to be made for it.  I think that is going to be a tough sell.  Keeping the SGM going is one thing, creating a whole new platform is another.  People might buy your board because the real SGM is no longer being made in the future and they want SGM compatibility with their legacy CV machine, but then why add all these other chips that won't be supported by new software?  While the new features will be a superset, the people who actually own one of these super-duper-SGM boards will be a small subset of active CV users. Anyone who writes a game for the new super-duper-SGM will be necessarily severely limiting the game's appeal.

 

You say there is already a killer app. What app is that?

 

[opcode]

7 minutes ago, christo930 said:

 (assuming there are ever any new SGM games, which I think is highly unlikely. They are going to have to create games for the SGM 2)

 

 

Actually I recently announced that we put SGM2 on hold (the turbulent times we are now living in being the main reason) and are concentrating on SGM games. We shown the games, which includes some long awaited games. AFAIK Pixelboy is still supporting the SGM, so I don't see a slow down. In fact we may see an increase in games next year.

[christo930]

38 minutes ago, MrPix said:

Audio out.
Two more controller ports, which could flexibly map as 3 and 4, or to 1 and 2 but work as Amiga/Atari/Genesis format converters.

Pause button.

Save state to SD, pick up at the exact same point later.
SD-loaded games.

AWESOME!  Save to SD would be absolutely amazing.  Saving HS tables to SD also awesome.  A pee button is absolutely great.

I'd buy one for these features alone.

8 minutes ago, christo930 said:

512K or 2MB SRAM, paged.
CP/M.
AdamNet.

Why?  Is the lack of 512k really the thing holding back CV games?

CP/M  REALLY?  I was just thinking how much I would love to operate a CP/M machine with a joystick!

AdamNet I have no idea what AdamNet is or why it would make better games for the CV.

 

 

Bottom line is if you could make a super-duper-SGM with the SD card, ability to sub out other controllers with 100% compatibility with all existing CV games, that alone would be well worth the price of admission.

With an SD card slot, why not allow the playing of CV games with ROM files?

[MrPix]

4 minutes ago, christo930 said:

It sounds to me like it would be trivially easy for the SGM guys to detect your SGM and cause it to not work. After all, it's not a clone of the SGM, it is compatible with the SGM.

I don't think they would do that. If they did, a lot of people would have a problem with it including the FTC. However, most of the added benefits I propose are 100% passive.

4 minutes ago, christo930 said:

In order to take advantage of the super-set you plan on creating, games will have to be made for it.  I think that is going to be a tough sell.

Every existing game will work on it. New games could use the extended features or not. That's up to them. I'm not out here forcing people to do or not do things. Chase your own bliss.  

4 minutes ago, christo930 said:

You say there is already a killer app. What app is that?

Opcode's entire catalog. PixelBoy's entire catalog. Every game for the CV ever released.

[128Kgames]

55 minutes ago, MrPix said:

What could I add to that, compatibly, for a retail cost less than the SGM currently ($90 plus shipping)?

Audio out.
Two more controller ports, which could flexibly map as 3 and 4, or to 1 and 2 but work as Amiga/Atari/Genesis format converters.

Pause button.

Save state to SD, pick up at the exact same point later.
SD-loaded games.
512K or 2MB SRAM, paged.
CP/M.
AdamNet.

Do I need a killer app? No. It already exists.  

I wish you were into the Astrocade, if ever a system needed a drop in replacement motherboard let alone an "enhancement" other than expanded RAM (which it already has) its the Astrocade.  I've been trying to get people interested in it for years but nothing ever seems to stick. 

 

I can understand you wanting to create an all in one fantastic device for the Coleco, but I'm not sure there is a place for it.  This is coming from me, the Coleco guy, the player and collector, not from the Opcode friend and product defender.  

 

I'm really asking do we really need yet another hardware device for the Coleco?  I'm not sure it wouldn't just get lost among everything else.  Really, its games I think we need at this point, arcade ports, etc.

 

We've got the SGM, we've got the Phoenix, we've got the Atarimax flash cart, I still think something new would be better suited to what we don't have (voice synthesis, multi-tap might be cool but you'd need games to support it, etc.).  

[christo930]

2 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I don't think they would do that. If they did, a lot of people would have a problem with it including the FTC. However, most of the added benefits I propose are 100% passive.

Every existing game will work on it. New games could use the extended features or not. That's up to them. I'm not out here forcing people to do or not do things. Chase your own bliss.  

Opcode's entire catalog. PixelBoy's entire catalog. Every game for the CV ever released.

Well, if you could actually add all of these extra chip functionality for free, the sky is the limit.  But feature creep ends up biting even the most competent of people.  Adding additional features will, I think, cost time and money. But if you could add all the extra functionality (aside from the SD and pause button and the like) without delay or expense,  why not.

[opcode]

I have never been mentioned so many times in a single thread by the same person in my whole life. Not even in my own threads. Someone does love me.... or as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[christo930]

Is something similar to the DPC+ chip for Atari cartridges possible for the Colecovision?

 

If something like that is possible on the PCB of a CV cartridge, it might make the whole SGM thing unnecessary.  As I understand it, the SGM was created to make it simpler and faster to convert existing MSX 1 games to the CV by making the CV more like an MSX 1. 

[opcode]

10 minutes ago, christo930 said:

As I understand it, the SGM was created to make it simpler and faster to convert existing MSX 1 games to the CV by making the CV more like an MSX 1. 

 That is a misconception actually. It was created to make more accurate arcade ports. In fact the game that motivated the whole thing was DKA. 
That said, the MSX thing happened. That system had many good games, and the SGM made it easier to port those. However we had MSX ports before the SGM. 
I take my share of responsibility for the misconception, because I drifted from the original goal over the years. May my new headings correct that in the upcoming years. 
 

UPDATE: but I find that a very interesting topic for my new series of video podcasts. 

[christo930]

11 minutes ago, opcode said:

I take my share of responsibility for the misconception, because I drifted from the original goal over the years. May my new headings correct that in the upcoming years. 
 

UPDATE: but I find that a very interesting topic for my new series of video podcasts. 

Thanks for clearing that up for us.  Do you have any existing podcasts in English?  If so, can get a link?  I'd be interested in checking them out.