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rensoup

mode4 clash fixer tool

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, tebe said:

 

With every little color you get more on the screen, the more the picture benefits from the bigger pallette. 

The point here is that an image can be viewed on a small screen, also on a big screen the image is clearly there. 

The image only uses 10 colors , and the available ones on the Atari do their addition. 

16 colors on the C64, 10 colors used, and 3 colors have been already displaced. 

 

How long does it take you to convert this picture in G2F?

As it seems, the tool that rensoup is creating, is aimed to "just load" and show the conversion without a lot of additional work. 

 

Edited by emkay

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2 hours ago, emkay said:

How long does it take you to convert this picture in G2F?

1.5 h

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On 8/3/2020 at 5:45 AM, Synthpopalooza said:

Is it possible to render this where the dither pattern is reversed?  I have an idea ...

hmm not quite sure about that... what's the idea ?

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23 hours ago, Rybags said:

Well the obvious thing now is to throw RC at it (would probably go well with some prep like making the background a uniform luma so colours don't go to waste)

Surprisingly, it doesn't seem to work out too well... I didn't try with a mask because ...hmm.... no background ? 🤔

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, emkay said:

As it seems, the tool that rensoup is creating, is aimed to "just load" and show the conversion without a lot of additional work.

I wish... but no you still have to work a little... you still have to create the PMGs but you do it in a real paint program

Edited by rensoup

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6 hours ago, rensoup said:

hmm not quite sure about that... what's the idea ?

If you blend two frames with flicker. but have the alternate frame be the reverse dithered one ... 

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2 hours ago, Synthpopalooza said:

If you blend two frames with flicker. but have the alternate frame be the reverse dithered one ... 

ah yes that would work but that'd be a last resort option... ( plus that extra 9kb for the 2nd image  )

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Might be less, if characters can be optimized too.  I might play with these on my own too.

 

Even without the flicker, by using checkerboard dithering on some colors you can potentially get 14 apparent colors in ANTIC 4.  Greys can also be made when you blend opposite sides of the color wheel ... i.e. cyan plus red, magenta plus green, blue plus yellow.   These will also blend very well in PAL without flicker.

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8 hours ago, rensoup said:

 

Some 100% easily-doable-for-real game screens:

 

https://csdb.dk/release/?id=143942

 

popC64.png.2d631802e7357eb2980b91759316a934.png  popA8.png.16b5313b7dd5c2ba84fada0c98287297.png

 

 

Rainbow island (screenshot taken from the game on C64)

 

rainbowC64.png.3eff9b95d92017a9462e6699ba805d1c.png  rainbowA8.png.b0d581602e9441c9516320d91df113c5.png

 

 

 

(No... they're not really easily doable for real in case you're wondering)

 

rainbow.obx 23.95 kB · 5 downloads pop.obx 23.95 kB · 6 downloads

I did an attempt once at a Rainbow Islands screen.  It was a convert from Amiga using Super IRG mode.  I had to make the border dark red instead of black but it at least got all the colors into the rainbow.   I am told the flicker on it, even in PAL, was not very noticeable. 

 

 

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On 8/4/2020 at 7:59 PM, Synthpopalooza said:

Might be less, if characters can be optimized too.  I might play with these on my own too.

 

Even without the flicker, by using checkerboard dithering on some colors you can potentially get 14 apparent colors in ANTIC 4.  Greys can also be made when you blend opposite sides of the color wheel ... i.e. cyan plus red, magenta plus green, blue plus yellow.   These will also blend very well in PAL without flicker.

 

I'd rather leave that to an artist than an algorithm, a lot of C64 artists do take care of that very well... Here's one who does crazy stuff, his handle is "Joe": 

 

http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=interviews&id_interview=91

 

Most of his pictures are impossible to convert acurately though.

 

On 8/4/2020 at 8:04 PM, Synthpopalooza said:

I did an attempt once at a Rainbow Islands screen.  It was a convert from Amiga using Super IRG mode.  I had to make the border dark red instead of black but it at least got all the colors into the rainbow.   I am told the flicker on it, even in PAL, was not very noticeable. 

 

it's quite colorful indeed but very dark too (I guess that's why the flicker isn't noticeable)

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Posted (edited)

The flicker people see is usually because of mixed pixel size modes and intensity differentials, if the mode doesn't change but dithering is alternated flickering is way less noticed even at higher intensity.

There is less chance of a dropped field/frame as well. hard to do properly years ago but a modern tool on win86/64 or lin86/64 etc. could make the method childs' play

Edited by _The Doctor__

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2 hours ago, rensoup said:

 

I'd rather leave that to an artist than an algorithm, a lot of C64 artists do take care of that very well... Here's one who does crazy stuff, his handle is "Joe": 

 

http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=interviews&id_interview=91

 

Most of his pictures are impossible to convert acurately though.

 

 

The pictures shown in there aren't possible on the C64 too ;)

 

There is a lot color dither used. Actually it looks like a simulated PAL mixing. 

Are there "real" images to view?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Actually, I started several times to convert some of "Joe's" pictures.

No offense to TeBe,

 

but it always ended with the buggy editing in G2F. After re-setting several values on and on , because the program changes them by accidental crossing something (?) . Quick entering the values also doesn't work . Just entering the values, the value is changed because the program decides that the value is wrong before you finish entering . 

If you delete the value, before you enter something, you get also a value, the program decides that could be the right value. 

 

You need 4x wide players? Have fun trying to set them one pixel shifted. Re-using players per scanline is not included.

 

  It is a solution to have some images done , but complex pictures are making you crazy before they were finished. 

 

 

Even more worse is the Rastaconverter. It doesn't use the Mode 4, so you never get the needed resolution for color changes. 

Not to forget the faulty pallette usage there. 

Also, 99% of those resulting images are not satisfying on a big screen.

 

A painting tool that automatically is adding the possible solutions to enhance the graphics, would be the miracle tool. 

Calculating up to 9 colors per scanline plus all available colors over the screen in an automated tool to import graphics to the Atari. 

That would mean stunning results and quick solutions. 

 

 

Edited by emkay

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, emkay said:

 

You need 4x wide players? Have fun trying to set them one pixel shifted.

disable 'Align PMG pixels to char'

 

p.s. Align pixels is nessesery for 'Fade Effects' (Random box, Box, Left/Right, Plasma)

align_pmg.png

Edited by tebe
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4 hours ago, Synthpopalooza said:

This one here ...

 

https://csdb.dk/release/viewpic.php?id=94235&zoom=1

 

There was a PCIN mode conversion I did of that once.  I used an ANTIC 4 and GTIA 10 conversion in G2F and interleaved.  It flickera, but is mitigated somewhat by the fact that PFx colors on both frames remain solid or can be checkerboarded.

 

 

You would do better to put your efforts into RMT, and save the world from interlaced pictures. ;)

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Posted (edited)
On 8/6/2020 at 7:35 AM, emkay said:

The pictures shown in there aren't possible on the C64 too ;).

 

 

Not sure what you mean by that. Joe is just using an uncommon dithering technique in the C64 bitmap mode. If you open up this site, and select "Fire (2011) by Joe" in the image drop-down menu you can take a closer look at the image.

 

https://www.colodore.com/

 

 

Edited by superrune
Forgot URL
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On 8/6/2020 at 7:35 AM, emkay said:

The pictures shown in there aren't possible on the C64 too ;)

 

There is a lot color dither used. Actually it looks like a simulated PAL mixing. 

Are there "real" images to view?

All his pictures seem to be under 16 colors ? https://csdb.dk/scener/?id=1672

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8 hours ago, rensoup said:

All his pictures seem to be under 16 colors ? https://csdb.dk/scener/?id=1672

The colorization isn't real. Some of the pictures show more than 28 colors. 

And this one still has 16 different shades of grey ( ;) ) , after cutting the colors.  On the Atari it shows REAL 8 colors of one hue. 

 

rulps.png.bfa4bac4b4d24fe70692602a5449c492.png

 

Normally , you could add any color and keep the brightness.  And, if Rastaconverter supported character mode, there would be a more detailes picture aswell. 

 

 

rulps.xex

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9 hours ago, emkay said:

if Rastaconverter supported character mode, there would be a more detailes picture aswell. 

it's not true

 

char mode -> rastersplit -> badlines -> disable badlines -> loss of control on the fifth color

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2 hours ago, tebe said:

it's not true

 

char mode -> rastersplit -> badlines -> disable badlines -> loss of control on the fifth color

I'm still wondering, tebe

 

Didn't you check the MCS demo that I did 20 years ago?

Up to 9 colors on the screen, also several character/color ram changes there, a lot details, and it looks good in a thumbnail, and also is a real image on a big screen.  There is no midline changing happening, and no color register has been changed.

And, yes it was aimed to have something like a C64 color mode there. Thinking about a max. of 16 colors, what colors were really usable without any color bleeding...

6 colors per scanline can be handled in details similar to the C64. Up to 128 colors can be used on the screen.

9 colors per scanline were given withouth the need of color changes via the CPU, if ranges allow to change the colorblocks via PMg.

If the image is then "perfect enough", nifty solutions might bring additional dither every second line, or in the 7 character lines where changes were possible.

 

A Rastaconverter for Graph 2 Font , to have best fitting images in the result, would be the solution. People could draw an image on a different platform drawing tool, and then import the main graphics easily. As time has been saved, the artist could do some "finetune" then ...

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/6/2020 at 4:04 PM, Synthpopalooza said:

This one here ...

 

https://csdb.dk/release/viewpic.php?id=94235&zoom=1

 

There was a PCIN mode conversion I did of that once.  I used an ANTIC 4 and GTIA 10 conversion in G2F and interleaved.  It flickera, but is mitigated somewhat by the fact that PFx colors on both frames remain solid or can be checkerboarded.

yeah I saw it but, I'm not gonna lie, I think it took a beating, it's one of those that probably can't be converted properly (maybe)

Edited by rensoup

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On 8/8/2020 at 10:41 PM, emkay said:

The colorization isn't real. Some of the pictures show more than 28 colors.

You're not making any sense... all the pics labelled as multicolor are 16 colors. You can download the prg for most of them and run it on a real machine.

 

Screenshots were taken on emulators and may have some effects applied to them which would bump up the number of colors

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