mr_me Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, MrPix said: ...but they can remove a TM name and replace it with their own. Is that correct? My understanding is that without collectorvisions permission doing that is a form of trademark infringement itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 minute ago, nick3092 said: The best I can summarize it in short is they got Ben Heck to make a portable, then used it to claim the name/trademark, then started attacking fan sites. This was at least 2-3 years ago, but my recollection how it went down. The way I remember it was Ben Heck had already made the portable on his own and they found out about it and used it to claim their trademark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 minute ago, ColecoJoe said: The way I remember it was Ben Heck had already made the portable on his own and they found out about it and used it to claim their trademark. That may be. I fully admit my exact recollection is a bit hazy. It just involved him, his portable, and Ben recreating the logo. Somehow Cardillo capitalized on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 minute ago, nick3092 said: That may be. I fully admit my exact recollection is a bit hazy. It just involved him, his portable, and Ben recreating the logo. Somehow Cardillo capitalized on that. Yeah they did ask him for the logo and ben gave it to them. I believe Ben posts about it in the TPR thread I posted above. ahh .. well here is where it start, from Ben himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPix Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 27 minutes ago, mr_me said: Is that correct? My understanding is that without collectorvisions permission doing that is a form of trademark infringement itself. Nope. That said, I've gone and informed myself since first commenting, and this Cardillo guy seems to be trying to adopt an expired trademark, and doing it ALL WRONG. Like, messed it up at every single opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 12 minutes ago, MrPix said: Nope. That said, I've gone and informed myself since first commenting, and this Cardillo guy seems to be trying to adopt an expired trademark, and doing it ALL WRONG. Like, messed it up at every single opportunity. Yup. When he took the trademark at first, it was sketchy. But then suddenly he started cracking down on the community and fan sites. That's when the issues started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 16 minutes ago, MrPix said: Nope http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/ReversePassing-Off.aspx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPix Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Well, huh. It's education all round this evening I'll ask my business law attorney before I comment my nonsensical opinions in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, mr_me said: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/ReversePassing-Off.aspx Yeah. That makes sense. It's not like I could buy a Chevy and rebrand it a Nick and sell it. Which is why it's BS that CV is trying to claim they aren't in bed with Cardillo. They had to agree to let him rebrand. But they are denying that. Edited July 4, 2020 by nick3092 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingus Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, nick3092 said: It's not like I could buy a Chevy and rebrand it a Nick and sell it. Have you seen the 2020 Nick? I'm thinking about getting one! Don't be a sucker, that's just a rebranded Chevy! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPix Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, nick3092 said: Which is why it's BS that CV is trying to claim they aren't in bed with Cardillo. They had to agree to let him rebrand. But they are denying that. They might be using it as a lever to initiate action for reverse passing off, as a wedge action to initiate a USPTO review of the TM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 16 minutes ago, mingus said: Have you seen the 2020 Nick? I'm thinking about getting one! Don't be a sucker, that's just a rebranded Chevy! I'm a fan of the older 1970s Nick. But I'm biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 There is another thread on this: My bet is that one way or another the two threads would derail/become-hostile and end up being locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 11 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said: My bet is that one way or another the two threads would derail/become-hostile and end up being locked. It wouldn't be AtariAge without a good old fashioned lockdown! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, ColecoJoe said: It wouldn't be AtariAge without a good old fashioned lockdown! No, I don't think AA is bad at all, but a certain breed of Coleco threads are a tad different (less lenient in a manner of speaking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 14 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said: There is another thread on this: My bet is that one way or another the two threads would derail/become-hostile and end up being locked. I knew about said thread and so. But I know not everyone follows both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 hour ago, nick3092 said: I knew about said thread and so. But I know not everyone follows both. So far CollectorVision stated it was just a simple order, no strings attached, they have not commented about the rebranding piece yet. The Cardillo guy is likely not in "plates/bezels" manufacturing and installation business so he has to contract someone to print/produce the new front plates and maybe even some changes in the BIOS to remove/alter the CollectorVision copyrights/TMs. I doubt he can do it himself, so he must pay someone else to productivize the rebranding which costs money, so will the Coleco version of the Phoenix say cost 50US$ more? What would the support/warranty look like? Stuff like BIOS updates for the occasional incompatibility, case replacement in case of a crack, replacement units for manufacturing defects etc.... I don't think CollectorVision is "in bed" with him but at the same time if they are not agreeing to helping out a little then the Cardillo guy is not really thinking this through as he needs them for the post-sale support/warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said: So far CollectorVision stated it was just a simple order, no strings attached, they have not commented about the rebranding piece yet. The Cardillo guy is likely not in "plates/bezels" manufacturing and installation business so he has to contract someone to print/produce the new front plates and maybe even some changes in the BIOS to remove/alter the CollectorVision copyrights/TMs. I doubt he can do it himself, so he must pay someone else's to productivize the rebranding which costs money, so will the Coleco version of the Phoenix say cost 50US$ more? What would the support/warranty look like? Stuff like BIOS updates for the occasional incompatibility, case replacement in case of a crack, replacement units for manufacturing defects etc.... I don't think CollectorVision is "in bed" with him but at the same time if they are not agreeing to helping out a little the Cardillo guy is not really thinking this through as he needs them for the post-sale support/warranty. Time will tell. If he's sells a single unit with the firmware and name plates changed to ColecoVision, then CollectorVision is in bed with him. Which is what the press release is implying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eebuckeye Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Only 50 units seems very odd to me.. maybe they bought an initial 50 but plan to buy more if they sell out, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loafer Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Personally the 50 amount tells me he just wants them for a future trade show for sale or to sell on their site. Yes it probably doesn’t hurt their brand ownership to do so, it’s exposure and keeps them relevant. maybe we will be blessed with another awesome attended show they managed from a few years ago lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Well. We are operating off what CV tells us. They say Cardillo bought 50. How do we know? 50 seems like a low number for them to sell. Maybe it's actually 100. Maybe more. CV is not a publicity held Corp. they don't have to tell us so we have no clue. They do operate oddly. Retrolucid/JF tends to pretend to be the face of the company. But when you ask him stuff, 95% of the time he will tell you to contact Toby or Brian directly. Instead of asking them to weigh in on their own. Which you would expect from a company working together. I shouldn't have to seek out others when someone is speaking for them. My 2c. And I'm not anti CV. I bought a Phoenix and several games before the Phoenix from them. I just question their operation and business strategy in general.v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Loafer said: Personally the 50 amount tells me he just wants them for a future trade show for sale or to sell on their site. Yes it probably doesn’t hurt their brand ownership to do so, it’s exposure and keeps them relevant. maybe we will be blessed with another awesome attended show they managed from a few years ago lol 50 systems at 199 each is about 10K US$, in a way it's not the worst showing of wanting to take some risk with this "new" Coleco console by the Cardillo guy. The branding itself is the messy part imho, it's hard to judge if the Phoenix, had it been allowed to be Coleco branded since the beginning, would have sold more ... the Cardillo guy has not shown the marketing skills required to use properly the Coleco name (although when it was announced that the RetroVGS would have been the Coleco Chameleon in a weird way it kind of "made sense"). So told and businesswise assuming CollectorVision and Opcode and Matthew Hagerty and TPR manage to enable it, it seems there's a good chance the official Coleco branding could give the Phoenix + related licensed enhancements (SGM, F18A etc..) a chance beyond the current trickle. It needs to be told as a success story that CollectorVision managed to plan, manufacture and distribute an F18A enhanced and HDMI capable ColecoVision and SGM compatible console that works with HDMI TV sets ... that alone is a hell of an achievement and I believe they deserve the chance to take it a notch up and try with the Coleco name. The enabling factors as I see them are CollectorVision for the Phoenix itself and actually a few games (technically if it works out CollectorVision could become the actual HW branch of ColecoVision), Opcode for the SGM part and SGM enabled games, Matthew Hagerty for the F18A core and TPR for being allowed anew to freely promote ColecoVision stuff on his website with the ColecoVision logo and all (and promote and handle marketing) .... maybe ... just maybe the 1K current sales figures stands a chance to get to 10K or 50K ... I mean according to Bill Loguidice AtGames sells way way more than that regularly at every holiday season so it should be in the realm of possibilities. It's purely speculation on my part, my very own OG ColecoVision has a faulty video circuit and can only show me tinges of brownish/yellow as of now so it's been under mothballs until I have a little time to figure out what went wrong but as this stands there's literally no other modern HDMI solution supporting OG ColecoVision carts AND controllers aside the Phoenix .... and if that is allowed to become the ColecoVision++ (or whatever the name ends up being ... please Cardillo do not screw that up during the rebranding) it is not bad, is it? Maybe the Cardillo guy does not deserve the Phoenix and maybe RWB deserves to loose the ColecoVision TM, at the same time it seems both could take quite some time and it could be better to try to make it work ... but I am not in a position to make decisions like that so ... just my .02! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphro72 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said: 50 systems at 199 each is about 10K US$, in a way it's not the worst showing of wanting to take some risk with this "new" Coleco console by the Cardillo guy. The branding itself is the messy part imho, it's hard to judge if the Phoenix, had it been allowed to be Coleco branded since the beginning, would have sold more ... the Cardillo guy has not shown the marketing skills required to use properly the Coleco name (although when it was announced that the RetroVGS would have been the Coleco Chameleon in a weird way it kind of "made sense"). So told and businesswise assuming CollectorVision and Opcode and Matthew Hagerty and TPR manage to enable it, it seems there's a good chance the official Coleco branding could give the Phoenix + related licensed enhancements (SGM, F18A etc..) a chance beyond the current trickle. It needs to be told as a success story that CollectorVision managed to plan, manufacture and distribute an F18A enhanced and HDMI capable ColecoVision and SGM compatible console that works with HDMI TV sets ... that alone is a hell of an achievement and I believe they deserve the chance to take it a notch up and try with the Coleco name. The enabling factors as I see them are CollectorVision for the Phoenix itself and actually a few games (technically if it works out CollectorVision could become the actual HW branch of ColecoVision), Opcode for the SGM part and SGM enabled games, Matthew Hagerty for the F18A core and TPR for being allowed anew to freely promote ColecoVision stuff on his website with the ColecoVision logo and all (and promote and handle marketing) .... maybe ... just maybe the 1K current sales figures stands a chance to get to 10K or 50K ... I mean according to Bill Loguidice AtGames sells way way more than that regularly at every holiday season so it should be in the realm of possibilities. It's purely speculation on my part, my very own OG ColecoVision has a faulty video circuit and can only show me tinges of brownish/yellow as of now so it's been under mothballs until I have a little time to figure out what went wrong but as this stands there's literally no other modern HDMI solution supporting OG ColecoVision carts AND controllers aside the Phoenix .... and if that is allowed to become the ColecoVision++ (or whatever the name ends up being ... please Cardillo do not screw that up during the rebranding) it is not bad, is it? Maybe the Cardillo guy does not deserve the Phoenix and maybe RWB deserves to loose the ColecoVision TM, at the same time it seems both could take quite some time and it could be better to try to make it work ... but I am not in a position to make decisions like that so ... just my .02! The problem I have with comparing AtGames units to the Phoenix is AtGames units are cheap ready to go "toys" so they make good gifts as you just plug and play them. The Phoenix is a fairly pricey console with a lot more going on with it and currently you need some "know how" to play games with it and sometimes some know how to even make it work on your tv. Don't get me wrong, I love my Phoenix but I think a better comparison would be between the Phoenix and Analogue systems as they appeal to more the same clientele. I would love to see the Phoenix get bigger and blow up so that the guys could spend more time polishing the Colecovision and 2600 cores (and possibly work on more). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) I don't know how many colecovision flashbacks sold but Atgames didn't go back for an additional run like they continuously do with the atari flashbacks. And Analogue customers don't care so much about branding they just want something that works properly. Edited July 4, 2020 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 10 hours ago, phoenixdownita said: 50 systems at 199 each is about 10K US$, in a way it's not the worst showing of wanting to take some risk with this "new" Coleco console by the Cardillo guy. I highly doubt Cardillo is paying retail prices, I'm sure he got some kind of volume discount. There is no way he would buy them for retail price, then turn around and sell them for higher than retail. Who would pay more for the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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