Collectorvision and Coleco?

[Tron Unit]

On 7/2/2020 at 1:24 PM, Bmack36 said:

There is no "teaming" up on this. Coleco bought some consoles from us to resell, but there is no licensing or anything like.

I just don’t understand why you would sell to the already knowing unfriendly competition who is no doubt going to copy it for their own nefarious marketing purposes under the Coleco brand.  That Chris whathisfucking name is a sonofabitch.  I wouldn’t give him the time of day.  

[Swami]

19 hours ago, mr_me said:

What I suspect happened is rwb/coleco trademarked the titles of a bunch of the video games whose titles haven't been used for a while; just like they did with the coleco trademark; that's what they do.  And they gave that list to atgames and said this is what we have.

Just never seen any evidence of it. 

[mr_me]

You can see on uspto.gov, coleco holdings registered the zaxxon trademark in 2012.  And then in 2013 sega took it back.

Edited July 5, 2020 by mr_me

[128Kgames]

Not sure why CollectorVision would allow Coleco, Cardillo, River West Brands or whatever they hell they are calling themselves to order or pre-order anything from them in the fist place.  I have to say I am very surprised at this revelation. Very surprised. 

[Swami]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

You can see on uspto.gov, coleco holdings registered the zaxxon trademark in 2012.  And then in 2013 sega took it back.

If you go here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/529860/ColecoVision_Flashback/

You see 40 games in a Dec. 27, 2014 ColecoVision collection, including Zaxxon, with the message: Coleco®, ColecoVision®, and ColecoVision® Flashback® are registered trademarks of Coleco Holdings LLC. All rights reserved. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

 

Then, in 2018, Coleco Holdings was going to include 20-30 games on the Phoenix along with with the ColecoVision label for a licensing fee of $10 per console.

 

Also, I'm not sure why Flashback would be a registered trademark of Coleco Holdings. 

[mr_me]

And no mention of copyright owners.

[1980gamer]

8 hours ago, 128Kgames said:

Not sure why CollectorVision would allow Coleco, Cardillo, River West Brands or whatever they hell they are calling themselves to order or pre-order anything from them in the fist place.  I have to say I am very surprised at this revelation. Very surprised. 

First, how would you stop them from buying them?  If they wanted to get X number units, they would.

Second, with them buying X number of units, the second run is happening.  Maybe it would have someday? But it is certainly happening now.

Third, it is near impossible to police the actions of others.  What I am saying is:  Several years ago, the company I was working for was invited to bid on a VA contract.

We didn't make the printer they needed but as an American Company and the Buy American Act.  We put in an outrageous bid, knowing we would lose, but to stay active so we would continue to be contacted in the future.

Well, it was a surprise when we won the bid.  Oops.  However, it was so high, we simply purchased X brand printer from Korea and put a sticker over the name/model number on the Box and Printer.

Because we manufactured >80 of the product we sold, it was legal.  The X brand was not hurt.  Sales spiked for them!  And we made $600 per unit.

Wonder why the defense budget is so high even during peace times....?

 

So, from my point of view...  They could acquire the systems and find a way to rebrand them anyway.  

It would be very difficult for Collectorvision to prevent it, even with legal action.  Yes, I think they could / would win at some point, but be long drained of resources before that happened.

WE have the power to not BUY a single unit from "Coleco".

Yes, it may strengthen their claim on the Coleco name, but with the products they have already put out, that ship has long sailed.

 

Let some of the big guys go after "Coleco" when they release other peoples (c) software.  Maybe they go away forever

 

OR maybe they struck a deal for 10's of thousands of units and are going to be rich!  Then I would say...  Good for you!

Now they have the resources to create all the cores we wanted etc. 

 

I guess my point of view is... RWB has the Name Coleco and it sucks.  But it is done and I think all concerned parties have adapted to this already.

 

Do I wish someone like Team Pixelboy or Opcode etc. had grabbed it first... Of course. ( or would they be the enemy now? )

[128Kgames]

7 hours ago, 1980gamer said:

First, how would you stop them from buying them?  If they wanted to get X number units, they would.

Second, with them buying X number of units, the second run is happening.  Maybe it would have someday? But it is certainly happening now.

Third, it is near impossible to police the actions of others.  What I am saying is:  Several years ago, the company I was working for was invited to bid on a VA contract.

We didn't make the printer they needed but as an American Company and the Buy American Act.  We put in an outrageous bid, knowing we would lose, but to stay active so we would continue to be contacted in the future.

Well, it was a surprise when we won the bid.  Oops.  However, it was so high, we simply purchased X brand printer from Korea and put a sticker over the name/model number on the Box and Printer.

Because we manufactured >80 of the product we sold, it was legal.  The X brand was not hurt.  Sales spiked for them!  And we made $600 per unit.

Wonder why the defense budget is so high even during peace times....?

 

So, from my point of view...  They could acquire the systems and find a way to rebrand them anyway.  

It would be very difficult for Collectorvision to prevent it, even with legal action.  Yes, I think they could / would win at some point, but be long drained of resources before that happened.

WE have the power to not BUY a single unit from "Coleco".

Yes, it may strengthen their claim on the Coleco name, but with the products they have already put out, that ship has long sailed.

 

Let some of the big guys go after "Coleco" when they release other peoples (c) software.  Maybe they go away forever

 

OR maybe they struck a deal for 10's of thousands of units and are going to be rich!  Then I would say...  Good for you!

Now they have the resources to create all the cores we wanted etc. 

 

I guess my point of view is... RWB has the Name Coleco and it sucks.  But it is done and I think all concerned parties have adapted to this already.

 

Do I wish someone like Team Pixelboy or Opcode etc. had grabbed it first... Of course. ( or would they be the enemy now? )

Well, let's break this down, shall we?

 

1. Order from RWB, Coleco, or Voldemort himself for 50 units comes in: sorry, not for sale, order refused don't even think about it.  Companies can refuse to sell to anyone at anytime, if they choose to do so.  Especially after what happened the last time with the "Coleco" version of Sydney Hunter...

 

2. So the second run only happens if you make a deal with the devil?  And I don't mean the really cool Tom Ellis devil, I mean the guy with the horns, tail and red skin devil.  For me?  Hard pass, sorry, second run doesn't happen.  But to be fair, I am not a business man trying to get a product out there and make a profit.  But still, I like my soul just the way it is, thank you. 

 

3. Well to be honest three is really moot if # 1 never happens, unless you think RWB is going to start using shell companies to buy a lot of 50 consoles from CollectorVision.  Personally?  I don't think that's going to happen. 

 

Its real simple: don't go down to the crossroads, don't bury a possession in the ground and don't make any kind of deal with the crossroads demon if you ignore the first two things in the first place. 

[phoenixdownita]

8 hours ago, 1980gamer said:

....

Third, it is near impossible to police the actions of others. 

....

Such a slippery slope you're going down here.

I guess for you it is fine then if anyone starts to copy the phoenix straight from here:

https://github.com/CollectorVision/Phoenix-Colecovision

and build their own version because, as you say, it's so hard to police anything.

 

Or the SGM portion which has now all public equations (well it was already in MiSTer to be fair):

https://github.com/CollectorVision/Phoenix-Colecovision/blob/master/colecovision.vhd#L626

 

Or the F18A etc .... etc....

 

You are right that in countries where IP laws are a joke one can get away with anything but not in a lot of the rest of the world, that's not how it works.

 

If you take the stance that because it's hard to police then anything should go .... 

 

 

[Greg2600]

Perhaps CollectorVision just didn't want a "problem" with Cardillo?  If you think their product doesn't infringe on his Coleco copyrights, think again, with the "right lawyer."

Edited July 6, 2020 by Greg2600

[youki]

1 hour ago, 128Kgames said:

Especially after what happened the last time with the "Coleco" version of Sydney Hunter...

What happened with the coleco version of Sydney Hunter?

[Ikrananka]

3 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Perhaps CollectorVision just didn't want a "problem" with Cardillo?  If you think their product doesn't infringe on his Coleco copyrights, think again, with the "right lawyer."

He doesn't own ANY copyright to original Coleco related items.  He only owns a few trademarks, none of which were used with the Phoenix.

[1980gamer]

1 hour ago, 128Kgames said:

Well, let's break this down, shall we?

 

1. Order from RWB, Coleco, or Voldemort himself for 50 units comes in: sorry, not for sale, order refused don't even think about it.  Companies can refuse to sell to anyone at anytime, if they choose to do so.  Especially after what happened the last time with the "Coleco" version of Sydney Hunter...

 

2. So the second run only happens if you make a deal with the devil?  And I don't mean the really cool Tom Ellis devil, I mean the guy with the horns, tail and red skin devil.  For me?  Hard pass, sorry, second run doesn't happen.  But to be fair, I am not a business man trying to get a product out there and make a profit.  But still, I like my soul just the way it is, thank you. 

 

3. Well to be honest three is really moot if # 1 never happens, unless you think RWB is going to start using shell companies to buy a lot of 50 consoles from CollectorVision.  Personally?  I don't think that's going to happen. 

 

Its real simple: don't go down to the crossroads, don't bury a possession in the ground and don't make any kind of deal with the crossroads demon if you ignore the first two things in the first place. 

WOW...

 

"1. RWB tries to order 50... Refused."

He creates a few email addresses order a few units each.  Send them to acquaintances...  That cannot be stopped!

If it were 1,000 units. It wouldn't happen.  But we are not talking those numbers.

 

2. I was always assuming that #1 happened as I stated.  The easy work around.

I already have a Collectorvision system. For me it didn't matter If a second run happened or not.  However, other Colecovision fans do not.  Now, they will.  Taking the good with the bad.  LIFE happens.

 

3. Shell Companies.  LOL  for 50 units.

My point was completely missed.  Bad people do bad things.   Good people should be educated and avoid the bad.

That is why I said WE should not buy these units from RWB! 

 

I don't pretend to know what deal was struck, IF a deal was struck?

 

I just know, it is easy to put a sticker on a piece of plastic.  Maybe even take the time and effort to change the firmware to look like your own.

 

The risk to Coleco is minimal.  Yes, that SUCKS.  But in legal terms, IF the bios in collectorvision system uses any part of the colecovision IP.  They would go into any dispute with dirty hands.

It would be very difficult for them to prove harm.

 

IF RWB/Coleco was brazen enough to try to produce thousands of units without consent.  It would be easier to go after them.

Maybe not so much Collectorvision ( again, I don't know the BIOS history ) but for OPCODE certainly.

 

AND if they were planing to do such a thing, they wouldn't need 50 units to do so.  

 

So, in conclusion....

Say RWB did buy 50 units.  Collectorvision got paid, Opcode got paid etc.  Where is the harm?

Do they strengthen the Hold on Coleco TM?  Not really.  They have released many items already branded.

 

So, for me, I simply will not buy one of these.  How about you?

 

I will not buy a knock-off SGM either.

I will not knowingly buy a bootleg cart. etc.

 

I own my ROM's  

 

I was simply stating an opinion based on life experience.

 

[1980gamer]

1 hour ago, phoenixdownita said:

Such a slippery slope you're going down here.

I guess for you it is fine then if anyone starts to copy the phoenix straight from here:

https://github.com/CollectorVision/Phoenix-Colecovision

and build their own version because, as you say, it's so hard to police anything.

 

Or the SGM portion which has now all public equations (well it was already in MiSTer to be fair):

https://github.com/CollectorVision/Phoenix-Colecovision/blob/master/colecovision.vhd#L626

 

Or the F18A etc .... etc....

 

You are right that in countries where IP laws are a joke one can get away with anything but not in a lot of the rest of the world, that's not how it works.

 

If you take the stance that because it's hard to police then anything should go .... 

 

 

Policing was from Collectorvision perspective.

Anyone can order a console or 2 or 3...

How would they know the purchaser?  Hey Freddy, here is some $$ order 2 Black and 2 Adam versions for me.  Thanks.  Steve, do the same.  8 down in 10 seconds.

 

Defending IP is completely different.  I was guessing RWB had deeper pockets than Collectorvision?  But I would donate to the fight if asked!

 

Sadly IP is not universally protected. AND trademarks are given pretty willy-nilly.  Celebs. trademark children's names or likenesses etc.  Not how that is supposed to work.

 

[128Kgames]

53 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Perhaps CollectorVision just didn't want a "problem" with Cardillo?  If you think their product doesn't infringe on his Coleco copyrights, think again, with the "right lawyer."

It doesn't, the ColecoVision, like the 2600, was made with off the shelf parts.  BIOS code I am not talking about, but I assume the Phoenix uses its own proprietary code.  By "right lawyer" I guessing you mean having enough money to have enough of them or a team to grind your opponent into dust?  Yes, that I would agree with.

38 minutes ago, 1980gamer said:

WOW...

 

"1. RWB tries to order 50... Refused."

He creates a few email addresses order a few units each.  Send them to acquaintances...  That cannot be stopped!

If it were 1,000 units. It wouldn't happen.  But we are not talking those numbers.

 

2. I was always assuming that #1 happened as I stated.  The easy work around.

I already have a Collectorvision system. For me it didn't matter If a second run happened or not.  However, other Colecovision fans do not.  Now, they will.  Taking the good with the bad.  LIFE happens.

 

3. Shell Companies.  LOL  for 50 units.

My point was completely missed.  Bad people do bad things.   Good people should be educated and avoid the bad.

That is why I said WE should not buy these units from RWB! 

 

I don't pretend to know what deal was struck, IF a deal was struck?

 

I just know, it is easy to put a sticker on a piece of plastic.  Maybe even take the time and effort to change the firmware to look like your own.

 

The risk to Coleco is minimal.  Yes, that SUCKS.  But in legal terms, IF the bios in collectorvision system uses any part of the colecovision IP.  They would go into any dispute with dirty hands.

It would be very difficult for them to prove harm.

 

IF RWB/Coleco was brazen enough to try to produce thousands of units without consent.  It would be easier to go after them.

Maybe not so much Collectorvision ( again, I don't know the BIOS history ) but for OPCODE certainly.

 

AND if they were planing to do such a thing, they wouldn't need 50 units to do so.  

 

So, in conclusion....

Say RWB did buy 50 units.  Collectorvision got paid, Opcode got paid etc.  Where is the harm?

Do they strengthen the Hold on Coleco TM?  Not really.  They have released many items already branded.

 

So, for me, I simply will not buy one of these.  How about you?

 

I will not buy a knock-off SGM either.

I will not knowingly buy a bootleg cart. etc.

 

I own my ROM's  

 

I was simply stating an opinion based on life experience.

 

Really?  You think he's going to go through the trouble of creating a few email addresses and ordering a few to send to friends?  (assuming he actually has any).  I highly doubt this was the case. 

 

I have a Phoenix as well, but if it meant 50 had to be sold to Voldemort to get one?  Sorry, hard pass for me.  There is no good here, its taking the bad with the bad. 

 

"Good people should be educated and avoid the bad."  Re-read what you just wrote.  Yes, good people should avoid the bad.  Don't sell to them in the first place. 

 

I don't know CollectorVision's business model, or how deep their pockets run.  Suffice it to say when the poop hit the fan years ago people were ready to throw in the towel and close up shop to avoid being on the receiving end of RWB and any legal action.  I'm thinking should Voldemort look to do something nefarious, it would not go well for anyone opposing him.  I have no idea what the parent companies earnings are or their overall worth. 

 

I wouldn't presume to speak for Opcode and what their take is on this deal, nor do I know what their agreement was on the Phoenix and the SGM licensing. 

 

Would I buy one?  I already own one, I have no need for another.  Would I buy a Coleco branded one?  No, I don't feed trolls. 

 

I have already spoken my peace on knock-off SGM's more than once, so I have nothing to say about that.

[1980gamer]

So I am basing my assumptions on pre-Pheonix drama when the system was almost Coleco.

 

Back then, it was obvious that the system would not be supported IF RWB had it's hands on this thing at all.

 

I am simply stating, we do not know how these consoles were acquired.  To say don't sell someone something is impossible.

Hey Airline, don't sell tickets to hijackers.  

 

I get you hate this guy.  I don't know him outside of reputation.  I know some crazy stuff went down. 

 

I just know WE don't have a clue what has taking place.  I feel you have already convicted Collectorvision of crimes against humanity.

 

I am simply saying anyone selling something to the public, cannot prevent unwanted buyers.

 

Ask Donald Trump if he wanted the rally tickets sold to non supporters?  It was pretty funny though.  However, he got paid and got a lot of press coverage for it. WIN.

 

The problem here is we are splitting hairs.

I think we are 99% in agreement but are wasting energy on 1%

 

I am even very willing to say, a deal was made and Collectorvision was willing to deal with the backlash.  IF that is in fact what happened.

But I don't know that and no one outside of the buyer/seller know the details. (at least for now).

 

I think I am optimistic?  I try to give the benefit of the doubt.  I have been burned.  Thanks Lance!  LOL 

 

I believe Collectorvision has a lot to lose and not much to gain from a deal with RWB/Coleco.

 

Again only my opinion.

I know I am not buying one.  I am guessing you will not either.

 

 

 

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, 128Kgames said:

It doesn't, the ColecoVision, like the 2600, was made with off the shelf parts.  BIOS code I am not talking about, but I assume the Phoenix uses its own proprietary code.  By "right lawyer" I guessing you mean having enough money to have enough of them or a team to grind your opponent into dust?  Yes, that I would agree with.

Really?  You think he's going to go through the trouble of creating a few email addresses and ordering a few to send to friends?  (assuming he actually has any).  I highly doubt this was the case. 

 

...

 

2 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Perhaps CollectorVision just didn't want a "problem" with Cardillo?  If you think their product doesn't infringe on his Coleco copyrights, think again, with the "right lawyer."

The bios/firmware in the colecovision is still protected by copyright.  The owner of that copyright is not RWB/Coleco (it might actually be Atari SA).  Any patents texas instruments or zilog had on the processors expired many years ago.  RWB/Coleco has no colecovision copyrights or patents; the only thing RWB/Coleco has is the trademark on the name.  So as long as you don't prominently put the name "coleco" on it, RWB/Coleco can't say anything.  Legally you can still say it's colecovision compatible and put it on the packaging.  Where RWB/Coleco might have a claim is a trademark on the rainbow text that's used on the Phoenix label.  It's possible.

Edited July 6, 2020 by mr_me

[Miner Jumpman]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:59 PM, Loafer said:

Let me see if I got this right.  Carlito/Coleco order some Phoenix consoles.  Do some people actually expect a company to respond "sorry we won't sell to you"??   I know that's not what most of the naysayers here are saying but some are!

 

I can expect that people want nothing to do with Carlito or their org but you can't expect a small hobby business company to refuse sales, that's insane.  I think even a minor deal from Collectorvision allowing a rebranding after a sale is ok, they need to move units, this is how you do that, by selling them and if this leads to more Phoenix runs, that's also a good thing.  This could be helpful to Collectorvision too, maybe they can actually use the odd use of the word Coleco without feeling like they need to check with their lawyer every time LOL

 

I get it if it's a merger or JF/Toby is rebranding everything with the name Coleco now, that can piss people off but let's not presume too much

One hundred percent on the money!

 

The best thing that can happen for Coleco fans is to sell more Phoenix consoles. If they bring in more people, the prices will drop for games, which will bring in even more people.

 

I understand past difficulties, but feuding with Coleco doesn't benefit fans.

[Tron Unit]

If it was strictly about money then they would still be taking more orders for the Phoenix and doing more runs.  Orders for the second run have closed.  That’s it or so they say.  Still scratching my head that they will sell to Cardildo.  That’s like sleeping with the enemy.  If I had heard about this before placing my orders I might have reconsidered.