Gauging interest for the IntyBASIC Contest 2020

[+nanochess]

Hi guys.

 

Just noticed the last IntyBASIC Contest was ran by 2018. So it looks like is time again to do the contest.

 

Any opinions about it? Suggestions for change of rules? Time frame? Our fellow programmers have time? COVID-19 allows to program or quarantine has kids over our heads trying to extract our eyeballs?

 

Looking forward to your comments.

 

[+Steve Jones]

i think it's a great idea, lots of cool games come from every contest.

[carlsson]

Good idea. Previously it was discussed a competition within a certain theme or other limitations to make it different. I understand that the first compo was a way to test and promote the compiler as it still was in a fairly early stage. The second compo was to show how it has matured. Now we have plenty of commercial grade games indeed developed with IntyBASIC, from everywhere around the world including developers we don't know the names of, so there is little to prove anymore.

 

Time wise, if it begins now it probably has to run a bit into 2021 unless we want it to be a fast competition more for fun & showcasing concepts, than reasonably playable games. I understand that every game would need additional improvement and polish if it was to go commercial anyway, but the shorter time period between start and finish, the more sketch like entries might become.

 

As you know, I am partial to the CSSCGC but also realize that the Intellivision scene might not be amused (or even ready) for intentionally crappy games. I saw the C64 people just had a craptastic compo, in their case limited to 4K binaries where games were expected to be humorous, not necessarily crap. It allows for less effort, but might also appear pointless: why spend hours, days or up to a couple of weeks on something you don't seriously mean to be playable and slick looking?

[fsuinnc]

Sounds like fun. Maybe it would motivate me to do something other than work and drink. (maybe) 

It does seem like the contests always bring in some new folks and new ideas.

[+cmadruga]

I think contests are needed to keep the community engaged and growing.

Contests bring encouragement, recognition and visibility if well managed.

 

To the point that Carlsson was making about the evolution of the scene and how previous competitions connected to the different maturity stages at each point...

I think we may have reached a point where there is a critical mass of coders that seem to be at different points in their journey.

So if that's the case - and I would normally try to confirm it through some sort of interest check or survey - we could consider more than 1 competition category.

 

Here is an idea

 

"Rising star" category:

- Objective would be to encourage folks wanting to get their feet wet. So, folks with published games or any known advanced works would not be eligible. On the other hand, rookies would be invited and encouraged to participate.

- Take some skeleton code, and build something based off it.

- One or more experienced coders would be available to support competitors. Not to do their work for them, but to answer questions and provide encouragement.

 

"Veteran" category:

- Open to anyone not competing in other categories.

- Need some technical limitations to level the playing field. 

 

"Expert" category:

- Open to anyone.

- Sky is the limit. No technical restrictions. 

- An ambitious technical challenge could be put on the table.

- Submissions could be demos or prototypes, and not necessarily games.

 

Anyway, those are just some ideas.

[carlsson]

Ok, I saw that the two previous competitions ran between July 1, 2015 and January 1, 2016 (6 months) respective February 1, 2018 and September 1, 2018 (7 months). Today is July 8 so perhaps 6 months would be enough after all.

 

Something that strikes me is that both times, groups were allowed but it seems only single person entries were submitted, some with a bit of help from others. Perhaps this time groups could be encouraged, even a category on its own and then you decide how to form those groups. There may be newbies to programming who are very good at level design or gameplay testing, and with the right conditions group efforts could come much further than individuals.

 

As for limitations, previously it was said that only certain ASM extensions were allowed. If there is an expert category, that should probably be lifted so any inlined code or modules can be included if desired.

 

I was thinking about genres, if there something in particular the Intellivision is lacking in, but I think pretty much all genres are covered thanks to the vast supply of homebrew/aftermarket games. One possible theme/prerequisite could be games making good use of the keypad compared to action games mostly using the disc and fire buttons. I know a good deal of games already utilize the keypad but I feel there could be even more of those?

[Zendocon]

Another contest would be good.

[+cmadruga]

53 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Ok, I saw that the two previous competitions ran between July 1, 2015 and January 1, 2016 (6 months) respective February 1, 2018 and September 1, 2018 (7 months). Today is July 8 so perhaps 6 months would be enough after all.

I don't know, 6 months feels like a looooong time.

 

53 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Something that strikes me is that both times, groups were allowed but it seems only single person entries were submitted, some with a bit of help from others. Perhaps this time groups could be encouraged, even a category on its own and then you decide how to form those groups. There may be newbies to programming who are very good at level design or gameplay testing, and with the right conditions group efforts could come much further than individuals.

I got dibs on @carlsson, @skywaffle, @TIX, @artrag and @nanochess. We are finally doing Metal Gear on the Inty. It's a done deal. 

 

Joking!!!

(sort of)

 

[+bhall408]

Teams can work out well -- there were great team efforts seen in the Atari Lynx competition that AtariGamer ran last year. Usually you'd see a division of effort between coding, music, and artwork.

 

As to themes, I'd personally love to see encouragement for ECS/2nd PSG and larger cart sizes.

 

I'd also encourage the games to at some point (either during development, or right before voting) be covered on the @ZeroPage Homebrew twitch/youtube channels.

 

If there were to be sponsors, then we'd (Project Argon) be happy to be one of them.

 

Thanks Oscar!

 

[+nanochess]

Thinking on invoking teams for the contest. So asking for opinions from @Nyuundere, @Black_Tiger, @First Spear, @catsfolly , @Kiwi and @CrazyBoss

 

So far I'm making my mind on three ideas:

 

* Standalone production. (no limits, classic contest)

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

* Team production. (production made by two or more people, probably one programmer, one graphist, and one musician).

 

And maybe a themed contest:

 

* Summer theme.

* Space theme.

* Comedy theme.

* Adventure theme.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by nanochess

[carlsson]

First I read that as a prize sum of $5000. ?

 

But yeah, your thoughts are good. In the past few years we've had a few holiday themed games, which also is a possible approach. Games based on obscure or very local traditions might also touch the comedy genre.

[Kiwi]

36 minutes ago, nanochess said:

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

I probably do small production.  I'm horrible with team production stuff.  This limitation would force me to optimize my stuff. 

 

I'm unsure about the theme.  I have virus theme in mind but that might be in poor taste.

[carlsson]

16 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

I have virus theme in mind but that might be in poor taste.

I'd say it depends how generic it is. That is where a crap games compo is handy, as the majority of topics are fine, except the most obvious ones. While I haven't played it, one of the most accomplished ones this year in the CSSCGC would be Corona Capers.

[+cmadruga]

1 hour ago, nanochess said:

Thinking on invoking teams for the contest. So asking for opinions from @Nyuundere, @Black_Tiger, @First Spear, @catsfolly , @Kiwi and @CrazyBoss

 

So far I'm making my mind on three ideas:

 

* Standalone production. (no limits, classic contest)

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

* Team production. (production made by two or more people, probably one programmer, one graphist, and one musician).

 

And maybe a themed contest:

 

* Summer theme.

* Space theme.

* Comedy theme.

* Adventure theme.

 

Excellent.

Would deadlines be the same for all productions?

 

[fsuinnc]

I like the theme ideas.  I also like the idea of team productions. Not sure I would get on a team for fear of not carrying my weight. Is it a team production when people give you code, graphics or music just because they are just really nice?  (I don't have any issue giving credit for the help just wondering what constitutes a team, if it matters)

[First Spear]

Thanks for including me for comment. 

 

I think that there could be a "lightweight class" for projects to fit into the small-k range, and also "unlimited class", giving two winners for two very different kinds of games. I think it would be better to make the game solo-developer instead of team.

[CrazyBoss]

Its great with a new contest. Working in teams might be great, I always have problems to create the music. Graphics is easier cause the Intellivision is frendly, its easy to create "programmers graphics", no need to have great skills, cause its blocky anyway.

 

A 6 months run time feels right too.

 

Make a 4k game, in intybasic might be a hard challenge. But simple games is fun too.

 

[+Tarzilla]

3 hours ago, nanochess said:

Thinking on invoking teams for the contest. So asking for opinions from @Nyuundere, @Black_Tiger, @First Spear, @catsfolly , @Kiwi and @CrazyBoss

 

So far I'm making my mind on three ideas:

 

* Standalone production. (no limits, classic contest)

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

* Team production. (production made by two or more people, probably one programmer, one graphist, and one musician).

 

And maybe a themed contest:

 

* Summer theme.

* Space theme.

* Comedy theme.

* Adventure theme.

 

I like the idea of the Small production category. I'll help judge again.

 

 

[carlsson]

Will version 1.4.2 of the compiler be considered stable enough to be used in the competition? Perhaps it even will get an official release before the announcement?

[decle]

Hmmm, I'd be cautious about over thinking this guys.  Remember that there were a total of 13 and 12 submissions to the previous contests.

 

Whilst I understand the objective of increasing participation by encouraging specialisation, I suspect that adding constraints on entry, such as team membership, will reduce rather than increase submissions.  And having multiple categories will naturally fragment the pool of entries.  Perhaps optional awards such as "Outstanding Noob", "Best Solo Effort" or "How Does That Fit That In There?", if the judges feel an entry is particularly deserving might be better?

 

That said, regardless of what is decided, I had fun last time and I'm interested in entering again.  However, I should note that I feel my 2018 entry was a bit too mainstream, heck even @cmart604 thought it was worthy of comment, and as a consequence I think it got way too many marks in a number of categories.  This is something I would hope to address this time around.

 

Cheers

 

decle

 

[+cmadruga]

A few suggestions based on my reading of some of the communication around the 2018 contest:

 

It may be worth revisiting the scoring system. It felt a little over engineered, with 9 attributes and a 1-10 scale for each. 

I would suggest reducing the number of attributes (stick to objective vs subjective ones), simplifying the scale, and adding some objective descriptions of what "poor", "average" and "good" look like.

 

Also, personally I don't think the non-submission of source code should drive any scoring penalties. This makes the whole thing intimidating to beginners. Plus, expert level folks won't necessarily feel inclined to share some of their most impressive techniques. I think it should be completely voluntary.

 

Finally, when looking at some of the feedback provided to participants, I think it's worth striking the right tone. The general tone should be one of encouragement and recognition for the efforts. Words like "pedestrian" and "lackluster" do not belong anywhere. 

Also, I think folks need to be tactful when reacting to submissions made throughout the contest, even if the author would say something like "I would welcome your thoughts". Receiving 10-15 immediate suggestions/requests may seem helpful, but it actually creates pressure to respond, and feels intimidating to anyone considering joining the competition.

[carlsson]

17 hours ago, fsuinnc said:

Is it a team production when people give you code, graphics or music just because they are just really nice?

I think if it is an one-off, you might credit it as external help (just like how Tarzilla drew some better graphics for my still unfinished Alligator Swamp in 2015), rather than a team effort. If you discuss and divide tasks, more or less if the project manager "orders" graphics, music and level designs and then you together assemble it, make adjustments where required etc, it obviously is a team work.

 

Also as time permits, I imagine one individual may be part of multiple teams, optionally with the discretion to not reveal any inner details of another project.

[+Tarzilla]

47 minutes ago, carlsson said:

I think if it is an one-off, you might credit it as external help (just like how Tarzilla drew some better graphics for my still unfinished Alligator Swamp in 2015),

Lol. I totally don't remember that! 

[Nyuundere]

On 7/8/2020 at 3:33 PM, nanochess said:

Thinking on invoking teams for the contest. So asking for opinions from @Nyuundere, @Black_Tiger, @First Spear, @catsfolly , @Kiwi and @CrazyBoss

 

So far I'm making my mind on three ideas:

 

* Standalone production. (no limits, classic contest)

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

* Team production. (production made by two or more people, probably one programmer, one graphist, and one musician).

 

And maybe a themed contest:

 

* Summer theme.

* Space theme.

* Comedy theme.

* Adventure theme.

 

Sounds cool. If anybody wants a musician I'm up for this :3

[TR4SHD4T4]

I'm down. I need a deadline and a reason to do this.

Of the three ideas:

* Standalone production. (no limits, classic contest)

* Small production. (limited to the $5000-$6fff memory area)

* Team production. (production made by two or more people, probably one programmer, one graphist, and one musician).

I'm up for the "Standalone production."

I've seen the previous winners and I effing loved them all. This is fun.