Cleaning floppy disks...a good idea?

[ebiguy]

Hi,

 

I came across this video which puzzles me.

 

 

These are 3 1/2 disks.

In AA forums, I read in several threads that bad or medium quality disks could be damaged just by reading them.

Hence the idea of dumping them with SuperCard Pro or Kryoflux BEFORE trying to read them in a 1050.

 

This guy cleans the disk (not the drive head).

I would think that doing this would definitively destroy bad or medium quality disks.

But the guy says that all the disks work well after cleaning.

Or is this advice OK for 3 1/2 disks but not for 5 1/4 disks?

 

Any opinion @Farb, @DjayBee, @ijor or others with cleaning experience?

[_The Doctor__]

I clean them first if I see discoloration, blotches, or dust... so I don't have a problem with what he is doing.. I do things very lightly though, just enough to clean the stuff off after a couple revolutions, I tend to do two complete revolutions. The ferrous dust, mold, splotches, jacket mites (these smear) are always an issue, they ruin disk or dirty heads very quickly. I the surface is shiny and clean without dust, splotches or smears I back them up as is. If anything is amiss I clean first and let dry. It's really common sense but maybe it should be in the S.O.P. for folks

[ebiguy]

6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

It's really common sense but maybe it should be in the S.O.P. for folks

No, it's definitely not common sense.

The common sense would be that rubbing a disk would probably destroy the disk surface but obviously, this is not true.

So, you are right, it should be written somewhere and, at least in the Atari 8-bit Software Preservation Guide:

http://a8preservation.com/#/guides/diskDumping

Note that there is a warning at the start of this page:

 

Quote

Warning

If a disk is in very poor condition, the dumping process can be very destructive and may leave you with a damaged original and no good dump. There are some tips here to try and help prevent this.

But I did not find any paragraph giving some hints.

BTW, in this page, I think that the method using RespeQt and a Happy or Super Archiver drive should be added. I guess the page is older than the support of ATX in RespeQt.

[cwilbar]

I too have cleaned a number of 5.25" disks (haven't done 3.5" disks yet).  I've used alcohol on a paper towl, spinning the disk by hand while cleaning the disk through the window in the jacket. 

 

While a few disks have left a little brown on the paper towl, it did not destroy any disks (yet).  I have a large lot of C64 disks that had mold.  On some of the moldy ones I wanted to recover I was able to clean the mold/mildew off of most of them just fine.

 

Most are tougher than you'd think.  But there are some that can be rough.  My copy of SubLogic Flight Simulator II shed when I imaged it.... but it was the only disk that shed.  A few other got scratched, but they didn't shed due to deteriorated binders.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

it also should state just like on other rotating media that the cleaning should be from center to edge and edge to center. I do my cleaning by hand, there are plenty of disk cleaning thread here on AA about all of this.

Edited July 19, 2020 by _The Doctor__

[ivop]

28 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

it also should state just like on other rotating media that the cleaning should be from center to edge and edge to center. I do my cleaning by hand, there are plenty of disk cleaning thread here on AA about all of this.

Why from center to edge and back again?

 

Cleaning vinyl records is best done circular, i.e. in the direction the needle follows¹, lightly, to get the dust and (finger) grease out of the grooves. There are special devices and cleaning liquids for that. The difference can be enormous. As if you bought the record just last week. Even some skips can be elimated if it's not a scratch, but just a bump of dirt.

 

I would think, because magnetic media has no grooves, it doesn't matter in which direction you clean it, as long as you don't use too much force or aggressive cleaning products. You don't want to remove the magnetic layer

 

¹ It know a record is a spiral groove, but today I learned there are concentrical records, or those with several end grooves, or sound in the lead-in groove, and even records that needed two evenly spaced needle modules to play stereo. After stereo grooves were invented, the same principle was done once again for quadrophonic records ( Unusual types of gramaphone records ).

Edited July 19, 2020 by ivop

[ijor]

6 hours ago, ebiguy said:

This guy cleans the disk (not the drive head).

I would think that doing this would definitively destroy bad or medium quality disks.

But the guy says that all the disks work well after cleaning.

Or is this advice OK for 3 1/2 disks but not for 5 1/4 disks?

 

In a way, yes. 3.5 and 5.25 disks are completely different, at least in this regard.

 

The two most common problems with old 3.5 disks are mechanical, or that they develop mould for some reason. Cleaning the disk is many times imperative because otherwise it might even not rotate at all. OTOH, 3.5 disks almost never have the problem that we have with some 5.25 disks, that the surface starts tearing from the contact with the head.

Edited July 19, 2020 by ijor

[Keatah]

I purchased an extraordinarily rare disk on ebay. I received it. The surface of the disk looked a little splotched or just smudged. Uh oh.

 

Direct reading of the disk without cleaning would have resulted in a rapid build-up of "stuff" on the head and in the pressure pad. The build-up would have then led to shedding and permanent damage of the oxide layer.

 

I carefully cleaned both sides by hand with a Q-Tip. Carefully rotating the disk and wiping from edge to edge.  Multi-color "stuff" was removed. It is important to use a fluid that will address the contaminant. This could be alcohol or water or soap. Or a mixture of all that. And it is important to use a gentle pressure not much more than what it takes to bend the disk inside its jacket. Multi-color "stuff" was removed.

 

I pre-cleaned the drive head before I started. I read the disk through an imaging program first. And it worked I. I captured all the tracks successfully. The second time I went to read it, it started going bad. When I was done I cleaned the drive head again. In fact I've taken to pre-read and post-read cleanings when working with disks of unknown origin or ones I've had to spiff up.

 

Further examination indicated the oxide and binder were present and undamaged. Looking at the signal strength revealed the field was just getting weak with age; likely exacerbated by a "bad" write decades ago.

 

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

ivop we are not cleaning dirt out of a groove with indentations like a record... the best way to clean vinyl records or phonographic rolls is to either follow the grove with a brush or use a zero residue adhesive to pull all of the dirt and such out... I've even used wood glue in a pinch to make problematic vinyl records sound excellent without hissing or pops when done. This is well known.

-----

a floppy that has damage in the form of a ring or ellipse can be made worse by cleaning the length of the groove, we want to make the smooth good surface as clean as possible and lightly clean the damaged area so as not to remove the material that is still there and around the damage,  we don't want to move that material along the groove disturbing readable data, as pulling debris (ferrous or not) along the groove can make it worse as well as removing more material. Pulling some material out inter-track is tolerated to a degree, pulling material out inter-sector not so much. Ferrous material pulled from one sector stream over the next is not good, but pulled to the void between tracks is usually not an issue

We are less likely to loose meaningful data going from track to track than we are going from sector to sector. The spacing between and the stream are the reasons why.

I have been very successful cleaning disks from hub to edge and back...

The practice of cleaning with the cloth or q-tip(cotton swab) sitting in one spot and turning the disk and then moving it up as if sitting in track zones has all ways yielded poorer results.

Edited July 20, 2020 by _The Doctor__

[ebiguy]

I am not sure what to do if I start a floppy disk preservation session.

Sorry to ask again regarding this topic but I will have a lot of floppies (not mine) to preserve in the next month so I don't want to risk destroying them.

 

Let's say I have an old floppy disk which has not been used for 30 years.

I don't know if the floppy is readable or not.

 

After cleaning the drive head of my Panasonic JU-475, should I

- 1) try to dump the disk to SCP and, if and only if there are some errors, clean the disk.

or

- 2) always clean the disk first and then try to dump the disk to SCP

 

Let me know if solution 1 or 2 should be used.

Thank you.

[+DjayBee]

I have no idea.

Maybe @Farb @toddtmw @remowilliams @Bill Lange can help.

[Keatah]

It’ll depend on the condition of the disk and if it’s smooth. It’s a really fuzzy decision. But I’ve done cleanings the first time around more often than not.

[ijor]

5 hours ago, ebiguy said:

I am not sure what to do if I start a floppy disk preservation session.

Sorry to ask again regarding this topic but I will have a lot of floppies (not mine) to preserve in the next month so I don't want to risk destroying them.

 

Let's say I have an old floppy disk which has not been used for 30 years.

I don't know if the floppy is readable or not.

 

After cleaning the drive head of my Panasonic JU-475, should I

- 1) try to dump the disk to SCP and, if and only if there are some errors, clean the disk.

or

- 2) always clean the disk first and then try to dump the disk to SCP

 

In first place, it is important to note that there is no way to guarantee you will not destroy or physically damage some of the disks. That is always a risk regardless you clean them first or you don't. You should warn the original owners if you consider that is important.

 

I would just dump most disks without cleaning them first, and only clean those that have obvious, visible signs of being extremely dirty. I do think that cleaning, if performed gently and carefully doesn't present a significant risk. Follow Keatah and The Doctor recommendations on how to perform the cleaning.

 

Now, the major issue is those disks that tend to develop grooves and sometimes starting to loose the top binding layer. There is not much you can do in those cases, except to thoroughly clean the heads before and after dumping any "suspicious" disk. Some titles like Zeppelin or Blue Max are among the most "risky",  in this sense.

 

Please dump 5 revolutions per track and, again, include, one extra track (tracks 0-40). It might be reasonable to reduce the number of revolutions to 3 for the most risky disks. But the effectiveness of this depends a lot on the specific software and firmware of the dumping device.

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by ijor

[gilsaluki]

Can floppies be put in an automatic dishwasher machine (rinse cycle)?

[leech]

It's too bad floppy disks aren't like CD roms where you can point a laser beam at it.  I too ended up cleaning mine with a q-tip and 99% isopropyl.  Though someone cautioned me against doing such for some reason, I've cleaned may floppy disks that way in the past.

[_The Doctor__]

going to the extreme...

I hate to even mention this... but heat can help a sticky/shedding disk... you have to have an eye for it... and you need an oven that won't melt the disk(low temp)... there is also a wet disk method...

again this is extreme... when you absolutely gotta have it... you only get one or two shots at it... then stick a fork in it.

there are some threads here on AA and on the web tube..

 

This works on tape and disks...

 

http://www.tape-baking.com/

Edited July 22, 2020 by _The Doctor__

[Farb]

Good advice here.

 

It's also worth mentioning that if you begin to hear harsh scraping or squealing noise develop during the course of a dump, it likely means the head has become dirty. I generally abort the dump in such situations, clean the head and re-try. If you let it continue, you run the risk of the gunk on the head damaging the disk surface as it continues to read.

 

I've had mixed results cleaning the disk surface with isopropyl alcohol. The most important part is to be gentle -- I've seen the disk material come off with too aggressive a cleaning.

[cwilbar]

In addition to Baking, I've heard that people have had success with reel to reel sticky tables using NuFinish (if I'm remember correctly.... the automotive product).

 

Never heard of anyone doing it to diskettes though.

 

[cwilbar]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:38 PM, gilsaluki said:

Can floppies be put in an automatic dishwasher machine (rinse cycle)?

I wouldn't.... and don't see the point anyway....

 

What I've had to clean off of diskettes would not be water soluble (as in rinse off).  In addition, if in the jacket, the jacket is going to prevent the water from rinsing anything off.... and the cleaning layer will absorb water, and make drying difficult and long (with the possibility of the media sticking to the inner layer as it dries.

 

I can clean a 5.25" floppy pretty fast with a paper towl or cloth with alcohol.  I 'pinch' the media through the window, and rotate the media... Once 'cleaned', I then continue to spin the media and blow on the media to dry the alcohol until I no longer see any liquid alcohol.

 

I have not come up with a process for 3.5s yet.

 

 

[Keatah]

By the time a disk squeals in the drive during operation, it's likely the oxide and binder have bunched up, rolled, and come completely off. The frequency is around 2000Hz and can sound like a chalkboard scratch. The width of the head determines how loud it is. The damage will be visible by angular lines. And you may even see straight through the now-clear mylar substrate.

 

Washing in a dishwasher is way overkill. Best way is open the jacket and rinse with diluted dish soap if you're going after water-soluable gunk. Rub axially with a damp cloth for stubborn splotches. Wipe dry with lint-free cloth and finish up with air dry. Touch up with alcohol for non-water-soluable stains.

 

I dislike using any heat. Anything above 104-110`F. It can loosen surface contaminants AND the oxide/lube/binder coatings too. Instead let's just attack the surface contaminants themselves.

 

[leech]

I usually just dip a q-tip in alcohol, cover the windowed area, then rotate the disk within the sleeve, letting the cloth within spread the alcohol and act as a 'rub' on it.  Usually works pretty well.

I have yet to see one where stuff comes off, making it transparent!

[gilsaluki]

46 minutes ago, cwilbar said:

I wouldn't.... and don't see the point anyway....

 

What I've had to clean off of diskettes would not be water soluble (as in rinse off).  In addition, if in the jacket, the jacket is going to prevent the water from rinsing anything off.... and the cleaning layer will absorb water, and make drying difficult and long (with the possibility of the media sticking to the inner layer as it dries.

 

I can clean a 5.25" floppy pretty fast with a paper towl or cloth with alcohol.  I 'pinch' the media through the window, and rotate the media... Once 'cleaned', I then continue to spin the media and blow on the media to dry the alcohol until I no longer see any liquid alcohol.

 

I have not come up with a process for 3.5s yet.

 

 

I was joking, of course.  Thanks for the detail.

[cwilbar]

7 hours ago, gilsaluki said:

I was joking, of course.  Thanks for the detail.

I fell for the bait ?

 

 

[StickJock]

3 hours ago, cwilbar said:

I fell for the bait ?

 

 

At least he didn't give the following (really bad) advice:

 

Take a microfiber cloth and dip it in 99% alcohol, and then wrap it around a neodymium magnet.  Use this to wipe the disk media.  The magnet will draw the loose bits off of the disk surface into the microfiber cloth, keeping them from damaging your drive's read/write head or embedding themselves into the fabric liner of the disk jacket.  This is analogous to having a magnetic drain plug on your car's oil pan to keep the metal bits from damaging your engine.  Do this over the entire disk surface (turning the disk media inside the plastic jacket to expose more of the media).  If the microfiber cloth wrapped around the magnet dries out, dip it back into the alcohol.  If the microfiber cloth gets dirty, move the magnet to a clean patch and dip it back into the alcohol.  Keep it damp as the alcohol lubricates as well as cleans, and prevents the cloth from scratching the disk media.

 

This method is guaranteed to wipe your disk completely clean!  ?