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Comparison of Recently Unearthed C64 Joust Port to 7800


PacBilly

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4 hours ago, PacBilly said:

I'm posting this here because this video is as much about how the Atari 7800 version of Joust remains the very best version (better than even the arcade) as it is the C64 port. As I mention in the video, the 7800 port is the one by which all other versions should be judged.

 

C64 Joust: How does it stack up?

An even better comparison is Robotron.  The 7800 version absolutely blows the 64 version away.  The 7800 blows the 64 sound away!  The TIA is making the sid look bad!  That is one lazy/bad port.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if they screwed it up (I haven't had a chance to check it out yet).   Moon Patrol and Dig Dug are terrible too.

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C64 Atarisoft ports in general are a mixed bag. I thought the unreleased Joust and Mario Bros ports were both very good. I also think Ms. Pac-Man made an excellent transition to the C64. Defender and Pac-Man are okay, and so are Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, and Galaxian IMO. Donkey Kong would have been fine if it was faster. And Robotron on C64 is a crime against humanity.

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Wow, am I just not remembering now bad the C64 port of Robotron was? I own it, but it's been AGES since I've played it. In fact I may have played the 7800 version more recently. I remembered they both support dual-joystick mode, which is nice. Donkey Kong was like molasses.

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On 7/25/2020 at 4:39 PM, Jaden (JRH) said:

C64 Atarisoft ports in general are a mixed bag. I thought the unreleased Joust and Mario Bros ports were both very good. I also think Ms. Pac-Man made an excellent transition to the C64. Defender and Pac-Man are okay, and so are Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, and Galaxian IMO. Donkey Kong would have been fine if it was faster. And Robotron on C64 is a crime against humanity.

Pac Man is OK, but it is too much like the 5200 version. Dig Dug has a nasty bug I found the very first day I owned it as a kid.  Moon Patrol is just sloppy and ugly.  I don't think I ever played Galaxian.  I never like the 64 version of Donkey Kong very much. I did not know the British Ocean version existed until fairly recently.  A new version was made a couple of years ago that is excellent. I know I wasn't crazy about Defender, but I don't recall why. Ms Pac Man is decent though. I always liked that version.

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Clearly the C64 version is an almost straight port of the Atari 8-bit version, but with weird sounds.   It's strange that the "bounce through the gap in the platform" trick doesn't work, since we used to use that all the time on the 8-bit version.

 

But I don't agree that the 7800 version is the one that others should be judged against.   They are arcade ports, they should be trying to be more like the arcade version.   I recently compared most of the home ports, and they all get the physics wrong.   It would be nice to have home versions that match the physics of the arcade version.

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The problem with the arcade version, to me, is that flapping is a chore. The birds are too heavy. Sure, I guess it adds a bit of challenge to the experience, but it isn't as fun. In the 7800 (and I assume the Atari 8-bit) version, the birds feel lighter. You're free to concentrate on what you're going to do next without worrying about flapping finger fatigue. Or thumb fatigue, of course, but it isn't as alliterative. And I've never been a fan of the way the birds look when on the ground in the arcade version.

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7 hours ago, PacBilly said:

The problem with the arcade version, to me, is that flapping is a chore.

Well it does want you to drop more quarters in ?

 

7 hours ago, PacBilly said:

In the 7800 (and I assume the Atari 8-bit) version, the birds feel lighter. You're free to concentrate on what you're going to do next without worrying about flapping finger fatigue.

I suppose a lot comes down to the versions we grew up with.   My friends and I sunk a lot of time in the 8-bit version, and later I got the ST and Lynx versions.   Yes the birds feel lighter in all versions.   I never had a 7800 growing up, but when I play that version now, it feels way off.

 

Maybe what should be done with ports is have an "arcade" mode that mimics the feel of the arcade for those who want a faithful port,  and a "console" mode with less flapping?

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On 7/28/2020 at 9:17 AM, zzip said:

Well it does want you to drop more quarters in ?

 

I suppose a lot comes down to the versions we grew up with.   My friends and I sunk a lot of time in the 8-bit version, and later I got the ST and Lynx versions.   Yes the birds feel lighter in all versions.   I never had a 7800 growing up, but when I play that version now, it feels way off.

 

Maybe what should be done with ports is have an "arcade" mode that mimics the feel of the arcade for those who want a faithful port,  and a "console" mode with less flapping?

With the ability to play the arcade version with mame, I now appreciate a port's differences a bit more.  After all, if I want to play the arcade version, there's always mame.  But being as close to the arcade as possible was always the goal back then when mame didn't exist and computers weren't fast enough to run it anyway.

 

One thing I wish we had more of in the homebrew scene is new takes on arcade games.  The Intellivision DKII is a great example of what modern homebrews can be.  It's still Donkey Kong, but with a new twist.

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On 7/27/2020 at 10:04 AM, zzip said:

Clearly the C64 version is an almost straight port of the Atari 8-bit version, but with weird sounds.   It's strange that the "bounce through the gap in the platform" trick doesn't work, since we used to use that all the time on the 8-bit version.

 

But I don't agree that the 7800 version is the one that others should be judged against.   They are arcade ports, they should be trying to be more like the arcade version.   I recently compared most of the home ports, and they all get the physics wrong.   It would be nice to have home versions that match the physics of the arcade version.

In my mind it depends on what you're judging it on, arcade fidelity or the game itself....no, they didn't get the flap right to the arcade. As a true to arcade conversion, it has to be knocked. but in my mind, they actually did it much, much BETTER, and the arcade flap...kind of sucks. I'd say the home versions (save perhaps the NES) do the physics much BETTER than the arcade version, making for a MUCH better game.

 

 

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On 7/28/2020 at 9:17 AM, zzip said:

Well it does want you to drop more quarters in ?

 

I suppose a lot comes down to the versions we grew up with.   My friends and I sunk a lot of time in the 8-bit version, and later I got the ST and Lynx versions.   Yes the birds feel lighter in all versions.   I never had a 7800 growing up, but when I play that version now, it feels way off.

 

Maybe what should be done with ports is have an "arcade" mode that mimics the feel of the arcade for those who want a faithful port,  and a "console" mode with less flapping?

That's interesting to me. I played the 8 bit version growing up as well. Only got into 7800 as an adult. But aside from graphics I find the 8 bit and 7800 version play VERY closely to each other, and my "moves" or techniques all carry over just fine. Well, except for the egg hatching difference. That kind of changes things a bit.

 

I have been lobbying for several years, asking for an intrepid 7800 programmer to add the Colecovision Joust options screen to the 7800 ROM. Have even offered a bounty! Maybe it's time to bump that again. It seems like it could be a fit for you as well.

 

Joust option screen...

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2 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

In my mind it depends on what you're judging it on, arcade fidelity or the game itself....no, they didn't get the flap right to the arcade. As a true to arcade conversion, it has to be knocked. but in my mind, they actually did it much, much BETTER, and the arcade flap...kind of sucks. I'd say the home versions (save perhaps the NES) do the physics much BETTER than the arcade version, making for a MUCH better game.

I judge arcade ports against the arcade.    Unless it's something like "Defender 2000" or "Pacman Championship Edition" where it's intended to be re imagined.

 

With the arcade flap, I get that might cause thumb fatigue when using the Atari Joystick.   On the other hand, on some of these ports the flap is too powerful, and before you know it you are bouncing off the ceiling, and under an enemy when you thought you were going to have the upper hand.

 

Another difference is every home port seems to have a different "slide distance" when stopping your bird on the ground.   Some stop almost immediately while others slide halfway across the ledge

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1 hour ago, zzip said:

I judge arcade ports against the arcade.    Unless it's something like "Defender 2000" or "Pacman Championship Edition" where it's intended to be re imagined.

 

With the arcade flap, I get that might cause thumb fatigue when using the Atari Joystick.   On the other hand, on some of these ports the flap is too powerful, and before you know it you are bouncing off the ceiling, and under an enemy when you thought you were going to have the upper hand.

 

Another difference is every home port seems to have a different "slide distance" when stopping your bird on the ground.   Some stop almost immediately while others slide halfway across the ledge

Makes sense of course! But sometime the home version is just better, even in a non-reimagined way.

 

Another difference is the lava hands no? I seem to recall that some home versions don't have this, in some they're animated differently, and the "reach" distance I think varies by platform.

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22 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

Makes sense of course! But sometime the home version is just better, even in a non-reimagined way.

 

Another difference is the lava hands no? I seem to recall that some home versions don't have this, in some they're animated differently, and the "reach" distance I think varies by platform.

Yeah the lava hand varies a bit too.   I think it's easier to escape on some platforms than others.   I remember we'd  purposly fly low on the Atari8 version to be grabbed, but flap just enough to prevent the hand from pulling us in

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/24/2020 at 5:15 PM, PacBilly said:

I'm posting this here because this video is as much about how the Atari 7800 version of Joust remains the very best version (better than even the arcade) as it is the C64 port. As I mention in the video, the 7800 port is the one by which all other versions should be judged.

 

C64 Joust: How does it stack up?

 

What? I highly doubt GCC coded the C64 version, thus it's not a port of the 7800 version.

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  • 2 months later...
On 9/8/2020 at 6:40 PM, Lynxpro said:

 

What? I highly doubt GCC coded the C64 version, thus it's not a port of the 7800 version.

Sorry if my wording was unclear. I only mean that the 7800 version is the best version. The C64 version is kind of a port of the Atari 8-bit version. To me, faithfulness to the arcade is immaterial if the arcade's gameplay is less fun. With games, everything else should bow down to the fun factor, and I think the 7800 is easily the best version in that regard. Also, and this is just a matter of preference, I prefer the proportions of the 7800 sprites to the arcade version's sprites.

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Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Joust. The original arcade version looks better, but the Atari 7800 version plays better.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Asteroids. Asteroids Deluxe arcade version perhaps looks better, but does not play better. Plus, two-player Asteroids simultaneously on the Atari 7800 is pure amazeballs.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Centipede, if you play two-player simultaneously.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Donkey Kong, and I'm not talking about the original Atari 7800 cartridge. I'm referring to the Donkey Kong PK version.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun versions of all of the Pac-Man games.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Burgertime.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Frogger.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Q*bert.

 

Atari 2600 has the most fun version of Battlezone. Imagine that. And it plays, perfectly, on the Atari 7800.

 

Atari 2600 has the most fun version of Galaga. It's hard to believe, but true. It actually is more fun than the native Atari 7800 version, and luckily, the Atari 7800 can play it just fine. (The Atari 7800 version is still quite fun if you crank up the difficulty a bit.)

 

There's a reason the Atari 7800 is undergoing a renaissance. It's simply the best retro arcade port console gaming platform, beating even arcade emulation.

 

Plus Ninja Golf. Atari 7800 is the native platform for the original Ninja Golf!

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On 12/7/2020 at 5:28 PM, MrZarniwoop said:

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Joust. The original arcade version looks better, but the Atari 7800 version plays better.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Asteroids. Asteroids Deluxe arcade version perhaps looks better, but does not play better. Plus, two-player Asteroids simultaneously on the Atari 7800 is pure amazeballs.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Centipede, if you play two-player simultaneously.

 

 

 

The Atari 7800 version of Centipede is the most fun in co-op mode if you have the Centipede-TB version and 2 Trak-Balls. Otherwise, the Atari 5200 owns it if you have the CX53 Trak-Ball controller. And it has POKEY audio.

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On 12/7/2020 at 8:28 PM, MrZarniwoop said:

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Joust. The original arcade version looks better, but the Atari 7800 version plays better.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Asteroids. Asteroids Deluxe arcade version perhaps looks better, but does not play better. Plus, two-player Asteroids simultaneously on the Atari 7800 is pure amazeballs.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Centipede, if you play two-player simultaneously.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Donkey Kong, and I'm not talking about the original Atari 7800 cartridge. I'm referring to the Donkey Kong PK version.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun versions of all of the Pac-Man games.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Burgertime.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Frogger.

 

Atari 7800 has the most fun version of Q*bert.

 

Atari 2600 has the most fun version of Battlezone. Imagine that. And it plays, perfectly, on the Atari 7800.

 

Atari 2600 has the most fun version of Galaga. It's hard to believe, but true. It actually is more fun than the native Atari 7800 version, and luckily, the Atari 7800 can play it just fine. (The Atari 7800 version is still quite fun if you crank up the difficulty a bit.)

 

There's a reason the Atari 7800 is undergoing a renaissance. It's simply the best retro arcade port console gaming platform, beating even arcade emulation.

 

Plus Ninja Golf. Atari 7800 is the native platform for the original Ninja Golf!

Frogee is absolutely outstanding. By far the best home version of frogger, at least as far as the 8 bits are concerned. 

Beefdrop is pretty good, but it is up against pretty stiff competition.  The Intellivision and Colecovision versions are outstanding. Though not as thorough as 7800 Pac Man Collection, Colecovision has the Pac Man Collection cartridge which is outstanding. 7800 definitely has the best looking 8-bit version of Qbert. The 7800 version of Frenzy outshines the Colecovision version.

 

I do wish the 7800 had more early to mid 80s arcade conversions.  Pacmanplus seems to be trying to fill that hole though.  Would love to see Mr Do!, Crush Roller, Millipede, Spy Hunter, Zoo Keeper (being worked on right now), Arabian, Bubble Bobble and other games from that era.

 

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  • 3 months later...

Lots of good points already said, but I will give my humble thoughts as well into the mix, for whatever they might be worth.

 

I tested this thing on a real C64 with a bright CRT television, expecting, if not a perfect conversion of the great arcade classic, at least a game that can somewhat compete with the excellent Atari 8-bit version (I don't have Atari 7800, so I just use my Atari 800 XL to play Joust - it's better than the Atari 2600 version, so I have no complaints).

 

However, this C64-version of Joust (that was recently 'found') is atrocious. The gameplay itself is not that bad, actually, it does play like Joust, normal 'Joust reflexes' work just fine with this game.

 

But holy cow, how did they mess up so much?

 

The border being almost white (brightest grey, I think), really hurts the eyes immediately, and makes it hard to focus on the game. It's like putting bright lightbulbs around your monitor and then trying to see what's going on (try this on a bright CRT television for maximum effect). Atrocious! Why did they do that? The border should've been black. What were they thinking? Maybe the dev's monitor was breaking down or really bad, so they chose these atrocious, overly bright colors (why yellow instead of orange? C64 is perfectly capable of creating good-looking Joust-graphics, but they just messed it up for some reason). They should've tested on a normal CRT television back in the day.

 

This color thing is really murder on the eyes, because besides everything else, it makes the game really ugly. Ugh.

 

The sounds - HOW do they mess up the sound so badly? The SID can do wonderful sound effects, I don't think there's a soul in the Universe that unironically denies this. And yet here we are, the sounds are like someone did some quick random routine that pokes SID a little bit and that's it. How do they mess up the sound _THIS_ bad?

 

My beloved C64 deserves better, dagnabit. Thank goodness for my lovely Atari 800 XL, otherwise I wouldn't have a great home port of this game to play on a real system. Arcade version is of course wonderful, especially with my 'authentic' arcade controllers, but a home computer port is sometimes just so nice, when you can play it on your real computer instead of relying on emulation.

 

Every sound effect was so bad that even I could make better ones. Probably in BASIC, too.

 

Give me Pokey's classic sound effects any day. I don't want to even touch this C64-version any more than I already have, and I feel I have been somehow contaminated. Disgusting. This game could be so good on the C64, there's no reason why it shouldn't - the C64 is perfectly capable of a single-screen game with sprites flying around, and re-creating the coin-up graphics 'relatively well', everything considered. Just look at BMX Simulator for similarly 'orange' theme, and the graphics look just fine.

 

Sometimes there's no justice in the world.. (I am now a bit curious about that Atari 7800 version, perhaps I'll give an emulator a go and check it out - but between the optimal coin-up version and the excellent Atari 800 XL-version (calling it 'Atari 8-bit' can be a bit confusing), I am not sure I need more versions..)

 

There seems to be a lot of love for the Atari 7800 - and as I recall, it has lots of colors and not many sprite limitations, so technically it could do marvels. However, its sound chip seems to be the same or similar to Atari 2600s..

 

In any case, Atari 7800 seems fine, but why no love for the Atari 800 line of computers? Personally, I just love my Atari 800 XL so much, I feel a bit miffed that no one mentions how great its ports usually are. Joust is brilliant, and the newer things like Scramble and Time Pilot are just superb fun all around!

 

Also, I don't think you can categorically say some version is "the most fun", because 'fun' is incredibly subjective, and how do you even measure two separate 'funs' anyway? What's not 'fun' about the C64 or Atari 800 XL-version of Frogger? I love them both, they're great fun'! Even if TO YOU, Atari 7800-version is more fun, it doesn't mean that's universally so - it could be that to me, it's more fun to play on an actual system than emulator, for example..

 

I kinda doubt the claim that Atari 7800-version of Joust plays BETTER than the Arcade (at least until I can confirm it for myself).

 

Arcade is usually the vision come to life, the most optimal and optimized version of any game - after all, they did need to appeal instantly to audience with short attention spans and quarters in their pockets.

 

In any case, yeah, C64-version of Robotron is bad, maybe even worse than any other version I've played - Atari 800 XL-version, however, is pretty darn good, and an excellent game in my opinion. Super Famicom-version is nice also, though it's called 'Smash TV' or something like that.

 

 

 

Edited by Monk
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I guess I am a Joust purist. I like the 7800 (and Lynx and ST) ports a lot in different ways, but I love the physicality of the arcade game and the way you’ve really gotta wail on that flap button almost like Track and Field. Also the one-axis joystick.

 

I’m very sad that the CoCo Joust homage Pegasus and the Phantom Riders has never been ported to other systems as homebrew. It’s probably the best-looking CoCo game I can think of offhand and it gets the magic of Joust right and even adds to it, while having the “lighter” feel that a lot of people in this thread like. (Even so it was responsible for the death of several CoCo joystick buttons.) Sadly it’s too obscure for many people to have even heard of much less played much less put the hours in to develop a clone from scratch.

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On 4/10/2021 at 8:15 PM, Monk said:

But holy cow, how did they mess up so much?

 

The border being almost white (brightest grey, I think), really hurts the eyes immediately, and makes it hard to focus on the game. It's like putting bright lightbulbs around your monitor and then trying to see what's going on (try this on a bright CRT television for maximum effect). Atrocious! Why did they do that? The border should've been black. What were they thinking? Maybe the dev's monitor was breaking down or really bad, so they chose these atrocious, overly bright colors (why yellow instead of orange? C64 is perfectly capable of creating good-looking Joust-graphics, but they just messed it up for some reason). They should've tested on a normal CRT television back in the day.

Well it was unfinished..   I would hope that a release version would be more polished.   I agree that the border is the biggest issue graphically,  but I would think that should be an easy for someone to fix, no?

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On 4/10/2021 at 8:15 PM, Monk said:

There seems to be a lot of love for the Atari 7800 - and as I recall, it has lots of colors and not many sprite limitations, so technically it could do marvels. However, its sound chip seems to be the same or similar to Atari 2600s..

 

In any case, Atari 7800 seems fine, but why no love for the Atari 800 line of computers? Personally, I just love my Atari 800 XL so much, I feel a bit miffed that no one mentions how great its ports usually are. Joust is brilliant, and the newer things like Scramble and Time Pilot are just superb fun all around!

A lot of people swear by the 7800 version.   I find it awkward, and it's far from my favorite.   I prefer the Atari 8-bit and ST versions

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I found the AC Frogger to be quite a chore with the occasional input drops and odd slowdowns. Definitely like a few of the home ports much better, including Froggie and the supercharger 2600 port. There is a nice bug fix hack of the AC version, though. 

 

Not sure what my favorite home version of Joust is, but I'm going to test the Lynx, SGB, GBC, NES, SNES, and Genesis versions to see if that going through the gap trick works. 

 

Edited by BrianC
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