SIDE 3 preorder

[Jacques]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:35 AM, flashjazzcat said:

Primarily cartridge emulation, all handled from the loader you're used to using (the SIDE loader). In your case - with U1MB present - you can mount cartridges (ROM and CAR files stored in the FAT on the SD card), ATR disk images, and APT HDD partitions and use them all at the same time. It's currently the only solution which integrates cartridge emulation with the existing U1MB/SIDE 'ecosystem'.

 

Just a quick question, is U1MB required for cartridge emulation or can SIDE3 do it alone, too?

Edited October 7, 2020 by Jacques

[candle]

u1mb is only required for PBI interface functions

in stand alone mode:

cartridges, xex loading, partial atr handling

atr has some limitations as it is with any other device that uses soft-os approach

 

in u1mb mode:

as above + full atr/apt support

 

[Marius]

53 minutes ago, Jacques said:

 

Just a quick question, is U1MB required for cartridge emulation or can SIDE3 do it alone, too?

I think you have just described the strength of SIDE3 here. 

 

You can mount a cart (loaded from FAT32), and start SDX and have them together running on a stock Atari (with enough memory of course).

You also can mount a cart (loaded from FAT32) without SDX of course, on a stock Atari.

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

10 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Some measurements call for a micrometer; some for a yardstick.  
 

EDIT: But just to be clear, I do have calipers. 
 

 

SIDE2 case looks to be about 68mm wide to me. SIDE3 casing as measured in the photo is 65.5mm wide? And it still doesn't fit the 1200XL? I find this puzzling, since I only had to shave a total of 0.5mm or less off each side of the SIDE2 shell (resulting in 66.5-67mm total width) to allow it to fit in a standard 1200XL cart tunnel.

Edited October 7, 2020 by flashjazzcat
Decimal places!

[toddtmw]

9 hours ago, leech said:

Missed opportunity for saying "back off man, I'm a scientist"    I should watch that again...

I tried to tee it up for him. ?

[StickJock]

24 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

SIDE2 case looks to be about 6.8mm wide to me. SIDE3 casing as measured in the photo is 6.55mm wide? And it still doesn't fit the 1200XL? I find this puzzling, since I only had to shave a total of 0.5mm or less off each side of the SIDE2 shell (resulting in 6.65-6.7mm total width) to allow it to fit in a standard 1200XL cart tunnel.

Methinks your units are off a smidge....  ?

 

Either that, or those pics have a 10x zoom going on!

 

But what do I know?  I'm in the land of inches, feet & miles.  Although I am happy to say that I am getting well over 30 furlongs per pint of gasoline in my car!

 

[flashjazzcat]

6 minutes ago, StickJock said:

Methinks your units are off a smidge....  ?

 

Either that, or those pics have a 10x zoom going on!

Thanks - you are 100 per cent (or 10 per cent) correct. Candle also kindly pointed out my mistake. Post was edited, apparently after you quoted it.

[candle]

i

4 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Thanks - you are 100 per cent (or 10 per cent) correct. Candle also kindly pointed out my mistake. Post was edited, apparently after you quoted it.

in two, out of 3 places...

[flashjazzcat]

It was actually 2/4 places.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[flashjazzcat]

Known issue with 512KB (and possibly other) Sic! images. Looking into it. Thanks to the person who pointed this out.

 

[+DrVenkman]

So, a few quirks/questions about SIDE3 now that I can play around a little bit with it.  First off, the physical dimensions again ... As noted earlier, I have already filed away enough material on my 1200XL cartridge tunnel to let it fit (albeit tightly). However, this is kind of annoying; even with the tunnel filed, the cartridge connector housing itself is very tight. And here’s why - the second photo shows that the cartridge width is still just a tiny bit wider than the width of the cartridge connector housing. It’s not a lot, but as a result, it still requires some degree of unnatural force to insert and make good contact with the cartridge connector.

 

Now, as to usability. With SDX disabled on the Ultimate 1MB, I can boot SDX off the SIDE3 and I have used FDISK to partition about half of the SD card for APT partitions, then formatted them using the SDX FORMAT command. However, if I put the cart into the Loader (switch up) and then boot SDX from the Ultimate 1MB, I cannot even see the APT partitions. I presume that’s because we still need the U1MB BIOS build Jon is working on.

 

Booting SDX from the SIDE3 still has some issues - for instance, something is very weird with the screen editor when I boot from the cart - I have no key repeat, for instance. Every key press must be individual. Another weird thing - when I try to run TD to get the on-screen time/date display, it get a very odd error message (forgot to take a photo, sorry!), even if I go the CAR: device first, and even if I type out the full “TD.COM” command.

 

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

39 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

So, a few quirks/questions about SIDE3 now that I can play around a little bit with it.  First off, the physical dimensions again ... As noted earlier, I have already filed away enough material on my 1200XL cartridge tunnel to let it fit (albeit tightly). However, this is kind of annoying; even with the tunnel filed, the cartridge connector housing itself is very tight. And here’s why - the second photo shows that the cartridge width is still just a tiny bit wider than the width of the cartridge connector housing. It’s not a lot, but as a result, it still requires some degree of unnatural force to insert and make good contact with the cartridge connector.

I'm still puzzled. Since the SIDE3 housing appears to be ~2.5mm narrower than the SIDE2 housing beyond the 'stepped' section, I imagine the same is true of the narrower stepped section right next to the connector. When filing down SIDE2 carts in the past, I certainly didn't have to shave off plastic to a depth of 1.25mm at either side of the casing to get it to fit. But it was certainly quite stiff, nevertheless.

 

Are we basically saying it fits, but it's a tight fit? In any case: hopefully in a week I'll be able to see for myself.

42 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

However, if I put the cart into the Loader (switch up) and then boot SDX from the Ultimate 1MB, I cannot even see the APT partitions. I presume that’s because we still need the U1MB BIOS build Jon is working on.

Correct.

43 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Booting SDX from the SIDE3 still has some issues

The on-board SDX ROM isn't yet finalised, as far as I can tell.

[+DrVenkman]

2 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I'm still puzzled. Since the SIDE3 housing appears to be ~2.5mm narrower than the SIDE2 housing beyond the 'stepped' section, I imagine the same is true of the narrower stepped section right next to the connector. When filing down SIDE2 carts in the past, I certainly didn't have to shave off plastic to a depth of 1.25mm at either side of the casing to get it to fit. But it was certainly quite stiff, nevertheless.

 

Are we basically saying it fits, but it's a tight fit? In any case: hopefully in a week I'll be able to see for myself.

I don’t know if the SIDE3 shell is much narrower than SIDE2 - In prior usage with SIDE2, I initially sanded down my cartridge tunnel a bit several years ago, then decided instead to “fine tune” things by sanding the cartridge shell a bit further rather than keep working on the tunnel. 

 

Now, in replacing SIDE2 with SIDE3, I realized the cartridge tunnel is a tighter fit - obviously, that’s because I had not sanded the SIDE3 shell. Given the translucent plastic used, I decided to simply take a bit more off the the cart tunnel. But insertion into the PCB-mounted cartridge guide/connector shell is still very tight, as it has not been modified at all. 

 

You can see the internal diameter caliper measurements above, and that width does not allow the SIDE3 to slide in without some degree of force. 

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

8 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I don’t know if the SIDE3 shell is much narrower than SIDE2

I can only go by the (unmodified) SIDE2 I measured here this morning, and it's ~68mm wide. I know my sums have been off today, but that's 2.5mm wider than your SIDE3, correct?

 

Like I say: the customer SIDE2 shells I have sanded down to fit 1200XLs with unmodified cart tunnels have been snug fits to say the least, but I never shaved off 1.25mm of material (otherwise I would have probably completely obliterated both sides of the cartridge shell).

 

EDIT: Looking at your measurements, the tunnel does appear to be the exact same width (64mm) as the cartridge shell. I guess it will be tight.

Edited October 7, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I can only go by the (unmodified) SIDE2 I measured here this morning, and it's ~68mm wide. I know my sums have been off today, but that's 2.5mm wider than your SIDE3, correct?

 

Like I say: the customer SIDE2 shells I have sanded down to fit 1200XLs with unmodified cart tunnels have been snug fits to say the least, but I never shaved off 1.25mm of material (otherwise I would have probably completely obliterated both sides of the cartridge shell).

 

 

Unfortunately, I have only the one SIDE2 cart, and its shell has been sanded down. Right now, at its widest part, it is 65mm wide, almost exactly. The (unmodified) SIDE3 is wider still, as the same calipers cannot slide down over the width of the SIDE3.

 

More importantly, the internal width of the unmodified cartridge connector shell on the 1200XL (not the case tunnel) is only ~64mm. Ideally, no A8 cartridge shell should thus be wider than 63.5mm or so if one is concerned about fitting in a 1200XL. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by DrVenkman
pics

[flashjazzcat]

Thanks for all those measurements Herb. That's good going on the SIDE2 shell to get 3mm off the width. Maybe there is some variation in the width of those casings.

 

There is ultimately no substitute for actually trying the case in a 1200XL. Hopefully this isn't the first time it was ever attempted.

[+DrVenkman]

Well, I realize the measurements are no help for current shell designs but at least the posts and pics will be searchable if in the future someone is designing anything new for the cartridge port and wants to know if it will fit in the 1200XL. 

 

The uncased PCB fits fine, of course. I am tempted to remove the little copper support tab from this 1200XL’s cartridge guide and just run SIDE3 as a bare board for awhile - if nothing else, that gives better access to the sliding switch. But hopefully once the U1MB SIDE3-specific BIOS is ready, I’ll have no real reason to use the switch with this machine. 

[TGB1718]

Just had a closer look at mine after seeing your issues with the 1200XL, I noticed the first time I tried to insert SIDE3

into my 130XE I had some issues, it didn't seem to want to go in, I had to pick the 130XE up so I could see where/how to 

insert it (I know the 130XE is a pain for inserting cartridges, but not had a problem before).

 

Did some measurements myself and I found the distance from the edge of the cartridge to the face of the circuit board

to be just slightly different, it's only tiny, but does mean you have to tilt the cartridge just a bit for it to go in cleanly.

 

Now in the 1200XL, it's going down a tunnel and is probably going in straight and this slight offset on the PCB might just

be enough to make it a bit stiffer to insert.

 

Just a thought

 

[flashjazzcat]

12 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I am tempted to remove the little copper support tab from this 1200XL’s cartridge guide and just run SIDE3 as a bare board for awhile - if nothing else, that gives better access to the sliding switch. But hopefully once the U1MB SIDE3-specific BIOS is ready, I’ll have no real reason to use the switch with this machine. 

Good point regarding the switch. The ergonomics of the 1200XL don't really lend themselves well to anything with front-mounted controls.

9 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

I noticed the first time I tried to insert SIDE3into my 130XE I had some issues

XEs are ubiquitous in Poland so we can be sure that the existing shell design has been well tested with these machines.

Edited October 7, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[+DrVenkman]

8 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

Now in the 1200XL, it's going down a tunnel and is probably going in straight and this slight offset on the PCB might just

be enough to make it a bit stiffer to insert.

It’s basically like the SIDE2 shell in that regard - I’ll note that no metal-cased Atari, Inc. cartridges have any problems like this, nor do Steve Tucker’s AtariMax shells (I’ve got his repro Action! and MAC/65 carts). 

 

The issue is purely one of width - if you literally have a bit of “wiggle room”, it’s no trouble to insert the cart. There’s just very damned little of it (none, without modifying the tunnel or the shell), and wiggling is really difficult to get the cartridge PCB seated into the edge connector. 

[flashjazzcat]

You could always grease it up.

 

[TGB1718]

3 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

You could always grease it up.

Baby oil

 

[flashjazzcat]

Perhaps on another day Lotharek might laugh if I suggest he provides this with SIDE3 instead of the sweets:

[fenrock]

Finally got my U1Mb installed in my newly refurbished 800XL, managed a quick game of Missile Command, and then booted to Side3.

I had to "boot side cart without button", couldn't seem to get it to work on the "with button" option (I was powering on with the button held down on top of side 3 as a guess - is this correct?).

 

Here's a quick photo. Still waiting on a Composite to HDMI that Amazon delivery insisted he handed to me today (but didn't), so having to plug into my Sony Bravia 50" TV which is the only thing with composite in at the moment:

 

 

I have yet to put any files on the FAT disk, but assume the order will be:

 

1. Get latest U1Mb ROM (When Jon has finished it) and uflash.exe it - in the mean time i should be able to flash latest anyway

2. partition the sd card and copy on files - only xex will work at the moment

3. win

 

how will the side3 be updated when the spartados work is complete?

sorry if these are simple questions.

Edited October 7, 2020 by fenrock
with button extra text

[flashjazzcat]

2 minutes ago, fenrock said:

I had to "boot side cart without button", couldn't seem to get it to work on the "with button" option (I was powering on with the button held down on top of side 3 as a guess - is this correct?).

Please leave the PBI HDD disabled entirely until I get the new U1MB firmware released. Having the ATR button enabled will stop the SIDE3 from booting (these settings are intended solely for SIDE2). You can still use the PBI SIO driver for high speed serial IO in the meantime.

4 minutes ago, fenrock said:

how will the side3 be updated when the spartados work is complete?

I have a loader update to issue more or less right off the bat since bugs were already discovered. The loader is delivered via a self-contained XEX flasher which requires no extra RAM or anything fancy. SDX can be updated using the standard 'DLT flasher' ATR, meanwhile.